Who is , or will be , the Dell of ebikes ?

[Denis Shelston]

Court had a brief interview with Sondors at the beach Demo Day.....

I think Sondors feeds on the negativity. These are not well rounded companies with deep management teams. It's all Sondors, all the time. Sondors has a history of not getting along with people. It's the exact problem Luna has. The risk of flame-out is substantial. Dell was a biz skool kind of company. You only need an egomaniac for so long. Where's the real management team, for the ebikes and the cars?

Always a pleasure to read you, well said. I was with Dell when they opened up their first office in Canada, in 1986'ish. Michael Dell was a visionary for sure.

I remember in the early 80's seeing William Gates III at COMDEX in Toronto, he was the keynote speaker for this computer geek conference. I was one of maybe 100 others, in a 2000 seat venue... One thing he said struck a bell , and still with me to this day: "I will hire the best of the best, and I will let them do their job, I'm a computer guy but I need to hire the skills I need to succeed". Later that year he struck a deal with IBM to provide them with a version of MS-DOS, PC-DOS. The rest is, well, history. I should have bought stock that day... but 3 kids, a loving wife, a big mortgage and life were more important. Darn.

I suggest Sondors could take a few clues from the past.

 

[AlexS]

It is funny how this little cottage industry of ebikes cares about the personalities involved. It should be just about the bikes they are building and the price they are offering them at, but that is lost on so many. So many care which business owners personality they like the best. So stupid. I guess the ebike community is very small and dominated by geeks and oldsters so it makes sense.

 

[George S.]

It is funny how this little cottage industry of ebikes cares about the personalities involved. It should be just about the bikes they are building and the price they are offering them at, but that is lost on so many. So many care which business owners personality they like the best. So stupid. I guess the ebike community is very small and dominated by geeks and oldsters so it makes sense.

It could get big, of course. Sondors is trying to raise 50 million dollars, selling shares in his ebike company. At that point you have to assess the company and the managers, as well as the bikes. I guess Court has an impossible job, trying to sort through the companies and the personalities, and just look at the bikes. Maybe Court should really encourage user reviews and give them a place on the site. It should be about the bikes and, for the DIY people, the motors and the batteries, other parts. It would be a lot cleaner that way.

 

[rich c]

It could get big, of course. Sondors is trying to raise 50 million dollars, selling shares in his ebike company. At that point you have to assess the company and the managers, as well as the bikes.

Do you really think he has managers?

 

[e-boy]

On second thought , the growth of the eBike industry may take a different path .
An Amazon Basics offering for example could drive mass market adoption .

 

[George S.]

Do you really think he has managers?

Sondors might raise 2 million dollars, at the pace he is on. His plan is for a lot of little stores. That would require managers, but it's down the road. Right now there is a "Team" tab in the stock offering material, but it only lists one person. He has a brand, some products, and some interesting ideas for the future.

 

[rich c]

I ran a custom woodworking business years ago. As a sole proprietor, I discovered that I was the business, and it had no value without me. Same with Mr. Sondors. Suppose his aspergers worsens? Suppose he gets hit by a bus? Too risky for my money! I do see a little improvement with customer service, but I still read about people just buying replacement parts instead of wasting time with the company. A tough road ahead to open "little stores" since it will then require a management team. Not close to his current business model.

 

[Alex M]

I don't think there is a Michael Dell for E-bikes currently. Not in the US or Canada.
....
If anything, there could be a knight in shining armour, on his white E-bike in Europe or Asia . They accept cycling as a true form of transportation, truly. Let's hope we get an E-bikewagen of sorts, priced right. There is a market there, socially acceptable.

There is no Michael Dell, and there isn't going to be. Not in the US/Canada, not anywhere. For several reasons:

1) If such a knight appears, then - as noted by others - the design will be taken over by zillions of Behemoth manufacturers in Asia. Not always "bought" but very often - copied. Easy to do, since a) there are little to none details to patent/copyright, b) patent/copyright doesn't seem to deter copycats in Asia, and c) the knight himself would be only too happy to provide blueprints and engineers to begin manufacturing in Asia. They won't have to buy him out - he will sell out.

2) Despite bikes being a popular form of transportation in Asia (mostly "bikes", not "ebikes", and not same popular in Europe), it is not likely that major technological breakthroughs will come from Asia. Hasn't happened so far, and would be against the very spirit where diligence and persistence are valued above creative thinking, and immediate results - above talents.

3) There is no universal demand for ebikes like there is for PC/laptops because there is no universal functionality. There is also no universal hardware.
OTH, different users can use same model of PC/laptop for either school, or work or entertainment. They now marketing different models for business, gaming, college etc, but you can still use same model for all of this - or upgrade the components like videocard, RAM, SSD.

The bottom line is, - you can't really compare ebikes to computers, they are 2 different phenomena. Hardware, software and accessories of computers are highly interchangeable. Ebikes have no universal software like Windows, a firmware of a motor is hardly an equivalent in complexity and functionality, it's not a standalone product and is not interchangeable with other brands motors.

Different uses, different structure, different times. Mostly - different times. Remember IBM computers? Many people already don't. Was a good product, seemed like it was going to be there forever, and then it was suddenly no more. (No, they didn't go bankrupt).

Most viable/reliable business model for ebikes, IMO, is "Lego". Interchangeable motors, batteries, connectors, displays. This all is already there, and A LOT of popular ebikes are assembled of such standard parts, only frame varies. Bafang dies, no big deal, replace it with some other "kingfang", "quickpower", "goldmotor" etc, like you do with RAM, SSD, keyboard.

Btw, I don't like Dell - had their PC once, it would only accept a certain brand of HDD

 

[Cornishman]

No one is more passionate with the automobile than we are are. No one, period.

.

I'm sure there are a few million Europeans who would disagree with that statement. Starting with me. As far as I can see the USA is far more interested in nostalgia than passion where motor vehicles are concerned. Luckily we are pretty passionate about cycling too.

 

[ncreighton]

E-Bikes popularity has exploded over the past 2 maybe 3 years. It is only going to get bigger. When something gets big the "BIG GUYS" always step in. Yamaha and other big names are going to flood the market with the "new" best e-bike very soon. It's like the sang "the rich get richer" or "it takes money to get money" basically the little guys that are around making damn good e-bikes right now will be flushed out of business soon enough with uproar with e-bike popularity.

 

[Motorknee]

Is this even possible in the US at the moment? Unlike Asia and Europe where bikes are actually seen as a legitimate means of transportation most of what I've seen in the States is that biking is seen more as a recreational activity with only a tiny number (relatively speaking) of users. This isn't just limited to ebikes, when I ride a bike in my small town for every 5 persons who actually seem to be using their bikes to go to the market or work or whatever there seem to be 15 bikers riding high-end road bikes with the spandex getup which I just can't see being apoted by non-entusiasts. Even in places like Washington DC and Portland that are seen as super-bike friendly the number of bikers you see are a very small number compared to car users. So long as gas costs are so low here and the use of cars so high what little infrastructure there is for bikes seems to be, at best, an afterthought. Hopefully I'm totally wrong but seeing how the bikes that are talked about the most are high priced, very top of the line bikes it seems that the bike makers are looking to become the next Ferrari and not too concerned about building the next Toyota Corolla.

Couldn’t agree more. We barely have sidewalks in several of our cities in this country. Only drastic events like an oil crisis would make people in this country possibly change their attitude towards bikes or even just plain walking. Cars have more right of way than pedestrians and bikes if you look closely.

I’m seen as an oddity just because I bike to work, just because I have four bikes (two road—commuters, one touring, one mountain). “Why do you have so many bikes??” Some of those who ask have more than two motorized vehicles.

In any case, I plan to buy an electric bike at some point. But I want all the standards, assurance, performance, reliability, and value from e-bike companies that car companies offer their buyers.

I’m optimistic that the day will come. We just need an oil crisis. And that’s surely coming. Maybe sooner than most of us think.

 

[pxpaulx]

In any case, I plan to buy an electric bike at some point. But I want all the standards, assurance, performance, reliability, and value from e-bike companies that car companies offer their buyers.

I’m optimistic that the day will come.

I have an idea related to this, need to put pen to paper so to speak, but you are 100% right.

The last hurdle for ebikes in the US is commuting - for that to happen I think the US market needs longer assured warranty and the ability to have fast turn-around service. Right now the only way to have a bike serviced quickly is to do it yourself. Regular bike shops are reluctant to even sell ebikes(ebike specific excepted). It is partially an internet age conundrum - you hear it around here pretty regularly - shop local so you have a place for service. What happens when you discover your local service mechanic learned everything from youtube anyway (as I did)? I don't put much faith in that over my own work.

There are a lot of rhetorical questions (some valid - warranty; some less so - range anxiety) that keep people from accepting ebikes as a viable solution for commuting. While I agree in the end it'll take something like $8/gallon gas as a final straw, providing long term responses to things like warranty and fast service are the other keys to the kingdom as it were.

A final thought - I think range anxiety is very close to being a non-issue. 600wh is becoming the norm, 3 years ago 400 was tops (will it a 1kw in another 3 years...in the same size casing?) - I'm a big guy and know I can get 40+ miles out of 600wh capacity, most people can easily get 60 or more - who needs to ride 60 miles a day for commuting? (not many). That coupled with 1,000 recharge cycles gets 10s of thousands of miles, and these little motors are built very well to withstand that amount of use. Range anxiety will shortly be a thing of the past for ebikes, that'll leave warranty and peace of mind as the remaining hurdles.

 

[elyhim]

Guys, Trek has 12 new 2018 E-MTB models in Europe. You aren't seeing it in the USA because it's not the billion dollar market it is in Europe but its coming.

 

[pxpaulx]

Guys, Trek has 12 new 2018 E-MTB models in Europe. You aren't seeing it in the USA because it's not the billion dollar market it is in Europe but its coming.

The problem with the regular bike brands is that non ebike dealers don't want to sell our service them.

 

[e-boy]

"The fastest-growing price point for e-bikes at the moment is $2,000-$2,499"
"Trek leads the electric bike market ahead of Electra, Specialized, Raleigh, and Giant – with 42 percent of sales focused on transit/fitness, ahead of lifestyle designs at 25 percent. Since independent bike shops often are moving the most electric bikes, it’s a welcome business opportunity for shops on tight budgets."
https://techaeris.com/2017/11/10/electric-bikes-winning-consumers/

 

[John from Connecticut]

Is this even possible in the US at the moment? Unlike Asia and Europe where bikes are actually seen as a legitimate means of transportation most of what I've seen in the States is that biking is seen more as a recreational activity with only a tiny number (relatively speaking) of users. This isn't just limited to ebikes, when I ride a bike in my small town for every 5 persons who actually seem to be using their bikes to go to the market or work or whatever there seem to be 15 bikers riding high-end road bikes with the spandex getup which I just can't see being apoted by non-entusiasts. Even in places like Washington DC and Portland that are seen as super-bike friendly the number of bikers you see are a very small number compared to car users. So long as gas costs are so low here and the use of cars so high what little infrastructure there is for bikes seems to be, at best, an afterthought. Hopefully I'm totally wrong but seeing how the bikes that are talked about the most are high priced, very top of the line bikes it seems that the bike makers are looking to become the next Ferrari and not too concerned about building the next Toyota Corolla.

Hello.
I completely agree. My opinion.... Based on just good old observations and general conversations I've had with folks about bike riding, there never will be a
Michael Dell of e-Bike in the US. Cycling in the main stay is going no where. ( No pun intended ) I talk up the value and virtues and how I love my e-Bike,
to most anyone capable of riding hoping to spark some interest... Zero interest in riding a bike, never mind an e-Bike. Bike riding is not part of the
American culture.

I hear things like " Oh yea, I have a bike but haven't it in ( fill in the years ) 10, 15 who knows." Yes, the road folks are very active in the sport, but have
you checked the average age of road club riders ? They're not 'kids' and I'm being kind. When those folks are gone then what ? ( for cycling in general that is)

We all know the joy ease and fun of a quality e-bike, that's a no brainer. The issue is bike riding is just not in many or most folks thought process. That's
what it gets down to. My guess....The major manufacturers know this and are building 'Ferraris' and not 'Toyota Corolla' 'cause folks like myself and others
are willing to purchase and really value a quality product. ..There is a ray of hope. The owner of my LBS told me the growth in cycling is e-Bikes and wait for it
BMX.

One very last thought. It troubles me that some LBS owners are struggling, because they play a huge role for a first or second time buyer and without
them it will be even more difficult get and or keep new riders in the sport. Just my two cents.

John from CT

 

[Rooster]

Eric Hicks (Luna Cycle) has a list of his personal favorite ebike influencers who are not ebike company owners. Several people not on the list who do own ebike businesses or provide services are also mentioned in the comments including Court Rye. This is a North America focused list but the next Michael Dell is surely going to be some nameless executive in an Asian ebike manufacturing company. If you want a list of North American ebike resellers/assemblers who are committed to making ebikes affordable you might include from the US Tora Harris (Juiced), Mike Radenbaugh (RadPower), Storm Sondors, Jason Kraft (Electric Bike Technologies), and from Canada George Krastev (Voltbike), Gary Salo (Golden Motor Canada), Justin LeMire-Elmore (ebikes.ca), Roshan Thomas (Biktrix), also a bunch of other worthy individuals.

I won't mention names but the majority of ebike makers you mention are just taking Chinese garbage and rebranding them and maybe adding a few different options also Chinese. The only ones coming close to doing their own things are Justin from ebikes.ca and coming on strong, IMO is Eric at Luna. Rad power is doing good stuff but Tora has some serious QC problems and personally I have had problems with juiced customer service and I have dealt with Luna and grin tech and never had a problem with either.

 

[Rooster]

Not everyone can afford or wants to pay for a high end precision ebike. I have been riding high end bikes for years. and ebikes since 2013. I own 5 ebikes including an Easy Motion and Optibike. Yes, they are excellent ebikes. Are they worth the money they cost? No, not at their full retail price. They are overpriced but I got good deals on them. I have built my own BBSHD for less than 1/2 the cost and also a better ebike. Many people also hate on Eric from Luna but even he considers Storm one of the innovators today.

The best way to get exactly what you want is building it yourself and people need to quit hating on Luna because their going to the top. I personally have never had a problem with Luna or Grin. Justin is one smart dude and so is Eric. They both have some killer ideas. Tora is also a very intelligent person but I'm sorry, juiced just left a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Barry S]

Is this even possible in the US at the moment? Unlike Asia and Europe where bikes are actually seen as a legitimate means of transportation most of what I've seen in the States is that biking is seen more as a recreational activity with only a tiny number (relatively speaking) of users. This isn't just limited to ebikes, when I ride a bike in my small town for every 5 persons who actually seem to be using their bikes to go to the market or work or whatever there seem to be 15 bikers riding high-end road bikes with the spandex getup which I just can't see being apoted by non-entusiasts. Even in places like Washington DC and Portland that are seen as super-bike friendly the number of bikers you see are a very small number compared to car users. So long as gas costs are so low here and the use of cars so high what little infrastructure there is for bikes seems to be, at best, an afterthought. Hopefully I'm totally wrong but seeing how the bikes that are talked about the most are high priced, very top of the line bikes it seems that the bike makers are looking to become the next Ferrari and not too concerned about building the next Toyota Corolla.

My apologies for the very late response, but I just came across this thread today. I completely agree with your observations. I had to travel to Portland a couple of months ago on business and it was my first time to the area. As a daily bike commuter in Honolulu (very pro-car here), I was excited to see the City's bike infrastructure that I've read about and seen videos of on YouTube, so you can imagine my disappointment to see very few cyclists actually using it. While the infrastructure needs to be in place to allow bicycle commuting to flourish, there also needs to be a welcoming spirit from those bicycle purists who see ebikes as nothing more than another form of mopeds to be banned from bike lanes. That's the sentiment here from the President of the Hawaii Bicycling League. Then there's the problem of bike theft. I wouldn't consider for a second of commuting on my non-ebike in Honolulu if I couldn't keep it in my work cubicle. If I had to lock it outside it would be gone before I got to my desk. If I change jobs, one of my questions will be, "Is there a secure place to keep my bike?" Cities need to look at secure bike facilities like they have in Japan to encourage more bike use whether ebike or not. A lot of things to consider, and it takes leaders with the vision, passion and real guts to move forward.