I would think a mid motor ebike will be the best all around ebike as it has a lower and center center of gravity (better stability), easy maintenance (removing and servicing the motor is a childs play) and leaves the bike wheels completely unchanged (meaning you can pick and choose wheels for your bike for the plethora of wheels out there. But that's just a guess. Please let us know of your own research. Thanks.
Which ebike is better and why? Back motor, mid motor or front motor?
- Thread starter AZOldTech
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indianajo
Well-Known Member
If you intend to override the range of your battery and pedal your way home, the best design is the geared hub motor. These have an internal clutch and do not drag when pedaled. I envision an 80 miles trip next week, but don't want to buy another $630 battery that might get used twice a year and die from lack of charge cycles. Also spare batteries can't be carried into concerts, and are a thief magnet on a bike cabled up in the parking lot.
front hub motors balance the bike better if you carry a lot of cargo, but it takes a special frame to handle the torque. I hung the 18 lb battery from the handlebars and did not find the high weight center a problem. I used a seventies Huffy cruiser, which heavy steel fork should be able to handle about any torque. I did install torque arms.
Mid motors wear out chains, especially if the number of sprockets is over 7. I've owned 2 bike chain tools that didn't work, and find this frustrating since I spliced industrial chain at work, including the "bicycle" 1/8" sprocket size , successfully.
Midmotors delete the choice of several front sprockets, which means one won't be able to pedal up steep hills after the battery is dead.
It does take longer to remove a rear hub motor to change the tube, but I've found tires that cut my number of flats to less than one a year, so I'm willing to take the risk. a selection of wheels seems to mainly be about lightness from today's suppliers, which is not critical on an electric drive bike. Hub motors do come with bad plastic wheels or dual lining aluminum wheels both of which require long stem tubes available only out of state. However I have a collection of steel wheels from the sixties that should be strong enough with a single thickness and normal tubes. You can't buy these anywhere, however
Mid-motor come from major supplier and have a good quality reputation. I found one brand geared hub motor with a reputation at a US supplier, but he refused to sell to me because with cargo myself plus bike plus carge weighs an exorbitant 320 lb. Also I owned a 48 v battery which he found to cause a reliability problem. I tried to buy the swiss made geared hub motor but could find no vendor.
front hub motors balance the bike better if you carry a lot of cargo, but it takes a special frame to handle the torque. I hung the 18 lb battery from the handlebars and did not find the high weight center a problem. I used a seventies Huffy cruiser, which heavy steel fork should be able to handle about any torque. I did install torque arms.
Mid motors wear out chains, especially if the number of sprockets is over 7. I've owned 2 bike chain tools that didn't work, and find this frustrating since I spliced industrial chain at work, including the "bicycle" 1/8" sprocket size , successfully.
Midmotors delete the choice of several front sprockets, which means one won't be able to pedal up steep hills after the battery is dead.
It does take longer to remove a rear hub motor to change the tube, but I've found tires that cut my number of flats to less than one a year, so I'm willing to take the risk. a selection of wheels seems to mainly be about lightness from today's suppliers, which is not critical on an electric drive bike. Hub motors do come with bad plastic wheels or dual lining aluminum wheels both of which require long stem tubes available only out of state. However I have a collection of steel wheels from the sixties that should be strong enough with a single thickness and normal tubes. You can't buy these anywhere, however
Mid-motor come from major supplier and have a good quality reputation. I found one brand geared hub motor with a reputation at a US supplier, but he refused to sell to me because with cargo myself plus bike plus carge weighs an exorbitant 320 lb. Also I owned a 48 v battery which he found to cause a reliability problem. I tried to buy the swiss made geared hub motor but could find no vendor.
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Thanks for the input. You mentioned geared hub back motor and you mentioned their plastic gears. Why not then direct drive back hub motor that does away with gears? Plus you get regenerative power for free (unless you don't use brakes lol). I test drove a direct drive ebike the other day (radcity) and I found little difference with a geared hub motor in drag with zero power when pedaling. And I certainly liked the super quietness of the direct drive motor a hell of a lot better than the noisy geared motor. Plus, no plastic gears... EVER!
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
I have 2200 miles on my 20-speed Yamaha powered bike. The chain shows no wear according to the Park CC-3.2. I do keep my chain scrupulously clean and lubed though.
Yamaha mid-drives support two chainrings.
indianajo
Well-Known Member
These hub motors are <$300. If the gears wear out in a hub motor, I'll throw it away and buy another. I think someone postulated 10000 mile endurance? That would be 5 years for me. And if I'm pedaling the bike with the motor turned off, which I intend to do a lot, the gears aren't rotating.
I'm too small to ride demonstrator bikes and the nearest dealer is 110 miles away, so I'll have to take your word on drag of direct versus geared hub. I think the direct drive hub did slow me down (unpowered) since installation 10 days ago , but I need to run a timed course against various wind conditions to really tell. The direct drive hub did force me down 1 to 2 sprockets on my route to the grocery today compared to the OEM derailleur wheel.
Geared hub did get me up 15% grades with 280 lb gross with only 400 w starting, 250 running.
Interesting about the yamaha supporting 2 front chains. I hadn't seen that in the reviews by Court. No bikes for sale here to view of course. Pedego dealer opened last month in the next state I read.
I'm too small to ride demonstrator bikes and the nearest dealer is 110 miles away, so I'll have to take your word on drag of direct versus geared hub. I think the direct drive hub did slow me down (unpowered) since installation 10 days ago , but I need to run a timed course against various wind conditions to really tell. The direct drive hub did force me down 1 to 2 sprockets on my route to the grocery today compared to the OEM derailleur wheel.
Geared hub did get me up 15% grades with 280 lb gross with only 400 w starting, 250 running.
Interesting about the yamaha supporting 2 front chains. I hadn't seen that in the reviews by Court. No bikes for sale here to view of course. Pedego dealer opened last month in the next state I read.
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harryS
Well-Known Member
I own all three types of drives on my ebikes, and have dabbled with 2 wheel drive. My hub motors are all geared motors. I am not interested in direct drive motors because of their resistance to coasting/pedaling. While this is manageable on commercial bikes, DD motors for kit builders are mainly heavy (but powerful) monsters. We have one commercial bike, a geared rear drive bike and various kit bikes of different sizes from a fatbike to small folders. My mid drive is a 750W bafang BBS02, but I also have a TSDZ2 model that I've not installed yet.
For a commercial ebike, I assume that the manufacturer has managed the strength issue on front drive. I think a kit builder should simply avoid front drive. It adds an extra concern and makes front suspension more worrisome.For rising, I find that FWD can slip on wet pavement or gravel on an uphill start. In hindsight, I would not do it again.
Mid drive requires a bike riders mentality. You want to be in the right gear for starts and for hills. A stronger motor can overcome rider error, but it's not good. Commercial middrives do monitor motor temperature and shut down if the rider heats it up too much. Road bikers who average close to 20 mph claim to change their chains every 500-1000 miles, while us slower riders haven't touched a chain in decades. If you run your mid drive at 25 mph, then you should expect the same kind of chain wear. I suspect most recreational riders will never wear the chains on a Bosch or Yamaha bike at 15 mph.
Hubmotors also benefit from smart bike riding. I believe the motor is there to assist, so one still needs to be in the right gear. However, starting out from a stop only needs about 100W, so riders like my wife get away with a throttle start in a higher gear.
I think all ebikes are fun. However, features like suspension, riding position, comfortable seats and hand grips are probably more important than the type of motor, once you have something that has enough power for your needs. Weight and maneuverabilty may also be more important to you.
For a commercial ebike, I assume that the manufacturer has managed the strength issue on front drive. I think a kit builder should simply avoid front drive. It adds an extra concern and makes front suspension more worrisome.For rising, I find that FWD can slip on wet pavement or gravel on an uphill start. In hindsight, I would not do it again.
Mid drive requires a bike riders mentality. You want to be in the right gear for starts and for hills. A stronger motor can overcome rider error, but it's not good. Commercial middrives do monitor motor temperature and shut down if the rider heats it up too much. Road bikers who average close to 20 mph claim to change their chains every 500-1000 miles, while us slower riders haven't touched a chain in decades. If you run your mid drive at 25 mph, then you should expect the same kind of chain wear. I suspect most recreational riders will never wear the chains on a Bosch or Yamaha bike at 15 mph.
Hubmotors also benefit from smart bike riding. I believe the motor is there to assist, so one still needs to be in the right gear. However, starting out from a stop only needs about 100W, so riders like my wife get away with a throttle start in a higher gear.
I think all ebikes are fun. However, features like suspension, riding position, comfortable seats and hand grips are probably more important than the type of motor, once you have something that has enough power for your needs. Weight and maneuverabilty may also be more important to you.
Larry, you gotta be kidding. The Admin is right, there is no answer to your question. It will be more productive if you specify your intended use, budget and other preferences. Some of your initial assumptions about motors are wrong, some are correct, but this is not as important as what you are going to do with a bike.
AHicks
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Well, my thoughts. I think geared motors (take your pick rear or mid) can get you launched easier/without pulling as much power from a stop. They're also better whenever the mechanical advantage of those gears can be utilized, like short steep hills for instance. So, while the extra noise, complexity, and maintenance of the gears can be justified under some conditions, maybe not so easy under other conditions.
The turn off personally regarding the mid set up is regarding the need to keep it in the correct gear, and the drive train wear. The thought you're left walking if the chain beaks was also a deal breaker.
The DD motors shine for cruising on the level, or just moderate hills - like you might encounter when driving your car. They do drag slightly when coasting (not that noticable for most of us) but use so little power when left at a very low power setting you're seldom going to notice. Where you might notice the drag is if you have the motor turned off - which isn't going to happen often for most of us. The bigger reason I went with them initially was because they are so simple, no gears, which translates directly to absolute minimized maintenance requirements. The fact they don't use gears means they'll run near silent most of the time, unless accelerating hard, like an uphill start from a stop for instance - and then it's just something you hear, vs. most of the time when it's near silent. What I've learned since is that I can use 1000-1500w DD hub motors for some pretty spirited performance, without using obnoxious amounts of battery power. OK, so they're heavier. That's something else I've never noticed while riding. The regen braking function is also nice, especially in coastal areas with long hills that can leave you moving along at uncomfortably fast speeds. This is very similar to downshifting a car, or engaging an exhaust brake on a diesel, to handle a down hill section that might have you worried about smoking your brakes. Yes it does turn the motor into a generator that's charging your battery temporarily, but the amount of charge you get from using it is negligible - not a good reason to use it. It's way more about helping hold your speed in check.
The turn off personally regarding the mid set up is regarding the need to keep it in the correct gear, and the drive train wear. The thought you're left walking if the chain beaks was also a deal breaker.
The DD motors shine for cruising on the level, or just moderate hills - like you might encounter when driving your car. They do drag slightly when coasting (not that noticable for most of us) but use so little power when left at a very low power setting you're seldom going to notice. Where you might notice the drag is if you have the motor turned off - which isn't going to happen often for most of us. The bigger reason I went with them initially was because they are so simple, no gears, which translates directly to absolute minimized maintenance requirements. The fact they don't use gears means they'll run near silent most of the time, unless accelerating hard, like an uphill start from a stop for instance - and then it's just something you hear, vs. most of the time when it's near silent. What I've learned since is that I can use 1000-1500w DD hub motors for some pretty spirited performance, without using obnoxious amounts of battery power. OK, so they're heavier. That's something else I've never noticed while riding. The regen braking function is also nice, especially in coastal areas with long hills that can leave you moving along at uncomfortably fast speeds. This is very similar to downshifting a car, or engaging an exhaust brake on a diesel, to handle a down hill section that might have you worried about smoking your brakes. Yes it does turn the motor into a generator that's charging your battery temporarily, but the amount of charge you get from using it is negligible - not a good reason to use it. It's way more about helping hold your speed in check.
I own a Polaris with a 750W DD hub motor, a Haibike with a Bosch and another Haibike with Yamaha motor so I have some perspective but mainly do urban / street riding. If I were mainly interested in riding at speeds below 20mph I would just stick with mid-drive motors but I like to ride at an average speed over 20mph and have found that the DD hub motor's performance improves at the higher speeds such that it has become my favorite commuting ebike. I can even maintain a higher speed up hills that have say a 6% grade vs the Yamaha and Bosch which seem to have programs that reduce assist at the higher speeds (probably because it's hard to put a lot of power into the crank at higher speeds so the assist doesn't max out when going fast uphill.
I would never consider a hub motor (neither geared or direct) if most of my riding was off-road / single-track / mtn biking but if you spend most of you time commuting I would seriously consider a DD hub motor if you want to ride at higher average speeds and maybe a gear hub motor if you want lower speed performance improvements. Don't consider a DD hub motor less than 750W as they are not as efficient at slower speeds but the higher wattage helps a lot at speeds over 20mph.
I would never consider a hub motor (neither geared or direct) if most of my riding was off-road / single-track / mtn biking but if you spend most of you time commuting I would seriously consider a DD hub motor if you want to ride at higher average speeds and maybe a gear hub motor if you want lower speed performance improvements. Don't consider a DD hub motor less than 750W as they are not as efficient at slower speeds but the higher wattage helps a lot at speeds over 20mph.
tomjasz
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Although it’s safe to say a couple of gear drives, 3 maybe 4, are extremely durable. Early BBSxx failures are typically from two sources, 01 and 02 models ridden like 1 speed scooters, and poor factory parts control. If Bafang ever supports its resellers they’d have an even bigger diy market share.
I'm just in the process of choosing my first electric fat-bike. Probably go for a Teo or a Voltbike Yukon 750 Limited.
Why would you never consider a hub motor if most of the riding was off-road/single-track? What's the downside?
Also I notice the chainring and sprocket sizes seem to be radically different for an e-bike vs a non electric fat-bike. I guess this is presumably because you have motor assist, but does this mean that the bike would be useless on trails without the motor running?
..Roger
ebikemom
Well-Known Member
Don't hub motors go along with cadance (not torque) sensors? I think for off-road use you'd want something that was extremely natural/responsive with no feeling of "kicking in." Hub motor+cadence sensor has a feeling (that I quite like) of the assist kicking in (my daughter likens it to the "mommy's pedaling" feeling of riding on a tandem-style bike). If terrain were bumpy/rocky, another set-up might be better.
Without the assist, ebikes are very heavy. They are not useless, but for me, it would be impossible for me to ride the 2 miles uphill to my house on my ebike without the assist, while I would do much better on a regular bike (regular bikes also have LOTS more gears to manage hills).
Without the assist, ebikes are very heavy. They are not useless, but for me, it would be impossible for me to ride the 2 miles uphill to my house on my ebike without the assist, while I would do much better on a regular bike (regular bikes also have LOTS more gears to manage hills).
Ok, good feedback. I suspect that I'll find that for winter trail riding I'll only end up using it on the specific multi-use xc ski, walking, and fat-bike flat trail that we have here that runs along the river. The bike will probably not work in the hilly fat bike trails in the Gatineau hills and maybe in the future I'll get a used regular fat bike too.
ebikemom
Well-Known Member
I LOVE my hub drive for suburban/city/mixed-use trail riding. If I see bumpy or narrow terrain coming up (these are not very frequent situations, but, for example, heading up an uneven ramp onto a path while also having to fit between those concrete posts that keep cars out) I tend to use the throttle for precise control.
Trihonda
Member
I've ridden all three, and clearly the mid-drive motor should be classified as a safety device (ok, possibly a slight exaggeration)! Bicycle handling, being key to a safe riding experience, is paramount. Rider balance and weight distribution are important. Wheel mounted drives add a ton of weight in the wrong location of a bike IMHO, and don't handle nearly as well as mid-drive bikes. THAT SAID, if you don't plan on crashing, or needing to make quick crash avoidance maneuvers with your bike, then use whichever drive you want.
In all seriousness folks, I don't think it makes a huge difference.
BUT as far as handling goes, mid-drives DO handle better. And better handling ability could potentially be some slight difference in avoiding an accident. If that's important to you, then go mid-drive. We tested out a couple of wheel mounted drives at work (specifically focused on safety and handling), and I would not recommend them for public safety use. The mid-drive units we tested handled much better (more like an acoustic bicycle). Buuut, most people don't have the same high expectations for performance/handling that we do in public safety, so it's not like I'd turn my nose up at someone riding a hub mounted drive or anything.
Ride what makes sense for you.
In all seriousness folks, I don't think it makes a huge difference.
BUT as far as handling goes, mid-drives DO handle better. And better handling ability could potentially be some slight difference in avoiding an accident. If that's important to you, then go mid-drive. We tested out a couple of wheel mounted drives at work (specifically focused on safety and handling), and I would not recommend them for public safety use. The mid-drive units we tested handled much better (more like an acoustic bicycle). Buuut, most people don't have the same high expectations for performance/handling that we do in public safety, so it's not like I'd turn my nose up at someone riding a hub mounted drive or anything.
Ride what makes sense for you.
tomjasz
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Just the facts. Torque sensing bottom brackets work great with hub motors. Some versions are perhaps the most accurate sensors.
https://www.ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/torque-sensors.html
indianajo
Well-Known Member
I view the twitchyness of modern mountain bikes a safety hazard. I've had the front wheel snap sideways on pavement separators, bumps, ridges of gravel in a construction zone, and a downed limb, snap the handlebars out of my grip, fall sideways and dump me on my chin 5 times in 5 years. I don't need the fast turn response of modern frames, that gives the perception of handling ability quoted above. I need more self centering, as my Mother's 1946 Firestone bike had with the same tires as now. I could ride that bike through a pothole or across an uneven rail crossing with my hands off the handlebars, and it wouldn't fall over.
So I chose a front hub motor to install MORE gyroscopic stability in the frames that fit my small body. I would prefer a front fork with more trail to provide more self centering, but an extensive search of the market indicates to me all 26" tire front forks have the same trail, and the custom frame builder was not going to build me a fork with more, or even discuss trail or front centering ability.
I realize police (public safety) have arm and shoulder muscles like bears; the entrance exam for agility requires it. I don't, I'm not going to grow any by exercising. I've ripped loose tendons in both shoulders in falls, the surgeon says no amount of exercise is going to increase the tendon attachment. Many women are also lightly built in the arms and shoulders like me. I do lift weights in various pilates exercises, and was doing so before my tendons were ripped off the bone.
In my case, I was selected for light upper body (bones too) by my ancestor's habits of chasing deer across wet rocks in mountainous West Virginia for a coupla thousand years. My center of gravity is below my waist, and I almost can't fall down while running my reaction time is so fast.
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