What's the Scorecard on Mid-drive?

Did mid-drive end up being what the proponents said, 12 - 18 months ago (in the US)?

  • Yes. It's better engineering and is now clearly established

    Votes: 8 29.6%

  • It works, but it's not as essential as people suggested

    Votes: 9 33.3%

  • There was so much hype, it's hard to sort out

    Votes: 5 18.5%

  • Other systems work well enough and the complexity is a major downside

    Votes: 6 22.2%

  • It works but it's a high end toy

    Votes: 3 11.1%
  • Total voters
    27
I've been running hill tests with the Mac 350w, front hub. Today I went up a long slope, maybe 6%, a mile and a half. Using the wattmeter, I was staying under 450 watts from the battery, averaging around 10 mph with nice moderate pedaling. The throttle isn't precise, but I stay close. At the top of the grade I reached down and the motor was slightly warm, but it's a black housing in the sun.

I'll try to find a 10% grade, but those grades are short around here. All I want is a motor that will climb our standard 'long' grades, 5-6%, and not be a problem. I'm not even going above what I consider to be 'rated' power. From my experience, I wouldn't even consider a BBS02 anymore. Just don't need it.

I would consider a Mac 500 W on a full suspension mountain bike. Not a great MTB, but something decent. I could see where that would be fun. Rear hub, I guess. Try to work everything from the same batteries, and I'm using 36v.

Building you do whatever you want, I guess, and share some parts or a battery system.
 
I opted for a Volton Alation 500w mid-drive for myself. I'm a heavy rider at 280lb and found that the torque of a mid drive was superior while hill climbing.

My comparison testing consisted of 4 different types/combinations of motors and batteries. A 500w (36v) gearless rear hub motor, a 500w (both 36v and 48v) geared rear hub motor, and a 350w (36v) mid-drive (bbs01). The results were shocking because the 350w mid-drive hauled my butt up the hill the best using throttle only (no peddling); nearly equivalent was the 500w geared at 48v. The 500w 36v gearless and 500w geared 36v couldn't make it up the hill.

Do I need a mid-drive? No because I can just pedal while assisted but I want the option to use throttle only mode up hills. Seeing that the 350w 36v mid drive was more powerful than the 500w 48v rear geared hub made the buying decision easier for me.

Now to be honest, I don't know how much I will love or hate the fact that I have to be very sensitive to what gear I am in. I haven't received my order yet but as I ride it for a few days I'll be able to better reflect on my buying choice.
 
Ace said:
I opted for a Volton Alation 500w mid-drive for myself. I'm a heavy rider at 280lb and found that the torque of a mid drive was superior while hill climbing.

My comparison testing consisted of 4 different types/combinations of motors and batteries. A 500w (36v) gearless rear hub motor, a 500w (both 36v and 48v) geared rear hub motor, and a 350w (36v) mid-drive (bbs01). The results were shocking because the 350w mid-drive hauled my butt up the hill the best using throttle only (no peddling); nearly equivalent was the 500w geared at 48v. The 500w 36v gearless and 500w geared 36v couldn't make it up the hill.

Do I need a mid-drive? No because I can just pedal while assisted but I want the option to use throttle only mode up hills. Seeing that the 350w 36v mid drive was more powerful than the 500w 48v rear geared hub made the buying decision easier for me.

Now to be honest, I don't know how much I will love or hate the fact that I have to be very sensitive to what gear I am in. I haven't received my order yet but as I ride it for a few days I'll be able to better reflect on my buying choice.
Click to expand...
Thanks Ace for the low down experience.
 
The 350w Mac does fine with grades to 8-9 %. If you throw a 13% grade at it, it just bogs down. It will pull 800 watts, but it is losing speed, so game over.

You avoid that with a mid-drive, plus you can get the motor turning fast enough to start on a severe grade. But that's why being able to shift a mid-drive is important when you are trying to get up a hill. The mid-drive will have to go very slowly to make it up extreme grades, since the watts are going for the climb.

So a lot would depend on where you live. You can pick your windings with the better hubs, trade hill climbing for torque. There are two speed hubs that might offer a very nice climbing gear if it all works out. But people should go into this with their eyes open. You can get a pretty good idea of the watts you need to get up a grade with this calculator. Just assume at 6-8 mph the hub is bogging down and becoming worthless.

http://bikecalculator.com/how.html

(Settings are US - Your weight - bike weight - MTB tires - Bar Ends generally. Fill in the grade or wind or whatever and slide the red dot or fill in the watts)

Right now I think you could safely say buy a mid-drive if your hills are getting above a 10% grade, or at least look at a performance hub wound for climb, not speed.
 
On a grade over 5% my geared-rear hub 350w struggles a bit. This is with me pedaling. I posted elsewhere I get about 8 - 9mph. 86 and Counting claims to be able to maintain 18mph or so on a very steep grade with a 350W Easy Motion bike. Frankly, I highly doubt that. 10mph I would believe in someone younger. Maybe even 12 to 13 mph in someone in good shape and lean.
 

@PowerMe -- well, these people are quite fit and this is an 8% - 10% grade, and a long one. They lack a motor, of course, but they are not going very fast.
 
Ace said:
I opted for a Volton Alation 500w mid-drive for myself. I'm a heavy rider at 280lb and found that the torque of a mid drive was superior while hill climbing.

My comparison testing consisted of 4 different types/combinations of motors and batteries. A 500w (36v) gearless rear hub motor, a 500w (both 36v and 48v) geared rear hub motor, and a 350w (36v) mid-drive (bbs01). The results were shocking because the 350w mid-drive hauled my butt up the hill the best using throttle only (no peddling); nearly equivalent was the 500w geared at 48v. The 500w 36v gearless and 500w geared 36v couldn't make it up the hill.

Do I need a mid-drive? No because I can just pedal while assisted but I want the option to use throttle only mode up hills. Seeing that the 350w 36v mid drive was more powerful than the 500w 48v rear geared hub made the buying decision easier for me.

Now to be honest, I don't know how much I will love or hate the fact that I have to be very sensitive to what gear I am in. I haven't received my order yet but as I ride it for a few days I'll be able to better reflect on my buying choice.
Click to expand...

Ace,
I am currently considering a Volton based on Court's recommendation. I was looking at the 500W mid drive option versus the 500 W hub version. Please post your reviews as soon as you have enough saddle time to make a straightforward comparison.
 
PowerMe said:
On a grade over 5% my geared-rear hub 350w struggles a bit. This is with me pedaling. I posted elsewhere I get about 8 - 9mph. 86 and Counting claims to be able to maintain 18mph or so on a very steep grade with a 350W Easy Motion bike. Frankly, I highly doubt that. 10mph I would believe in someone younger. Maybe even 12 to 13 mph in someone in good shape and lean.
Click to expand...
I'm old but not dead. I went on a 12 mile ride this morning with some significant but short hills. Averaged 18.7 mph.
 
Toynut said:
Ace,
I am currently considering a Volton based on Court's recommendation. I was looking at the 500W mid drive option versus the 500 W hub version. Please post your reviews as soon as you have enough saddle time to make a straightforward comparison.
Click to expand...

Toynut, the retail shops I went to did not have the Volton Alation 500 (rear geared hub at 48v/11ah), however they did have the Pedego Interceptor 500w rear geared hub at 48v/15ah. Since the motor and battery are similar I made the assumption that from a torque and performance perspective they would be similar; I still believe that is an accurate assumption. My experience and testing showed that the Alation Mid Drive (350w/36v/10.4ah) was even MORE powerful getting my heavy butt up steep hills. That really bogged my mind and still does to be honest.

I was so impressed that I figured mid-drive was the way to go for my use and placed the order for the Volton Alation Mid Drive 500w/48v/11ah. Sadly, they are back ordered and I hope to receive it by the end of this week. The upgraded Volton Alation Mid Drive actually uses the bbs02 motor which is highly rated here and was recommended to me personally by Court in an e-mail exchange as I asked him for a recommendation. The bbs02 is a 750w motor but it is neutered by Volton to balance legality, performance, and battery life (based on their feedback to me via e-mail). The bbs02 in Volton's will only output 500w due to the controller configuration which they have told me would be very difficult to change.

Based on my testing, I'm pretty confident I won't need to mess with it to unlock the full 750watts and 500w mid drive should be plenty for me. I'm pretty excited and I will report back some time next week after hopefully I receive and get personal time with the bike! In the mean time, if you think I can answer something else please let me know. I've done a LOT of research before making my purchases.

One of the things Court pointed out to me in our e-mail exchange is that there is a difference between different motor types and to not pay too much mind about wattage unless its the same motor type. I was skeptical about this but he was spot on. So for now, I'm a mid-drive fan but I think geared rear hubs are not far behind and are better in some scenarios. For example, my wife is a newbie to bikes and hasn't really grasped the concept of shifting yet and therefore the rear geared hub option was the way to go. For me personally, I would never go to a gearless motor but I can see where some people or scenarios would prefer that route.

-Ace
 
I found the absolute limit of my Mac 350W motor. It will climb a 14% grade if I pedal at my absolute limit and approach the hill carrying some speed, like 11 mph or so:

Grade on Hub.jpg

This shows the Ride with GPS screen print. The App shows the grade and speed at every point in a ride.

If you want to climb serious hills with a hub, those are the rules. Start with speed, pedal hard.
 
George S. said:
I found the absolute limit of my Mac 350W motor. It will climb a 14% grade if I pedal at my absolute limit and approach the hill carrying some speed, like 11 mph or so:

View attachment 3407

This shows the Ride with GPS screen print. The App shows the grade and speed at every point in a ride.

If you want to climb serious hills with a hub, those are the rules. Start with speed, pedal hard.
Click to expand...

Cool app, what's it called?
 
I actually upgraded from a free account to the 'basic' account because I happen to need GPS guidance during my rides and I already liked what they were doing versus other apps on the Android platform.
 
86,

The paper gave a detailed list, yet general in content about the differences, and weaknesses of the two systems. Court does the same thing in his review under Pros/Cons, generalizations, not quantitative analysis.

I would agree with you that the paper cannot say ddhubs are 2x better than MD's, etc. "which is better" has to be weighted by the application and each parameter weighed by the users desires.

Take Noise for instance. If a MD makes some noise because of reduction gears, vs a silent dd hub, is that a deal maker? Probably not. If the MD is rolling at 25mph. The wind noise will drowned out the motor anyway. If you are on a quiet trail in the woods, the whirl or grind may annoy, yet it may be needed because a ddhub can't do the hills...

I get your point. Several of the claims are from the opinion of a ddhub advocate.
 
Bike_On said:
86,

The paper gave a detailed list, yet general in content about the differences, and weaknesses of the two systems. Court does the same thing in his review under Pros/Cons, generalizations, not quantitative analysis.

I would agree with you that the paper cannot say ddhubs are 2x better than MD's, etc. "which is better" has to be weighted by the application and each parameter weighed by the users desires.

Take Noise for instance. If a MD makes some noise because of reduction gears, vs a silent dd hub, is that a deal maker? Probably not. If the MD is rolling at 25mph. The wind noise will drowned out the motor anyway. If you are on a quiet trail in the woods, the whirl or grind may annoy, yet it may be needed because a ddhub can't do the hills...

I get your point. Several of the claims are from the opinion of a ddhub advocate.
Click to expand...
The piece bashes direct drive systems significantly. Telling the world that you are great and everyone else sucks has, in decades of consumer testing, been very poor in creating sales. Imagine how you feel shopping for a new car and have narrowed the choices down between a Honda and a Toyota. The Toyota guy tells you what a piece of s*it the Honda is and the Honda guy tells you that while Toyota makes fine cars, Honda's have proven themselves in reliability and resale value better than any other comparable model. You get the idea....
 
I don't know what all the complaints about noise are founded on. I strongly suspect that things have changed somewhat as I have a eight-month-old Optibike (Pioneer Allroad) middie that's as quiet as a church mouse. (I actually like the smooth, powerful purr of it's motor.) Just sayin'.
Allen
 
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