very long monthly commute

[ilicet]

Hello peoples, I'm trying to figure out which ebike would best suit my needs. I want to mention before anything else, i am planning on buying multiple batteries for this commute, not expecting an ebike to get me there on a single charge and I don't really feel like stopping to charge along the way. The bikes I'm looking at currently are the Trek Crossrip+ (really wish they made a 520+), Smart Motion Pacer (if it's still available), cube touring hybrid pro 500 2018, IZIP E3 Moda, and others mostly mid drives. I've also mostly been looking at ebikes with bosch motors since I can't find any website that sells Brose battery packs, and since I need, or want, to carry more than one battery.. if i can't find extra batteries there's no real point in considering them.

What it needs to do :
1. Take me from home to a work location 140 miles away and back once a month.
2. Haul a euphonium (in a hardshell case) roughly 40lbs as well as clothes for a weekend. I have thought about attaching a bicycle trailer and using that to carry the euphonium and using regular panniers to carry the other stuff.
3. Be safe to ride at speed, and comfortable for a ~8 hr ride (i will probably stop along the way to stretch and eat) as well as handle rain well.

During the winter, I'm either going to drive or take a train, but during good weather I really want to work at getting back into shape, and bicycling i think is an enjoyable way of doing that. The furthest I've ever ridden on a bike is 67 miles one way (2016), stopping every hour for ten minutes to recoup a little. I averaged 14mph on that trip even with stopping to walk the bike up a very very steep hill and slowing down considerably as i neared my destination as it became a constant climb. That was with a cheap bike from Amazon, so I figure with a good ebike, i should be able to go 140 miles in one long day and with each trip I would expect it to become easier as I became more fit. I'm hoping to spend less than 3k on the bike, since bosch 500 watt batteries cost essentially 1k and I will probably need 3 total. That being said, currently the bike that has most of my attention is the Crossrip+ which sits at around 4.5k. The Riese & Müller bikes are awesome, but 6k for the Riese & Müller Charger GX Rohloff just feels out of my reach.

Thanks for any help

 

[michael mitchell]

I think for that type of distance, you'll need more than 2 bosch batteries. Unless you're looking to use very little assist. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken. You have to factor in things like wind, gradual reduction in battery capacity, or lower temperates (mid 50's and lower). Those will reduce your range, so if you were just barely in range during ideal conditions, you're toast.

 

[ilicet]

i agree, i said i would probably need 3. Most of the bikes I'm looking at claim to have 90 mile ranges, which I interpret as ~60 miles, so 3 batteries should suffice. Since I'm looking to improve my fitness level, I would stray away from using anything above the tour pedal assist, which is usually the middle one i think, eco, tour, sport. I may need 4 batteries to be on the extra safe side, but I'm planning on needing those regardless of bike choice. I am trying to figure out which ebike would best be able to meet my needs, the number of batteries I end up needing doesn't factor into my decision. Thanks

 

[Mr. Coffee]

That is a very ambitious day.

You might check out the Bosch Range Calculator to help you estimate how many batteries you might need. Realistically I'd say 3 500wh batteries would be a minimum.

The extra gear and the trailer are likely to have a significant impact on your estimated range.

 

[ilicet]

That is a very ambitious day.

You might check out the Bosch Range Calculator to help you estimate how many batteries you might need. Realistically I'd say 3 500wh batteries would be a minimum.

The extra gear and the trailer are likely to have a significant impact on your estimated range.

I'm working on the assumption that if i could go 67 miles in 4 hours on a regular bicycle, i should be able to go 140 miles in ~8 hours on an ebike. Regardless of the batteries though... do you have any ideas which ebike would work out the best? I won't know how many batteries it will take until I figure out which ebike to get. The extra luggage weight is me anticipating worst possibility. On average I would be carrying myself, a pair of boots, and two pairs of clothes. When I road 67 miles in 4 hours I was carrying a lot of extra weight, a lot of camping supplies, clothes for a week, food, computer etc.. I easily added at least 40lbs to my bike.. I'm more interested in picking out the right ebike right now, than I am worrying about how many batteries it will take to help me accomplish my goal.

 

[rich c]

A regular ebike weighs maybe just under 60lbs. Add two more batteries for another 16 pounds, and 40lbs of gear. Then add in the trailer, a fair amount of tools and spare tubes. That means the bike and gear will be around 125 pounds. Then if you want to average 17.5mph for 8 hours, you'll need to be around 25mph for a fair amount. You'll be stopping at least twice to eat, then switching water bottles or backpack bladders (I forgot to add the weight for at least a gallon of water and energy snacks). I'm guessing you'll be stopped at least an hour for riding the whole day. So the speed for 140 miles for 7 hours is a 20mph average. Hope the route is flat, that's an ambitious plan! Then the financials, $4,500 for the bike and another $2,000 for batteries. Add in the food and spare parts. That would pay for a LOT of train rides!

 

[ilicet]

A regular ebike weighs maybe just under 60lbs. Add two more batteries for another 16 pounds, and 40lbs of gear. Then add in the trailer, a fair amount of tools and spare tubes. That means the bike and gear will be around 125 pounds. Then if you want to average 17.5mph for 8 hours, you'll need to be around 25mph for a fair amount. You'll be stopping at least twice to eat, then switching water bottles or backpack bladders (I forgot to add the weight for at least a gallon of water and energy snacks). I'm guessing you'll be stopped at least an hour for riding the whole day. So the speed for 140 miles for 7 hours is a 20mph average. Hope the route is flat, that's an ambitious plan! Then the financials, $4,500 for the bike and another $2,000 for batteries. Add in the food and spare parts. That would pay for a LOT of train rides!

That's true, i have 6-7 years left on my contract, that's 1014 dollars for the train over 6.5 years, much cheaper than a Crossrip+. I still think I could do it though, maybe without the euphonium and trailer. I road 67 miles with a lot of gear, on the highest gear (because i was stupid and had never needed to shift out of top gear in town, so i didn't think about it on the road) on a regular cheap road bike averaging 14 mph, and did physical work once I got to my destination for another 4 hours. I guess the smart bet would be to figure out which bike to get, and do trial runs to half battery then turn back and see how far I went. The plus side to riding long distances is, just like when you drive long distances, i could stop at a gas station and buy / consume electrolytes and water, as well as protein. I'm still not sure which bike would suit me best, there aren't very many options with drop bars. Google estimates it to be 12-13hrs and they calculate that with an average of 12mph, and I'm fairly confident i could, with assistance during inclines, make the trip at a better clip than that. I think people are assuming I would be using pedal assist the ENTIRE time.. I don't think I would need to. I just want a bike, and tires that are tough enough to not break down over a long trek like that. Touring bikes are usually steel frames to provide that strength and toughness over long hauls and I haven't seen any ebikes like that. I'm still waiting for someone to give a recommendation on an ebike haha! The Trek Crossrip+ is meant to commute not tour, and what I'm wanting to do is more like touring than commuting. The only reason the Crossrip+ is on my radar is because I was looking at buying a Trek 520 and converting it to an ebike, and I am comfortable with that body and handle bar style. I've very open to other options!

 

[larry-new]

(Flugel player here) Better to get a spare horn and leave it at the gig than all this expenditure for transport. The Euph. is an unwieldy size that would only be safe in a trailer and never high on a rack or backpack....no way would I have put one on my maxiscooter when I had one, let alone a bike! A Cornet fit just fine, btw...

 

[rich c]

There is this Haibike option, but considerably above your 3k; (Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

Remember that Bosch mid drives are geared up in the motor. 1 revolution of the crank is 2 1/2 at the chainring. That means you have to overcome that additional effort if not using any pedal assist.

 

[christob]

I'm afraid I don't have anywhere near enough experience with other models to make a recommendation to you. And my longest single day ride has only been 50 miles over a leisurely six or seven hours
One question; do you have the option to leave any batteries and/or a charger at the destination, full-time? You'll need to charge all the batteries you carry, once you get there, in order to make the return trip. If there was a secure place to store some of that, it could help a little bit.

 

[indianajo]

I'm very negative on bike trailers. They create a lot of wind drag with all that frontal area, don't brake very fast, and are tricky to hook up .
With all that gear, a road bike like the haibike xduro-race will be unbalanced rear heavy. I've found a rear heavy bike will whip the front wheel sideways on obstructions, and throw me over the handlebars. Your results may vary. This setup threw me 5 times in 5 years, breaking my chin the last time. Thrice with no cargo but tire tools.
Even with a second baritone in storage at the gig city, four batteries plus tire tools and household items gets up to a 40 lb load. Stretch bike has extra frame behind the seat and transfers your weight to the front wheel. Without the wind drag of those huge front bin dutch cargo bikes.
I'd say look at stretch frame cargo bikes http://cargocycling.org/category/long_bike
and think about installing an aftermarket drop handlebar and a hub motor kit. That options cuts your costs to ~3500-4000 . The advantage of hubmotor, you don't have to replace the chain after 1000 miles. Second advantage you have a selection of front sprocket ratios. Disadvantage of hub drives, It takes an extra 5 to 10 minutes to disconnect the wires and torque arms while changing a tube.
I'd also say look at converting any mid drive bike or kit to generic connectors so you can get generic batteries with an X2-S or Andrsn connector that aren't so **** pricey. You do have to build a mount instead of just snapping it on the bike. I built mine out of aluminum strip and angle, and screw the battery to the frame so it takes tools to take it off to prevent theft while the bike sits unattended. Elastic lock nuts are beyond most casual theives patience level. Your quick change requirement may involve something like a bin. I have my battery mounted on the front of the bike to balence the rear load.
Look at surly big dummy, kona ute, xtracycle, radwagon. Some are aluminum frame, some are steel. Yuba has front bin mounts that are fixed and the battery doesn't rotate with the front tire. But Yuba you can't change the handlebar & stem, they are custom diameter.
The hubmotors are not that much drag either riding with a dead battery. At least the ones without battery charging feature are.
One disadvantage of carrying the baritone, besides the wind drag, is the chance of losing it while you are in the toilet. Instrument cases do not tend to be sturdy enough to promote high security fastening with a cable or whatever. If your instrument is particularly valuable or the quirks affect your playing, overnight delivery by UPS/FedEx is probably a better option than carrying it.

 

[Over50]

.... The Riese & Müller bikes are awesome, but 6k for the Riese & Müller Charger GX Rohloff just feels out of my reach ...

I'd consider stretching the budget a bit given your unique requirements. That's a really long trip and you also want comfort and reliability along with performance and range. Maybe you'd find yourself using the bike so much for other riding, besides the long commute, that it would help justify the price. But good thing about dual-battery option bikes, for your use-case, is obviously you've got a purpose-made spot to carry a second battery. In addition the dual-battery bikes will extend your battery life by managing the draw-down of the mounted batteries. As expensive as batteries are that is a plus. Whereas if you are running a battery almost all the way down and then stopping to switch to a fresh pack that might shorten their lives. You probably still might not manage all 140 miles on 2 batteries but you could carry the 3rd and switch it out mid-ride and you'd likely make it with just one swap of one battery.

Have you checked out the Haibikes that allow two batteries with the rail system? Not sure how readily available they are in the US right now. In 2019, Riese and Muller will introduce the MultiCharger which allows for a lot more cargo capacity. No idea on price for that but undoubtedly won't be cheap.

I'm assuming for that distance you are only considering class 3 bikes? But if class 1 is a consideration you might look at the Tern GSD. It will haul all your stuff and is dual-battery. Comfort for that long of a ride might be an issue on the GSD. I find the GSD comfortable from a riding position but the hands can take a beating if you have rough roads. Fortunately there is a lot you can do with the GSD to mitigate the comfort issues (suspension seat post, tire pressure, supports multiple ride positions). The stock Super Moto X tires are wonderful and the heavy duty brakes are a dream on that bike. Also keeping those speeds below 20 mph (with a class 1) will extend your range. The GSD with 2 batteries will set you back close to $5K. Add the cargo accessories and a 3rd battery and you are easily over $6K. So competitive with a Riese and Muller dual-battery setup.

 

[ebikemom]

I’m so glad to be a flutist! ?

On the question at hand, I’m super impressed with your ambition!!

I’d be worried about breaking down. Unlike cars, no easy roadside support or local fixit shops for ebike related issues...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

@Over50 made all of the recommendations I was going to make.

 

[Nova Haibike]

I think people are assuming I would be using pedal assist the ENTIRE time.. I don't think I would need to.

If you have test ridden an e-bike yet, I think you will find that they are barely tolerable without power. Some of them have even have additional drag when not using the motor. Given the weight of the bike, extra batteries, and gear you may be carrying, I think you should assume that you will be using pedal assist the majority of the time, even if it is the lower/lowest setting.

 

[ebikemom]

Test riding will be fun and experience is a great teacher. And, if you decide that the commute isn’t doable, you could enjoy the ebike for so many other daily life reasons!

 

[Bicyclista]

Your butt is going to hurt after sitting on a bike saddle for eight hours or more!

I agree with @indianajo that a cargo bike would be a better solution than a bike trailer. If you need to maintain an average speed of 20mph, a bike trailer may overturn as you make a turn. It happened to me more than once with a Burley Travoy trailer, and I was only doing about 10mph.

Also, think about how you are going to recharge 3 batteries. Most ebike chargers only charge one battery at a time, and it takes four hours to fully charge a battery. You'll need 3 chargers or some kind of reminder...

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

It is completely possible to do 140 mile trip once a month on an E-bike that costs $3.5K, it is just that you have to go DIY route.
Having done several 150 miles/day trips, I can tell you, you need at least 2000 whr of batteries.

There is only one production-ready ebike that could do 140 miles on a charge. It's the Delfast but availability is a question mark.

https://delfastbikes.com/

The more expensive option would be to get a dual battery Haibike (available now) or Riese & Muller (available now/wait time).

You could also build very reliable pedal assist E-bike using a Surly Dummy or Xtracycle cargo bike frame like this and use a 52V,31Ah battery with a 8A cycle satiator charger. You could do 75 miles in 4 hours and stop for an hour or two for food and charging before doing another 65 miles.

http://lucerobnett.com/surly-big-dummy-e-bike/

Here is the battery I am talking about: https://em3ev.com/shop/50v-14s9p-large-triangle-pack/

For $4.5K, you could even have a Rohloff wheel built along with a Bafang. There are quite a lot of Bafang vendors who will be willing to work with you to provide support.

 

[indianajo]

I have a yubabikes bodaboda long cargo bike , which suits me fine, but has a stem and handlebar incompatible with replacement with drop bars. Also the frame is a little small, which suits me fine, but maybe not a real European or Asian with standard sized legs. The 26x2" tires ride okay and last about 1500 miles in the thick rubber off road tread Kendas. The original road tires (freedomcycle) on the bodaboda lasted about 700 miles on the back and 1000 on the front. I ride about 2000 miles a year, half of them with 50 lb supplies for my summer camp.
That surly bigdummy in post 18 has been converted with a middrive motor and an 11 speed hub. Good thing he is on a small island, as that chain would probably wear out in 1000 miles. Seven and eight speed chains typically last at least 8000 miles pedaling the old way. Hubmotor, we'll see, but I rode a direct drive 1000 W one without a battery for 20 miles and found it less drag than a 5 mph headwind. The geared hubmotors drag less than that since they have a one way clutch.
Notice the radwagon cargo bike comes with a hubmotor from the factory.
I found an IGH hub, the 8 spd sturmey archer, added half an hour to my 30 mile commute versus derailleur hub, without power. All those internal gears whirl around all the time. So I wouldn't consider a Rohloff.

 

[ilicet]

@Over50 made all of the recommendations I was going to make.

I appreciated it, i think taking the train is probably the easiest, smartest way to go for now. If in the future Trek comes out with an electric version of a 520, i might go for that or i might get a Crossrip+ or one of the other drop bar ebikes for in town riding or shorter trips. I hadn't thought about the extra drag ebikes have when not using the assist, and the idea of the weather turning bad during a long ride and draining the batteries isn't very appealing. If I did attempt the ride, adding a trailer is completely unfeasible, and transporting the euph on a bike is impractical. I think I was overly ambitious, and that's probably an understatement.