Wave E-bike 499$ (another Storm/Indiegogo)

[stevenast]

Reading this thread front to back, it became clear that you enjoy beating your dead horse. And that's more than a lexiconical cliche. The "dead horse" here is, really, the local bike shop. Your point is valid, certainly, but you're trashing *this* product specifically over your general *opinion* regarding online sales vs. in-store. We get it, you prefer to buy in a store. Good for you (and your local shop)... but that really has nothing to do with this topic, does it? Everyone understands there's a risk to "buying" something on Indigogo (of course, you're not really buying anything. You're "contributing" and, assuming all goes well, that contribution results in a stated "perk"... but no, nothing really stops the "seller" from just taking the money and failing at their business before your product is shipped). It isn't like online shopping just happened and everyone needs to be warned. You've said your piece, why not leave it at that and leave the discussion to the merits (or lack there of) of this particular bike?

Normally I wouldn't bother posting this, but since you chose to kind of twist my words to support your agenda, I felt obliged.


Interestingly enough, i already got a response from that Chinese "wave" seller! I didn't get a price - yet - but he attached this. It may or may not be the same info posted on the sales page, I didn't look that carefully. I post it here for your enjoyment (or not).

What amuses me is that their photo is taken with the pedal sitting on the ground. I wonder, did it fall off when the camera flashed?

Good points. What can I say about "expanding" on your post? It just seemed to be related at the time...

 

[stevenast]

@bcsteeve Actually I can't claim all of what you credit me with above! Some of the concepts I ostensibly support there are nearly opposite the reality.

I welcome your presence here, and look forward to more discussion. Hope to stay on your good side!

It's really great to have someone here who knows a lot about importing from China. I myself know nothing lol, as you probably noticed!

 

[bcsteeve]

I'm amazed I'm the first to post this... this email came to me 2 hours ago. Pretty big news and I wonder what chunk of the millions this shaves off their campaign?

New Campaign Update!
Hello Steven,
The ‘Wave Electric 28 MPH Bike’ team just posted:

1 new Announcement:

FINISH LINE UPDATES...
Thanks everyone for your continued support throughout this amazing campaign. We have been working diligently for the past month making sure Group 1 orders are accurate and want to update you on a few things here.
For those INTERNATIONAL contributors (outside the USA and Canada):
Unfortunately, we cannot proceed with your Wave Electric Bike order. We have had countless conversations and correspondence with customs and various governmental agencies in your country and it has become prohibitive and a huge liability to even attempt to send your bikes and their various accessories to your country. We attempted many, many times to get your local country to understand the electric bike market, but they don't seem to be cooperative. Their main concerns are the lithium-ion batteries and the top-speed of the bike. As far as your contributions, every backer with Indiegogo assumes all risk and it is a buyers beware system with crowd funding, HOWEVER, we have decided to refund 100% of your contributions because it's the right thing to do and we hope it will at least take the sting out of this bad news. The refunds are currently in progress as we have to coordinate with Paypal and Indiegogo. Furthermore, we encourage all of you to write letters to your various governments to have them re-evaluate their stance on electric bikes and become more progressive!
For those contributors within the USA and Canada:
Please make sure to pay for shipping ASAP if you have not yet done so already. Shipping within the lower 48 States is $199. Shipping to Hawaii, Alaska, and Canada is $250. Also, since the campaign will be ending in 2 days, please be sure to pay for any additional perks before the campaign ends. If you are in Group 2, we will be emailing you a new survey in which you can select your color preference, charger type, and shipping address confirmation. We will also send an update with this survey link as well, so stay tuned.
PAY LATER BALANCE DEADLINES
If you purchased the "Wave eBike Pay Later" option, stay tuned as we will be sending an update shortly with the exact deadlines for the "Pay Later" balance deadlines for Group 1 and Group 2.

 

[bcsteeve]

I welcome your presence here, and look forward to more discussion. Hope to stay on your good side!

Thanks for the welcome, and thanks for not taking my post the wrong way... I just re-read it and I'm not sure I worded it very well.

I'm still on the fence on this bike. I've been thinking about an ebike for while. I don't bike at all now. I just want a cheap mode of transportation that doesn't burn gas for my trips to the post office or down to the beach for volleyball in the summer. My wife and I share a single car and it sucks to tie it up for 5 hours while I'm smacking a ball around. If I can get some exercise at the same time, then great. But I live on the top of a fairly steep hill that I'm sure I couldn't pedal up without some assistance. I was going to get an e-moped or something, but I hesitate because of the insurance/licensing aspect.

Actually, now that I look at it, I guess this bike doesn't fit into my province's regulations regarding a pedal e-bike. Motor is too big and top speed is too fast. But the reality is... I can't imagine they'd actually investigate what kind of motor I have on my pedal bike. Maybe I'm wrong.

You guys know a lot more than I do about e-bikes. Is it feasible that this bike can get my 250lb arse up a half mile ~10%grade without me falling over and dying of exhaustion?

 

[bcsteeve]

Wow, I'm full of posts right now! Sorry for the rapid fire.

I just got a pricing response from China regarding this bike.

First... a one-off 500W shipped to Canada would be $1050. That's actually better than I expected.
If I were to buy a 40' container full (170 units), the shipped price to my nearest sea port would be $430 per bike. That's a LOT better than I expected, and perhaps puts this Wave into perspective! Here's the kicker... upgrading to a 750W motor only adds $20/bike. And, get this, upgrading to a 1000W motor adds $35/bike. So that means the landed price of the 750W would be $450. Remember, that's landed as a container to one location... so you have to compare this $450 to the cost not including the shipping. It is still going to cost a bunch to ship it from port to your door (and $200 to $250 sounds about right to me)

That may tell some of you that the Wave is more expensive than you can get from China direct, but that should be no surprise if you're willing to order 170 units!!! What it tells me is these guys are operating on a fairly slim margin. Granted, they probably negotiated a bit of a better price than I got on the first at-bat, but still... they're pricing it aggressively. Even if they are just ordering from Alibaba and reselling them, there's risk tying up that capital (I suppose less risk with CF since the capital is pre-funded) and a ton of work with the logistics.

So... anyone in the Vancouver area want to go halfers on bringing in 170 1000W bikes?

 

[pxpaulx]

@bcsteeve regarding the minimal cost for the difference in the motor wattage, there is a good possibility it would be the same motor that only has to be reprogrammed!

That is pretty big news from the wave campaign, good to see they are doing the right thing. It is most likely the speed of the bike that has caused the issue for them. Even in the US the top speed is not technically legal in most states.

 

[Mike Nowak]

Hello. I know next to nothing about bikes, "e" or otherwise. I saw the wave and did what I always do... research. That led me here and I just read all the posts.

While I don't know anything about bikes, I know a lot about Alibaba. My business has used Alibaba (and similar) for the last decade (well before Alibaba went public and everyone heard about it) to source services mostly, but also parts from overseas.

I'm not for or against this Wave and I'm not saying it is or isn't a good buy. But I want to offer some clarifications for those now seeing it "cheaper" on Alibaba and figuring this Indigogo campaign is ripping you off.

First, as suggested earlier, is the chicken and egg conundrum. While it is very possible (if not likely) that the Wave folks found a Chinese bike and are reselling it at a profit (as though that's never happened before)... it is also possible that the Wave folks put together something, their Chinese counterparts saw the success of the campaign, and are now offering it direct. Which is it? Who cares really, because the following points are more important.

You CANT buy a single unit from China cheaper than you're going to get it from the campaign. I don't care how it appears. I know this from experience that if they say $300, that's just to get you to look. When dollars actually exchange hands, it is at a much higher price with a thousand excuses why. I know that's how it works because I've gone through it so many times. In fact, just two days ago I settled on a batch of 5000 LM386 chips from this supplier and do you think I paid between "$0.001-0.002" per piece? They were $0.08 a piece and I was happy to get it at that price. The stated price means NOTHING on Alibaba. Their one-off subsidiary, on the other hand, which is aliexpress.com is a different matter. If you can find the same product there, you *might* be getting it at the price they say... but that price is always higher (even then, read carefully). If you can find the same bike there (I couldn't) then you start to see what the actual cost is.

I have an account at Alibaba (obviously) as well as a buyers' history, meaning I'm going to get a more solid response to a "how much" question than someone new (reputation matters more to the Chinese than you might think). I've asked what the cost is. If I get a response (you only do about 40% of the time) with an actual number (20%) I'll reply with it here.

But let's pretend it really is on the up-and-up. Wave is charging $200 to $250 for shipping. You think you'll get that from China? Good bloody luck. Alibaba sellers expect YOU to arrange shipping on a container ship. Otherwise, it is UPS/DHL/FedEX and that's $$$. You'll probably pay > $1000 to ship a bike that you probably can't even buy. And compare apples to apples... 750W instead of 500W.

Again, I'm not making ANY judgements on the bike. I'm just saying, no matter how good or bad the Wave is, you can't compare the price to some practically random posting on Alibaba.


While not a fair comparisson, consider this: http://www.aliexpress.com

48V, 750W, 12aH Samsung battery, 26" wheels... sure, its a different bike entirely, but work with me here. it is a made-in-China e-bike and this is the CHEAPEST one on Aliexpress (remember, that's Alibaba but for one-off sales and you actually get a price) and it is $1542.55... PLUS $773.68 SHIPPING to the USA!!!

 

[Mike Nowak]

Thanks for this information. I bought in to the Wave last week with perk upgrades, 6 speed gears, thick tubes with slime, (will probably add liners shortly after receiving the bike" front wheel quick release, for disassemble locking and a basket. I live in Phoenix so it's pretty flat here. Great city for urban commuting. The e-bike comes into play for me since at 58 years old, commuting to work (10 miles) on a peddle bike in the summer months when temps here hit 120 or so is a health risk. I am looking forward to receiving my wave in August and after reading these threads for a few days now,am confident that it will be a sweet deal for me. I have a Trek 7.2 that I ride daily and have been biking since I was 4 if you count my first trike.

 

[edrie]

Hi all, new member here. And feeling a bit of a fool. Here's the "update" from Wave I received today (and yes, I bought into the Wave bike a few months back, they have my $599+$199 shipping and the promise was July 2015 ship date). I'm not a total idiot, I'm well-versed in federal regulations, how to locate relevant ones, etc. This may not be my area of expertise but I simply can't find any "new" federal regs that would appear to cover this situation. So my question to everyone: is this first indication of a scam, do others with way more knowledge about batteries think this is a legitimate issue? Before I ditch this product and ask for a refund, what are the odds I'll actually get my money back or is it still worth waiting for?

Federal regulations regarding lithium-ion batteries have become more and more strict each and every month, which has caused a significant, and disappointing, delay in shipping the Wave to our backers. Most notably, our original battery manufacturer did not supply us, nor can they offer us, the required United Nations (UN) certified battery test and therefore we are forced to use a new lithium-ion battery manufacturer who can provide this required certified test. If you're interested in this topic, please review this article:
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

After weeks of searching, we found the proper battery supplier, but unfortunately this means that the cells in each battery will most likely not include Samsung cells, but rather a generic set of cells found standard in most non-Samsung cell electric bikes. In addition, first deliveries of the Wave Electric Bike are pushed back, and we are estimating initial delivery in September 2015.​

 

[George S.]

This campaign has been taking on water since they announced they could not fulfill International orders. But they still seem to be unable to issue refunds, as they stated would be done. Then they said the bike would only go 28 mph if the owner disabled a circuit, shifting the legal responsibility to the buyer. It was billed as a 28 mph ebike, but now it is a 20 mph ebike.

They seem to be offering an excuse to give you second rate cells, after clearly stating these would be Samsung cells. I've tried to interest people who see problems with the Sondors campaign to look at this campaign. No luck.

The comments over there, on IGG, are now boiling over with rage. If there is some easy way to get out, pursue it, but IGG does not want you to get out.

 

[livejamie]

People in the Facebook group are pretty upset: https://www.facebook.com/groups/WaveEbikeOwners/

 

[JayMankito]

Hello. Edrie, I hear you! I am also, regrettably, a Wave buyer, and today's email pretty much confirmed my suspicions that we all have been HAD. I'm an attorney at a large law firm and I casually consulted with a trade attorney who said that the language about the federal government changing regs "each and every month" had BS written all over it. I mean, we don't have to go any further than these people calling their product "28 MPH" then suddenly acting as if they just learned that according to federal and state regulations e-bikes have to max at 20. (Funny how somehow they missed THAT reg but not the ones about the batteries!) On another forum a couple weeks ago I saw someone say that a lot of Indiegogo businesses are trying to raise money to just steal it, thinking that they can do so based on Indiegogo's warning language that campaign contributions are final and at your own risk. However, it is not true that fraud, lies, cheating, stealing etc. can be just signed away. I want my money back. I think it'd be great for the whole crowdfunding movement--which I generally love--as well as the e-bike industry if all or many contributors demanded their money back both through Indiegogo and the Wave business.

 

[edrie]

Thanks, George. Yeah, it does seem as if they are working their way up to a major law suit now that the promised battery is toast. I have just opened a support ticket with Indigogo but I expect I'll be one of hundreds. Other than persuing a legal action using the California Attorney General, wondering what other actions seem like to result in refunds?

This campaign has been taking on water since they announced they could not fulfill International orders. But they still seem to be unable to issue refunds, as they stated would be done. Then they said the bike would only go 28 mph if the owner disabled a circuit, shifting the legal responsibility to the buyer. It was billed as a 28 mph ebike, but now it is a 20 mph ebike.

They seem to be offering an excuse to give you second rate cells, after clearly stating these would be Samsung cells. I've tried to interest people who see problems with the Sondors campaign to look at this campaign. No luck.

The comments over there, on IGG, are now boiling over with rage. If there is some easy way to get out, pursue it, but IGG does not want you to get out.

 

[edrie]

This seems to have class action by the CA AG all over it, doesn't it? The campaign raised over $800,000. That's not chump change.

Hello. Edrie, I hear you! I am also, regrettably, a Wave buyer, and today's email pretty much confirmed my suspicions that we all have been HAD. I'm an attorney at a large law firm and I casually consulted with a trade attorney who said that the language about the federal government changing regs "each and every month" had BS written all over it. I mean, we don't have to go any further than these people calling their product "28 MPH" then suddenly acting as if they just learned that according to federal and state regulations e-bikes have to max at 20. (Funny how somehow they missed THAT reg but not the ones about the batteries!) On another forum a couple weeks ago I saw someone say that a lot of Indiegogo businesses are trying to raise money to just steal it, thinking that they can do so based on Indiegogo's warning language that campaign contributions are final and at your own risk. However, it is not true that fraud, lies, cheating, stealing etc. can be just signed away. I want my money back. I think it'd be great for the whole crowdfunding movement--which I generally love--as well as the e-bike industry if all or many contributors demanded their money back both through Indiegogo and the Wave business.

 

[JayMankito]

I strongly urge everyone that contributed to immediately contact your credit card companies and dispute the charge. This should result in a freeze on their funds pending an investigation and hopefully that will pressure Wave into going out of business.

 

[bcsteeve]

Guys... class action for what? Refund for what?

Remember people.... it is a crowd funding campaign to support a start-up. You aren't "purchasing" anything. You're supporting them in hopes they can deliver on a "perk" or "reward" for supporting them. That is the inherent risk in KickStarter/Indiegogo/etc. You may (or may not) receive what you anticipate. They might give it their best shot, fail completely... and well, everyone tried.

What taints this in particular is I really do feel they were just reselling something that was made-to-order by a different company, which entirely goes against the spirit of a crowdfunding campaign. So I have to qualms against them getting their arses sued off... but I doubt you'd get very far.

Still, the guy's not lying through his teeth. There really ARE strict regulations with the shipping of lithium batteries. It comes down to the transport and (consequently) import and not much more. It stems from a FedEx plane that caught fire due to a lithium battery back explosion.

 

[edrie]

Actually, he is "lying through his teeth." He states in today's update: "Federal regulations regarding lithium-ion batteries have become more and more strict each and every month, which has caused a significant, and disappointing, delay in shipping the Wave to our backers." There have been NO changes to federal regulations regarding lithium-ion batteries recently. The article he linked to is to the Dept of Transportation's Pipeline and Hazardous Materials Safety Administration; a search there provides the following:

PHMSA is extending the mandatory compliance date of a final rule for lithium battery transportation published on August 6, 2014 under Docket No. HM-224F from February 6, 2015 until August 7, 2015. This revision is made in response to formal comments received from multiple stakeholders outlining challenges faced by the regulated community in fully implementing the provisions of the final rule in conformance with the February 6, 2015 mandatory compliance date. The original compliance date of February 6, 2015 remains in place for offering, accepting, and transporting by aircraft. (emphasis added)​

So, nothing new regarding transporting by air. NTSB has 2 open recommendations on lithium batteries and as yet, no final action with limited interim recommendations.

(I did mention I know my way around federal rulemaking, right?)

Still, the guy's not lying through his teeth. There really ARE strict regulations with the shipping of lithium batteries. It comes down to the transport and (consequently) import and not much more. It stems from a FedEx plane that caught fire due to a lithium battery back explosion.

 

[JayMankito]

bcsteeve, It sure feels like your post is a classic sort of 'inside job'. Why would you just happen to be posting a defense of these guys if you weren't a contributor or a friend of theirs? The fact is, putting a campaignon Indiegogo does not mean you can just go and steal money from people. I strongly suspect that if the community of us who likely have been burned by this joins together to complain to the state and federal authorities AND sues them that under investigation and deposition it will be revealed that their entire effort was a deliberate fraud. The thing that keeps nagging me goes back to their claim that all of a sudden they learned they couldn't sell a 28 mph bike. That's something anyone in that business would learn IMMEDIATELY upon researching the matter, whether by visiting a retailer, casually doing a search of the laws, or etc. THEY KNEW, yet even now they continue to market he product as a 28 mph rig.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I strongly urge everyone that contributed to immediately contact your credit card companies and dispute the charge. This should result in a freeze on their funds pending an investigation and hopefully that will pressure Wave into going out of business.

This and 100 times this..!!
My strong hunch is that this bike/campaign is total BS.
Some street smart guy saw how Storm marketed the campaign, dressed like him with hat & all and lured 100's of gullible people into this.

@JayMankito @edrie @bcsteeve et al., hope you get your refund back.

/ end of rant and my participation in this topic.

 

[George S.]

This is nuts. Pedego had to recall 5,000 ebike packs because of over-heating and fires. They switched to Samsung cells for quality control. Wave is saying they can't get the 'good' cells cleared, but they can the less safe cells? Why wouldn't the battery pack maker use Samsung cells?

Pedego launched the recall, which involves approximately 5,000 batteries, around the beginning of the year after receiving two complaints from customers whose batteries overheated and melted while charging, said Terry Sherry, the company's co-founder and CFO.

"The first time it's like, what the heck just happened?' Sherry said. "After the second time, you start asking questions and doing the research."

He said the battery issue stemmed from an apparent manufacturing problem. A film corrodes inside the battery cell that serves as a barrier between the anode and cathode, allowing the battery to short and overheat.

"The challenge we have is that we have no way of knowing how many cells have that potential problem. We know it was a small group but we don't know which cells they were," Sherry said. He declined to name the manufacturer, which is based in China.

In September 2013, Pedego decided to begin sourcing all e-bike batteries from Samsung. Pedego has advertised the recall through its website and Facebook page, and through its retailers. It also operates a website, www.batteryrecall2015.com, where consumers can see if their battery is covered by the recall.

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/recalls/2015/02/09/pedego-recalls-5-000-e-bike-batteries#.VZ3C5PlVhBc