Who is , or will be , the Dell of ebikes ?

[ebikest]

Sondors has sold far more ebikes than Rad and Juiced combined in just the last 2 years, over 20K ebikes sold for 10+ million dollars. If he wasn't making money at it, he wouldn't keep doing it. Sondors just announced that there is a whole slew of new products on the horizon. Not only does he have a loyal customer base that dwarfs most of the other off-brand small ebike companies, he now has the backing and financing of investors. He is just getting started.

 

[rich c]

Sondors has sold far more ebikes than Rad and Juiced combined in just the last 2 years, over 20K ebikes sold for 10+ million dollars. If he wasn't making money at it, he wouldn't keep doing it. Sondors just announced that there is a whole slew of new products on the horizon. Not only does he have a loyal customer base that dwarfs most of the other off-brand small ebike companies, he now has the backing and financing of investors. He is just getting started.

20K bikes sold, and 2 customer service employees, not the kind of odds I like in a "major player". Just one of the reasons he may be making money. Letting a Facebook community handle your customer service and sales recommendations is another.

 

[ebikest]

20K bikes sold, and 2 customer service employees, not the kind of odds I like in a "major player". Just one of the reasons he may be making money. Letting a Facebook community handle your customer service and sales recommendations is another.

I see your point but on the flip side having a dedicated, active community is far more useful than if he had 20 customer service people. Facebook is 24/7, the support to questions and issues is almost immediate, the price is right and you can't get that from a standard customer service model. Also, in his newest release of ebikes and the latest enhancements such as 7-speed options, front suspension and 48v system was all based on the direct feedback he received from that same group. You won't find many "major players" listening to their own customers like that.

Sondors just announced a plan to let you invest and become part of the company. Lets see a "major player" do that!

 

[rich c]

I'll give them credit for listening. Also credit for building a cult like following. What I've never understood is the tolerance of the owners with problems. So many just threw up their arms and paid for their own repairs. Or were lucky enough to have Bruce fix them for free in the Facebook community. You have a company that is so slow with answers or replacement parts shipping, that the owners just went out and bought aftermarket replacement parts. And from what I've seen, people under the 30 day warranty did that. Odd behavior from the customers, and not a professional solution from the company. It would seem to me that somewhere in here, this system could easily break down. Sure a lot of people would not contact the company with issues on a $500 bike, but I don't think you'll get the same as the price increases two and three times that. I could be surprised though, the cult is strong! I am a Sondors owner, original Indiegogo fat bike, with aftermarket improvements, with over 1500 miles.

 

[ebikest]

I have 2 Sondors. Yes, the quality of components was not great but for a $694 (inc shipping) ebike and the $300 in upgrades I put into them, the ebikes have been remarkably reliable. The only real issue I have had is with the freewheel and one of the crank arms which I replaced.

I agree with you that for a $500 bike even with problems most people are not going to complain. Other than the battery (which I have yet to hear anyone have issues with), the most expensive components on this bike are pretty inexpensive so most don't fuss about fixing and replacing them. It becomes a fun project to upgrade and make your own. With my $3000 BH ebike, if I had a problem, I would expect a level of customer service from them I would not expect with Sondors because of the price I paid.

I was one of those early skeptics calling him a fraud. The fact that Sondors can make fun of himself (see video I posted earlier) and continue to introduce new and improved products, shows me that he has earned himself his place.

 

[emco5]

Looks like Trek is dropping Shimano’s e-drive and stepping up it’s game with Bosch
... .

If by "e-drive" you mean the STEPS, I would not bet on that. We will know for sure soon enough, but from what I've read the Shimano units will continue on Trek's 2018 US models. Both the Bosch and Shimano systems are viable power plants and having a Bosch over a Shimano is not stepping up the game. Systems are chosen for their benefits within an application.

 

[George S.]

Does the Ebike Industry Even Know About This?

Storm Sondors has sold about 20 million dollars worth of ebikes. Given the price structure, that is a lot of units. Sondors was greeted with outrage, or extreme skepticism, but he went to China and showed he knew how to play that game. The selling model is stripped down, to say the least. “Give me some money and I’ll send you a bike, from China, in a few weeks or months.”

Now Sondors is doing a Reg A+ offering, trying to raise 50 million. That happens to be the max you can do with A+.

Sondors explains his plan on the Equity Crowdfund site.

Sondors has filed his documents with the SEC here.

His plan is simple. He wants a hundred little stores for people to try out and rent his bikes. All the people who talk about local service, buying local, the importance of test rides, I guess Mr. Sondors listened. He wants beefy customer service. Wow, imagine that.

It’s funny how Mr. Sondors seems to have a plan, the Big Plan, and everyone else has excuses and marketing gimmicks.

Is this for real? It’s hard to say. There is no real team. It’s all Sondors, all the time. Plus he is trying to raise tens of millions for the car. He has a million in seed money for the car.

Is anyone else in the ebike industry this creative?

 

[jazz]

Does the Ebike Industry Even Know About This?

Is anyone else in the ebike industry this creative?

I would say No. Sondors solicits and listens to feedback from customers. He takes that feedback to improve his products while still offering them at affordable prices. He wants his customers (and anyone for that matter) to have stake and ownership in his companies and future endeavors. Most of all he has vision. Sondors approach is for the modern age.

Most every other ebike companies builds you bikes they think you want and hope you'll buy them.

 

[rich c]

I would say No. Sondors solicits and listens to feedback from customers. He takes that feedback to improve his products while still offering them at affordable prices. He wants his customers (and anyone for that matter) to have stake and ownership in his companies and future endeavors. Most of all he has vision. Sondors approach is for the modern age.

Most every other ebike companies builds you bikes they think you want and hope you'll buy them.

Sure he listens to feedback. When everyone that bought an original bike bought an aftermarket LCD and controller, he saw how much money he was loosing. About the same time he came out with the statement that warranties would be void if aftermarket parts were installed. Yeah right, 30 day warranty! He then started selling the same parts for higher prices, it called capitalism and marketing, not listening to feedback. And sure he wants anyone to have a stake in his company, once again, capitalism! He wants to make money! Of course I have never met the man, but I don't feel is that big of a humanitarian that he is doing this strictly for the people. I apologize if that is really his intent.

How can you make that statement about most every other ebike company? Are you a dealer or do industry studies? Haibike and Bulls sellout of several models every year. Bulls has sold out of full suspension fat bikes again this year, Haibike always sells out of some models. Those are the only two I follow, can't say about most other companies.

I really hope the Sondors worship doesn't pour over to this forum too badly. I can understand the enthusiasm since I bought one, but I didn't know better. When I rode a bike with quality components, I relegated my Sondors to a winter beater for the snow and salt. It's my experience that those bashing the high cost of precision bikes and bike companies, have never rode one.

 

[jazz]

Not everyone can afford or wants to pay for a high end precision ebike. I have been riding high end bikes for years. and ebikes since 2013. I own 5 ebikes including an Easy Motion and Optibike. Yes, they are excellent ebikes. Are they worth the money they cost? No, not at their full retail price. They are overpriced but I got good deals on them. I have built my own BBSHD for less than 1/2 the cost and also a better ebike. Many people also hate on Eric from Luna but even he considers Storm one of the innovators today.

 

[pxpaulx]

Not everyone can afford or wants to pay for a high end precision ebike. I have been riding high end bikes for years. and ebikes since 2013. I own 5 ebikes including an Easy Motion and Optibike. Yes, they are excellent ebikes. Are they worth the money they cost? No, not at their full retail price. They are overpriced but I got good deals on them. I have built my own BBSHD for less than 1/2 the cost and also a better ebike. Many people also hate on Eric from Luna but even he considers Storm one of the innovators today.

Anyone who wants a deal can find one quite easily. I wouldn't call the sponsors sondors bikes a deal... They are just cheap bikes.

I would personally never point someone to a cheap bike. Pointing them to a good deal is something else entirely. I'd prefer to make the ebike industry a lasting one rather than a one and done purchase.

If sondors goes the retail route, there will be added costs that would drive up there price to compensate. Not sure how you can have both cheap and a wide self sustaining dealer network.

 

[ebikest]

I really hope the Sondors worship doesn't pour over to this forum too badly. I can understand the enthusiasm since I bought one, but I didn't know better. When I rode a bike with quality components, I relegated my Sondors to a winter beater for the snow and salt. It's my experience that those bashing the high cost of precision bikes and bike companies, have never rode one.

What do you fu**ing expect from a $500 ebike? You didn't know better? Why not, it was a freaking $500 electric powered ebike. You can't even buy a decent fat bike under $1500 alone.

In a world high-priced ebikes, he brought something affordable to the masses to some who might not have even considered an ebike when average cost was $2-3K.

I have a couple of Sondors, and a $4000 ebike and one even pricier than that. Of course I know they're not the same in terms of quality because each of my ebikes has their place but to pull that original electric fat bike off for a mere $499 was not amazing but fu**ing amazing. To sell 20 million ebikes in 2.5 years, to raise over $10+ million dollars through crowdfunding without putting up a dime of your own is fu**ing brilliant in my book! If acknowledging this is "Sondors worship", then so be it.

 

[ebikest]

Anyone who wants a deal can find one quite easily. I wouldn't call the sponsors sondors bikes a deal... They are just cheap bikes.

I would personally never point someone to a cheap bike. Pointing them to a good deal is something else entirely. I'd prefer to make the ebike industry a lasting one rather than a one and done purchase.

If sondors goes the retail route, there will be added costs that would drive up there price to compensate. Not sure how you can have both cheap and a wide self sustaining dealer network.

Of course they're cheap bikes, that was the original intention. Everyone is selling a 2K-3K+ ebike. Why would he want to do the same thing? He wanted to bring something affordable to the masses and he did. To many, he introduced them to their first ebikes and many have gone on to purchase even better ebikes. Yes, it is a cheap entry level ebike, some people don't have the money or want to spend more on an ebike than a motorcycle. My Sondors have much more reliable than even I expected. I have had more issues with my Haibike than my Sondors the past 2 years. And if something does break, need repair or need replacing, it is much easier to do on myself on my simple Sondors than my Haibike or my Emotion for that matter.

 

[Solom01]

This is why biking, and especially ebikes, are reserved for enthusiasts in the US and Canada. As long as reviews focus on expensive bikes and people state that you need an expensive mid motor drive and batteries are expensive and hard to replace they will remain an odity without the critical mass needed to bring about standardization. It's like hearing car nuts talk about how great Porches are and how only fools would drive a Kia or Corolla. Obviously they made be better cars, although reliability ratings seem to favor the Kia and Toyota, but if anyone thinks that ebikes are going to become seen as a viable transportation alternative when only expensive Euro bikes without throttles are pushed as being the solution I wouldn't hold my breath. They will remain exotic hobbies, like multi thousand dollar espresso coffee makers.

 

[pxpaulx]

@ebikest that is sondors worship. Your attitude is the exact same one that everyone else who came around here before about sondors has also brought with them. It doesn't really help your cause a whole lot.

Btw twenty million is a drop in the bucket here. Ten thousand bikes annually is about 3% market share... And aren't some of those sales outside the US as well? None of the big players are shaking in their britches, I can promise that.

If the average sale price of an ebike is just two grand, at 400000 bikes sold annually and growing, that is a sales volume of eight hundred million annually. 20 million over 2.5 years by sondors hits just one percent of sales by value at 8 million bucks.

 

[George S.]

I bought a Prodeco X3 from a dealer in St. George Utah, about an hour away. I didn’t want to buy an ebike without some kind of test ride on something. I was really impressed and bought it for around $1700. Then I built a bike I had lying around into an ebike, which cost $800 in new parts. II sold the X3 for a $900 loss. I’ve done 3 conversions, two Goldens and a MAC, over 30 months. I bought a BBS02 a few weeks ago, but don’t have a bike to convert right now. None of these bikes will be over $1000. Guys like Jehu Garcia provide ways to get cheap batteries. Vruzend seems to work, and their cell prices are reasonable. Micah Toll is a huge resource for DIY battery stuff. But most people want to buy a bike, they want a low price, and they want to ride it before buying. Sondors is three for three. The X3 was the cheapest bike the dealer had. He had Stromers, Haibikes, and BH products. He also went out of business. The area, maybe 250,000 people, couldn’t support the price structure he had. It’s all well and good to say there are deals, but that’s not going ‘local’. He couldn't sustain the bikes, carry the inventory.

If Sondors had his 3 bikes in a little shop, people could go for a quick test or they could rent a Sondors for an hour or two. Maybe he could keep these costs very low. The Sondors are easy to repair. The parts are trivial. The Bafang motor can be case replaced in 15 minutes. A shop could sell these bikes and try to get some volume, do some rentals, do some repairs. He could work out the numbers on how to do inventory, but he could continue to sell out of China. But he could generate huge volumes with the bikes he has, at the prices he has. Anyone who thinks they are just junk is wrong, I think. I might have bought a Thin if I could have test ridden it. I might buy a Fold, but I need to know how it works for me. Test rides are a huge thing, and Sondors is smart to go down this road. When I convert, I know the bike going in. The motor and battery are fairly simple when you don’t try to engineer advanced assist modes.

The Sondors Plan is the only model that would work here. A store with low overhead and simple inventory. I am a huge advocate of DIY, but it just doesn’t work for a lot of people. The Sondors bike is a CPSC legal bike. He makes that clear. I think that is the right way to do things. There are so many things to like about what Sondors is doing. And people should note that Sondors and Luna are built around Bafang. Bafang continues to announce new motors, more refined motors, and a battery factory. Bafang is another company with a vision.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The X3 was the cheapest bike the dealer had. He had Stromers, Haibikes, and BH products. He also went out of business. The area, maybe 250,000 people, couldn’t support the price structure he had. It’s all well and good to say there are deals, but that’s not going ‘local’. He couldn't sustain the bikes, carry the inventory.

They are very much in business and thriving.

https://www.espokes.com/

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[pxpaulx]

I bought a Prodeco X3 from a dealer in St. George Utah, about an hour away. I didn’t want to buy an ebike without some kind of test ride on something. I was really impressed and bought it for around $1700. Then I built a bike I had lying around into an ebike, which cost $800 in new parts. II sold the X3 for a $900 loss. I’ve done 3 conversions, two Goldens and a MAC, over 30 months. I bought a BBS02 a few weeks ago, but don’t have a bike to convert right now. None of these bikes will be over $1000. Guys like Jehu Garcia provide ways to get cheap batteries. Vruzend seems to work, and their cell prices are reasonable. Micah Toll is a huge resource for DIY battery stuff. But most people want to buy a bike, they want a low price, and they want to ride it before buying. Sondors is three for three. The X3 was the cheapest bike the dealer had. He had Stromers, Haibikes, and BH products. He also went out of business. The area, maybe 250,000 people, couldn’t support the price structure he had. It’s all well and good to say there are deals, but that’s not going ‘local’. He couldn't sustain the bikes, carry the inventory.

If Sondors had his 3 bikes in a little shop, people could go for a quick test or they could rent a Sondors for an hour or two. Maybe he could keep these costs very low. The Sondors are easy to repair. The parts are trivial. The Bafang motor can be case replaced in 15 minutes. A shop could sell these bikes and try to get some volume, do some rentals, do some repairs. He could work out the numbers on how to do inventory, but he could continue to sell out of China. But he could generate huge volumes with the bikes he has, at the prices he has. Anyone who thinks they are just junk is wrong, I think. I might have bought a Thin if I could have test ridden it. I might buy a Fold, but I need to know how it works for me. Test rides are a huge thing, and Sondors is smart to go down this road. When I convert, I know the bike going in. The motor and battery are fairly simple when you don’t try to engineer advanced assist modes.

The Sondors Plan is the only model that would work here. A store with low overhead and simple inventory. I am a huge advocate of DIY, but it just doesn’t work for a lot of people. The Sondors bike is a CPSC legal bike. He makes that clear. I think that is the right way to do things. There are so many things to like about what Sondors is doing. And people should note that Sondors and Luna are built around Bafang. Bafang continues to announce new motors, more refined motors, and a battery factory. Bafang is another company with a vision.

I'm not necessarily discounting the need for all levels of ebikes - the only thing that really amuses me is that some of the Sondors supporters come around claiming the current industry won't thrive unless they race to the bottom; that Sondors is truly shaking things up (!!!!!). There is plenty of room in this growing market, I'm simply guaranteeing that Sondors and the other off-the-shelf importers (Rad, Volt, cross current and several others) are not taking a bite out of the larger established brand sales - they are simply adding options to a fast growing market. This sort of thing already exists in the regular bike world. Take Bikes Direct (coincidentally also testing their feet in the ebike waters right now) - their bikes can be found under a dozen different 'house brand' names (KHS comes to mind), and probably on alibaba as well - all are simply generic frames with varying levels of components at prices that best the large brands. Gee, that sure sounds familiar! Old hat, new market segment.

I also agree Bafang is the real winner among the low value products (being you'll find their motors on just about every one of the lower price options) - they are just as important as bosch, yamaha or brose are for their respective price points. I would also hazard a guess that the US market makes up no more than a few points of Bafang's profits, in that respect they are no different from the other motors/brands.

 

[Robert W Green]

I wish someone would look at Detroit with all those abandoned factories and warehouses, and say, lets open those up again, but instead of cars we'll build ebikes! Detroit could be the new capitol for ebike production. I'm so sick of waiting for a much needed part to get here fron China.

 

[George S.]

They are very much in business and thriving.

https://www.espokes.com/

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Ravi,

Not exactly. David Rasmussen started with a store in St. George. Then he opened a store in the Salt Lake City area (South Jordan). The St. George ebike store could not make it in the small market, but the Salt Lake City store, apparently, can. A lot of miles to SLC. My point was simple. A high cost store won't make it in this area. His did not, and I don't think any other would. I've ridden by the old store. It was on a nice bike path. It isn't there. The store where I bought my ebike is not there.