What's the Scorecard on Mid-drive?

[stevenast]

Bosch mid-drive, as an example, is as simple as it gets - namely it just works every time. I'm not anticipating any kind of repair or replacement of the motor needed, for as long as I keep mine.

I imagine the cell phone that I'm using to dictate this message is also a fairly complicated device, but I find it simple to use.

The OP appears to be referring to complexity from the perspective of the builder. I'm not building a bike, I just get on and ride.

 

[eDean]

Bosch mid-drive, as an example, is as simple as it gets - namely it just works every time. I'm not anticipating any kind of repair or replacement of the motor needed, for as long as I keep mine.

I imagine the cell phone that I'm using to dictate this message is also a fairly complicated device, but I find it simple to use.

The OP appears to be referring to complexity from the perspective of the builder. I'm not building a bike, I just get on and ride.

This is a good point. My drive has a minor issue which by assumption I blame on complexity. However, it could just as easy be a quality control issue.

 

[Bike_On]

Hi George,

After putting a lot of hard miles on the Mid-Drive BBS02 500W 36V, and riding the MAC 500W 36V rear hub (300+ miles) I'd say it's almost a coin toss for me. I like both setups. Since price is a serious factor, many would be better off with the hub. Bafang does a great job with wiring and connectors which makes a cleaner install, but the price is a negative.

Court J

Fly, you are a good case study with two systems. Now you just need to go get a ddhub, 36V set up and have a three way.

The geared hubs seem to get a blend of both worlds.

 

[Bike_On]

Some kids want to buy the latest iMac or Macbook Pro because it's cool and sexy but they end up using it as a glorified Facebook browser.
Mid drives make sense for MTB'ing but for commute, they are awfully slow (I'm not talking about 750W BBS02, which is beast but has it's own problems).
I feel like the current batch of "standard" mid-drives are like using underpowered Macbook. Yes, they look aesthetically pleasing but PC's can get the job done at half the cost and have more versatility.

I have done my fair share of homework and I'm not buying into the hype. I don't do heavy off-roading and my Neo Jumper has been great for trail use. With the mid-drive because you're using planetary gears all the time, if you're cruising at ~24mph, a 400 Whr powerpack has just enough juice for 20-23 miles. That is too less and you need to wait another 4 hrs to charge back up or carry a spare battery.

48V mid-drive system, 750-800Whr battery capacity, 45-50lbs total weight, $3000....

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

If 20 mph scares you, the plethora of low-powered mid drives (350W) will do you fine. If 20 mph bores you and you get tired changing gears all the time, a ddhub will do better. (500W range) If you have a lot of hills..back to Middies.

 

[flymeaway]

Fly, you are a good case study with two systems. Now you just need to go get a ddhub, 36V set up and have a three way.

The geared hubs seem to get a blend of both worlds.

The MAC500W geared rear hub is a very capable motor, coupled with the Grin Tech CA, it can be ridden to the limit of the motor. I easily ride the bike at 28MPH and could probably ride into the low 30's but that's pushing my comfort zone. Not really sure why anyone says the BBS02 isn't set up for speed???? I ride the BBS02 36V 500W set to 43KPH limit and easily pace at 26 MPH. On the MAC converted bike I never shift chain rings and use 4 gears on the rear cluster. This winter I'll take the shifter off the chain rings and two rings off. The Bafang mid-drive definitely produces more torque, but it also accelerates well, but not as fast as the MAC.

I also ride a Neo Carbon with the Dapu 350W geared rear hub....I like the bike and the motor works well, but it puts out less torque then the BBS02 and can't match the MAC 500W in speed or torque.....and it's slightly louder then the other motors.

Court J.

 

[Bike_On]

The MAC500W geared rear hub is a very capable motor, coupled with the Grin Tech CA, it can be ridden to the limit of the motor. I easily ride the bike at 28MPH and could probably ride into the low 30's but that's pushing my comfort zone. Not really sure why anyone says the BBS02 isn't set up for speed???? I ride the BBS02 36V 500W set to 43KPH limit and easily pace at 26 MPH. On the MAC converted bike I never shift chain rings and use 4 gears on the rear cluster. This winter I'll take the shifter off the chain rings and two rings off. The Bafang mid-drive definitely produces more torque, but it also accelerates well, but not as fast as the MAC.

I also ride a Neo Carbon with the Dapu 350W geared rear hub....I like the bike and the motor works well, but it puts out less torque then the BBS02 and can't match the MAC 500W in speed or torque.....and it's slightly louder then the other motors.

Court J.

which ones are PAS, throttle, or both?

 

[stevenast]

If 20 mph scares you, the plethora of low-powered mid drives (350W) will do you fine.

Fear Factor?

 

[Bike_On]

Fear Factor?

I'm just saying that some people don't like to ride very fast. Some get a $3000 ebike and ride it the same speed they would a regular bike, just less effort. The majority of reviews on this website are for the 20- mph types.

It has been my observation, and now my prediction, that most people who pay $3k for a nice ebike, will get bored with the 20mph limit. Mtn bike riders the exception, perhaps, but most who ride, and get use to going 15-20mph all the time, realize going 20-25 or 25-30mph is more bang for the buck. It gets you there and it can be a rush.

 

[Vern]

Flymeaway has the practical knowledge and seat time in a variety or setups to really get to the heart of this matter. He should consider his own crowd funded campaign, and or get together with 86, and build a highend machine. Just saying.

 

[Bike_On]

So are mid drives worth it? yes for off road, hills, center of gravity, torque, range of efficiency being low to high, the handling.

If hill riding is the crown jewel of MDs, then having no un-sprung weight is the necklace imo. Hubs have a difficulty hanging with them in tough off road riding.

Ravi has a good broad view that maybe they are overrated. I think it depends on what you want to do. Getting from A to B quickly on good road: a hub is hard to beat in value. Flyaways's geared Mac hub shows good speed and torque and less weight than a ddHub.

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

By the way, the "poll" offers four somewhat negative choices for mid drive. How could it be that no one who likes mid-drive has participated so far?

Well here's my (perhaps useless) opinion:
My reasonably priced Optibike Pioneer Allroad is a mid-drive and, first off, I don't mind shifting its gears. To get up the hills behind my house and get to work I need them. The gearing allows me to keep its motor in the "happy zone," and do its job effectively.
My chain and cogs may wear out sooner, but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
My first foray into the eBike world was with an inexpensive rear hub drive bike that couldn't climb the way it needed to. In point of fact it couldn't pull the skin off chocolate pudding.
I don't really care about range; my r/t commute to work is only ten miles. Though I have a second charger at work, I don't bother using it. But there's no question in my mind that—in hilly country, like Northwest Connecticut anyway—a mid-drive and an intelligently spec-ced set of gears will squeeze more mileage out of a given battery capacity.
I like shifting anyway; todays derailleurs are so much better than the ones of yore. It's kind of fun running the Grey Ghost through the gears.
I haven't tried the Bosch system, but it seems to me that the mid-drive concept is here to stay. I voted with my wallet and have never looked back.
Allen

 

[Reddy Kilowatt]

They don't generally use front derailleurs with mid-drives, because the motor must be accommodated. I'm not sure that's a positive, since mid-drives work best with the correct gears.

Well, Jim Turner and his colleagues at Optibike seemed to have figured this out:

That's a touring triple on this Allroad's 500-watt mid-drive. I don't even use the small chainring in my extremely hilly neighborhood. (I guess I'll keep it in reserve in case I find any trees that need climbing.)
Allen

 

[flymeaway]

which ones are PAS, throttle, or both?

Both are PAS, without throttles. I don't have a strong opinion about PAS versus torque sensor. The NEO Carbon works fine, but I find that I have to push fairly hard on the cranks to get a response form the controller and the torque sensor will stop and start the motor for short intervals if I pedal casually. With the PAS I know that as long as I'm pedaling I'll get the maximum power for the current setting.

I used the throttle once on the NEO...just my opinion, I have no use for it. I appreciate why people want a throttle, I don't find I need one.

Court J.

 

[grench]

Well here's my (perhaps useless) opinion:
My reasonably priced Optibike Pioneer Allroad is a mid-drive and, first off, I don't mind shifting its gears. To get up the hills behind my house and get to work I need them. The gearing allows me to keep its motor in the "happy zone," and do its job effectively.
My chain and cogs may wear out sooner, but that's a price I'm willing to pay.
My first foray into the eBike world was with an inexpensive rear hub drive bike that couldn't climb the way it needed to. In point of fact it couldn't pull the skin off chocolate pudding.
I don't really care about range; my r/t commute to work is only ten miles. Though I have a second charger at work, I don't bother using it. But there's no question in my mind that—in hilly country, like Northwest Connecticut anyway—a mid-drive and an intelligently spec-ced set of gears will squeeze more mileage out of a given battery capacity.
I like shifting anyway; todays derailleurs are so much better than the ones of yore. It's kind of fun running the Grey Ghost through the gears.
I haven't tried the Bosch system, but it seems to me that the mid-drive concept is here to stay. I voted with my wallet and have never looked back.
Allen

Well said. I don't use the lower two chain rings. I am going to change the large ring to a 48 tooth and see how much the speed increases. You can order the larger chainring on the bike.

 

[flymeaway]

He should consider his own crowd funded campaign, and or get together with 86, and build a highend machine. Just saying.

Hello Vern,

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I guess I'm a bit "jaded" when it comes to the crowd funding concept. Maybe my age... I do agree that it would be great to have very high quality, fully outfitted, capable bikes for less then $2K. Like most people when I wanted to buy my 1st bike I did my research and went out and plunked down $6K for my Carbon and my wife's Cross. We rode them every day for a few weeks and I was hooked, I thought the price a bit rich, but I was having a hoot. I wanted another bike and started doing more research and realized that I could get the BBS02 for less then $500...The rest is history; the E-Motobecane and E-MT1000 tandem were born. I'm fortunate to have a full machine shop available so building components and doing the conversions were easy. I ended up with capable bikes for 1/2 the cost of Neo's. If I found a good bike like the Carbon, with a 12AH battery minimum, that has the performance of the BBS02 and MAC 500W conversions I did for $2k or less, I think my days of converting would be over. I'm optimistic, I think prices will fall as more people get involved with electric bikes.

I'd look at 86's proposal from a different perspective. I'd ask an established dealer like Crazy Lenny to find a good reliable bike from any manufacturer and get a commitment to supply a certain spec. at a price for a minimum number of bikes then see how many people are willing to give Lenny a deposit for delivery. You may not get a rock bottom price, but you'd get a high quality bike with a warranty. The manufacturer gets a volume order with their model in enthusiasts hands and Lenny makes X% on each bike.

Just saying...

Court J.

 

[Bike_On]

Hello Vern,

Thanks for the vote of confidence but I guess I'm a bit "jaded" when it comes to the crowd funding concept. Maybe my age... I do agree that it would be great to have very high quality, fully outfitted, capable bikes for less then $2K. Like most people when I wanted to buy my 1st bike I did my research and went out and plunked down $6K for my Carbon and my wife's Cross. We rode them every day for a few weeks and I was hooked, I thought the price a bit rich, but I was having a hoot. I wanted another bike and started doing more research and realized that I could get the BBS02 for less then $500...The rest is history; the E-Motobecane and E-MT1000 tandem were born. I'm fortunate to have a full machine shop available so building components and doing the conversions were easy. I ended up with capable bikes for 1/2 the cost of Neo's. If I found a good bike like the Carbon, with a 12AH battery minimum, that has the performance of the BBS02 and MAC 500W conversions I did for $2k or less, I think my days of converting would be over. I'm optimistic, I think prices will fall as more people get involved with electric bikes.

I'd look at 86's proposal from a different perspective. I'd ask an established dealer like Crazy Lenny to find a good reliable bike from any manufacturer and get a commitment to supply a certain spec. at a price for a minimum number of bikes then see how many people are willing to give Lenny a deposit for delivery. You may not get a rock bottom price, but you'd get a high quality bike with a warranty. The manufacturer gets a volume order with their model in enthusiasts hands and Lenny makes X% on each bike.

Just saying...

Court J.

Court J,

You experience and opportunity is a bit unique because of your machine shop. Most people don't understand electronics nor fabrication. OTOH, many of these kits are very straight forward and a supportive LBS can get it done.

You are the second person I have heard to give high praise for the BBS02 system. Of course, the Endless Sphere Crowd has be on it for a while. All the previous Mid drives where a kluge, with secondary chain rings and clamp on motors. I think your MAC500W hub is OPTIMUM. Being geared, it is less weight than a 500W ddhub. It has torque being geared. 500W is not 750W, but not 350W either. It can be scaled in voltage from 36-48V, true? It all adds up to good performance.

Keep up the good reviews. I will shamelessly suggest a Falco 500W ddhub for you to kit up, but it is likely too pricy for your liking. I only suggest it because it is very diverse is it's abilty to be programmed and tuned to your liking. If you buy a run-of-the mill ddhub kit, you have to know the controller is a good match to the hub and its rated power. I would be greatly interested in your comparative analysis of a 48V, ddhub system vs the Mac 500 and BBS02 750W.

D

 

[stevenast]

I'd look at 86's proposal from a different perspective. I'd ask an established dealer like Crazy Lenny to find a good reliable bike from any manufacturer and get a commitment to supply a certain spec. at a price for a minimum number of bikes then see how many people are willing to give Lenny a deposit for delivery.

Great idea! ...and if the established dealer is so well established that they're getting stock at volume/wholesale prices to begin with, it might be possible to do this on an individual or smaller scale.

 

[stevenast]

Here's a thread about the contortions hub-drive users have to consider :
http://electricbikereview.com/commu...ube-no-wheel-removal-required.252/#post-25551

 

[J.R.]

I think I'd like to own a mid-drive, but there is no NEED for me to own one. I see posts here and reviews that state "I have really steep hills to ride....... need a mid-drive...." Fill in the blanks. I have a 500w direct drive hub, the hill I ride everyday to my house in one direction is 3 miles long and 825 foot climb. From the other direction it's 2.2 miles and a 750 foot climb and the bike makes it with me pedaling. It's no breeze, I've done it with a non-e-bike, so I know how much better the hub-drive makes it. I'm no fit kid either, I and my cheap hub-drive make it without much difficulty.

The biggest drawback for me with a high end drive like Bosch is the sealed system and warranty, that doesn't allow for maintenance. I want to and can do my own maintenance, but Bosch doesn't want me to do that. For that, it's a more complicated system than a hub motor. A hub motor can run for many, many years and if it were to break, how many hubs can be purchased for the price of one Bosch?

 

[Bike_On]

I think I'd like to own a mid-drive, but there is no NEED for me to own one. I see posts here and reviews that state "I have really steep hills to ride....... need a mid-drive...." Fill in the blanks. I have a 500w direct drive hub, the hill I ride everyday to my house in one direction is 3 miles long and 825 foot climb. From the other direction it's 2.2 miles and a 750 foot climb and the bike makes it with me pedaling. It's no breeze, I've done it with a non-e-bike, so I know how much better the hub-drive makes it. I'm no fit kid either, I and my cheap hub-drive make it without much difficulty.

The biggest drawback for me with a high end drive like Bosch is the sealed system and warranty, that doesn't allow for maintenance. I want to and can do my own maintenance, but Bosch doesn't want me to do that. For that, it's a more complicated system than a hub motor. A hub motor can run for many, many years and if it were to break, how many hubs can be purchased for the price of one Bosch?

J.R.
A good point that it is hard to beat the value of a DIY system. There are tradeoffs between DIY and OEM. If a rider is serious about using the bike and doing miles, he will eventually need replacement sand repairs. When I rode an Optibike for 4.5 years, I replaced chains (stretched and slipped) Cassettes, (Smallest cog wore out), disk brake pads, several tires, several flats. That is for heavy use, high speed, mid-drive usage. I am now using a ddhub. I will need brake pads. I already replaced the whole wheel due to spokes breaking and rim damage. Things happen.

Your hub seems to be getting the job done. If your system can handle some extra heat and a little less range, then it isn't an issue. Don't need a mid drive.

As described, I have had both. What I like most about the MD over the hub is the balance and handling. That 16-20lbs extra weight in the wheel makes my teeth chatter when I hit a good bump at 25mph.