Upgrading Rad Mini Step-Thru power via motor or electronics?

[tripntx]

My wife's bike will receive abuse from not using proper gear selection when starting from a stand still. Her bike must remain easy for her to control. While I would like for her bike to be able to have modest speed/torque increase for crossing intersections from a stand-still, her bikes motor will definitely need the ability to withstand abuse from wrong gear selection.

Sorry I'm adding this in, but it may be useful to other newbs. I made the original post on May 20th, and really didn't know much about E-Bikes. Most of my reading had been on Mid-Drive. I wasn't dwelling on this, but yesterday, June 1st, while wife and I were riding, it all of a sudden came to me why people say Mid-Drive motors can be abused from improper gear selection, while Hub-Drive is not affected.
Hub-Drive supplies power to turn rear wheel without the need for a chain &/or sprockets. Chain & sprockets have no impact on the rear wheel.
Mid-Drive requires front sprocket, rear sprockets, and chain to operate.

Edited additions in red bold. The concerns I had about the motor were based upon my lack of knowledge on pedal assist bikes, and more specifically about geared hub motors.

Based upon above information:
1. Which upgrade would be best for Mini Step-Thru, larger magnet motor or new electronics via KT Controller/Display?
Upgrade probably not be needed. Controller/display would be item to upgrade.
2. Would the upgraded Bafang 750w geared hub motor with larger magnet provide improved performance if retaining stock RadPower electronics?
Winding's appear to be the same on these motors, with only the magnet being larger. No reason to upgrade the motor, nothing is wrong with it. The smaller magnet stock motor can handle more amps to produce higher wattage. If an upgrade is desired, then electronics would be items to upgrade.
3. Would the upgraded Bafang 750w geared hub motor with larger magnet be able to handle more abuse from starting off at stand still with wrong gear selected if retaining stock RadPower electronics?
Factory hub motor can handle plenty of abuse, no reason to upgrade it at this time.
4. Would KT Controller & KT LHC8H be a better upgrade for her Mini over the stronger motor?
Yes, if upgrade is desired, then upgrading the electronics would be the better item to upgrade.
5. Should I upgrade both motor & KT Controller/Display on her Mini?
No, it doesn't appear my wife's mini requires an upgrade at this time. My limited knowledge was primarily from reading about BBS02 & BBSHD mid-drives, and I was applying what I had been reading to hub drives.
6. If upgrading Mini to KT Electronics, what would be a good starting point for amp setting? I have read RadPower has amps restricted to something like 12amp in factory electronics, which seems pretty low for a 750w E-Bike.
Canadian models could be restricted to 11 or so amps, but not USA models. USA models are probably restricted to approx 15.625 amps with a 48vDC battery to comply with 750 wattage. With that said, if I was updating the electronics on my wife's mini, then I would set the amps to approx 21 amps max.
Or, maybe they are limiting it by wattage instead of AMPS.
7. Concerning amperage, what is the upper limit you would allow if not replacing existing battery harness? This might not be an issue, but I do not know what gauge wire harness Rad is using on their bikes.
I believe 35 amp would be max for limited time spans from factory harness. If I install Bolton's controller/display upgrade kit on my Rover, then I will set 30 amp as the safe max amperage limit for my use. That would be 1440 watts from 48vDC, and is almost doubled what Rad has them rated for. I'm sure this high of a wattage would only be for short bursts.

Background: Been researching E-bikes for a few weeks. We took a two hour tour with ZippEBikes in Galveston last Saturday. Wife feel in love with the Rad Mini Step-Thru, and I had a blast on the RadRover. On Sunday we ordered a white RadMini Step-Thru and a white RadRover.

I'm a newby here, new to E-Bikes as well as to fat tire bikes. Retired from USAF 12 years ago after 21 years of service. Wife and I in our early 50's. We camp a lot with our motorhome, and will take the RadPower bikes with us on camping trips. We intend to ride them regularly as a way to start exercising again.

I've been riding a SOMA Smoothie for a few years. Wife has a Jamis Citizen 2, but has never taken to riding, although she is pumped about the Mini Step-Thru. She said she felt in control, safe and balanced on it.

Last but not least, yes it is typical for me to start researching, and to order upgrade parts before new item has arrived.

Edited to add: I learned from below responses that these HUB motor's hold up better than I thought they would from abuse. I had been researching BBS02, BBSHD, and TSDZ2 mid drive kits prior to ordering these Rad's.


Regards,
Tripntx

 

[AHicks]

When talking hub motor, the motor doesn't really care what gear it's in when you take off. The mid motor setups will definetly care! All else being equal, the more power you give a hub motor, the faster it takes off. The more power it has (OEM narrow motor, vs. aftermarket wide motor), the faster it's going to take off.

Regarding what gear you are in when you take off, that's going to control how much assist your efforts are going to be able to supply - the percentage of the power YOU are supplying.

I would suggest you wait for the bikes to arrive, assemble them carefully, then ride them at least 50 miles to get a good feel for what you have. THEN deal with any short comings you experience with a clear idea of what it is you're trying to accomplish. That will let your research zero in/focus on specific issues much more effectively.

Note worthy possibly, is the fact my wife loved bike riding, but had never spent any time on anything that worked better when shifted. It took her a couple of seasons of riding while watching me to figure it out. She's now fairly accomplished and does a pretty good job. Point being, don't give up on her. Give her time to come up to speed.

 

[tripntx]

When talking hub motor, the motor doesn't really care what gear it's in when you take off. The mid motor setups will definetly care! All else being equal, the more power you give a hub motor, the faster it takes off. The more power it has (OEM narrow motor, vs. aftermarket wide motor), the faster it's going to take off.

Regarding what gear you are in when you take off, that's going to control how much assist your efforts are going to be able to supply - the percentage of the power YOU are supplying.

I would suggest you wait for the bikes to arrive, assemble them carefully, then ride them at least 50 miles to get a good feel for what you have. THEN deal with any short comings you experience with a clear idea of what it is you're trying to accomplish. That will let your research zero in/focus on specific issues much more effectively.

Note worthy possibly, is the fact my wife loved bike riding, but had never spent any time on anything that worked better when shifted. It took her a couple of seasons of riding while watching me to figure it out. She's now fairly accomplished and does a pretty good job. Point being, don't give up on her. Give her time to come up to speed.

Thank you, good advice.

 

[harryS]

I have some ebikes with geared motors similar in power to the Rads, and some with probably less than half the power. Crossing an intersection using the throttle is a lot easier on the motor than trying to climb a hill w/o pedaling help. Actually, I think it's a non-event for even my smallest motor. I do it every day anyway.

Understand we're not trying to dash in front of a speeding train here. We just want to cross the intersection w/o standing on the pedals like regular bikers.

After you two do it a few times, I don't expect either of you to be wanting to upgrade just for that reason.

 

[tripntx]

What is KT LHC8H? I couldn't find anyone on Google. Did you mean LCD8H?
Also I searched for KT controller, and there are whole bunch of controller that starts with KT, isn't that just a product code?

If you want to upgrade the motor, I think a lot of Rad Power owners will agree that Bolton is pretty much a go-to tuner.
They're famous for 35A controller, which is 1680W max when used with 48V battery.
(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

The 12amp controller and 48V battery will work out to be 576W, not 750W.

You should watch Bolton's YouTube channel, you will learn a lot especially if you're beginner, so well worth your time.

More videos: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC8pIKzo5py1zt3U2O-Bqo3A/videos

Meant LCD8H, but wrote LHC8H because I work on analytical equipment in Light Hydrocarbons plants, and LHC8 is a plant near me, LOL.

It might have been the Canadian bikes where I saw RadPower was restricted to 11 or 12 amps, which makes sense based upon the figures you supplied.

It is Bolton's kit I was thinking about if we needed to upgrade my wife's electronics. With that said, I want Bolton's Rad Upgrade kit on my RadRover.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[tripntx]

I have some ebikes with geared motors similar in power to the Rads, and some with probably less than half the power. Crossing an intersection using the throttle is a lot easier on the motor than trying to climb a hill w/o pedaling help. Actually, I think it's a non-event for even my smallest motor. I do it every day anyway.

Understand we're not trying to dash in front of a speeding train here. We just want to cross the intersection w/o standing on the pedals like regular bikers.

After you two do it a few times, I don't expect either of you to be wanting to upgrade just for that reason.

I was really worried she would fry her motor within a year, so this information is very helpful. I'm very happy to learn this motor takes more abuse than the mid drive kits I had been researching. Thank you.

 

[rich c]

My advice, stop over analyzing it. They are bicycles after all. Rad has to have sold thousands and thousands without anyone ever upgrading the components. Even cheaper eBikes get thousands of miles put on them every year. Any eBike is ridable if you don't expect it to ride like a motorcycle. What you will need to be concerned about since you ordered from an internet only eBike company, is how good your electrical troubleshooting skills are. Your only link to technical help will be here and on a telephone. That is the leap that so many underestimate. I've read thousands of posts on forums that the eBike owner doesn't even own a multimeter. They ask about all the electrical components and all they really know is that it doesn't go. That is where you should be doing your research.

 

[tripntx]

My advice, stop over analyzing it. They are bicycles after all. Rad has to have sold thousands and thousands without anyone ever upgrading the components. Even cheaper eBikes get thousands of miles put on them every year. Any eBike is ridable if you don't expect it to ride like a motorcycle. What you will need to be concerned about since you ordered from an internet only eBike company, is how good your electrical troubleshooting skills are. Your only link to technical help will be here and on a telephone. That is the leap that so many underestimate. I've read thousands of posts on forums that the eBike owner doesn't even own a multimeter. They ask about all the electrical components and all they really know is that it doesn't go. That is where you should be doing your research.

I have a Fluke for use at home, attended an almost 700 hour USAF Aircraft Electrical System Tech School, and worked on USAF electrical systems for over 20 years. I can find my way around a multimeter & an oscilloscope. Also went through a several hundred hour USAF Pneudraulics & Hydraulic System Tech School. At point in time I was troubleshooting aircraft anti-skid electronics, and at another point I was rebuilding the brake systems. Hopefully I will not get too deep down the rabbit hole when I start looking at hydraulic brake upgrade, LOL.

You are absolutely correct, I was over analyzing it. I spent the first 10 years of my second career maintaining online process analyzers (Gas Chromatography, Laser, IR, UV, etc.), where I dealt with firmware & software upgrades a lot. Now I'm more a network communication protocol (relating to analytical equipment) & data person tracking Mean Time to Failure, Statistical Quality Control data on validation data comparing percent deviation between validation result to reference gas, etc.

This short thread has defiantly let me know my wife's soon to be received Mini Step-Thru does not need to be upgraded over motor abuse fears.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

 

[johnny333]

I would try getting her to use pass 5. All she has to do is pull the up arrow button. I use 3 most of the time. I live in Florida is not to many hills and get 29 miles out of one battery. Good luck my daughter ran into the back of me when she was 10(46 now) when I was teaching her to ride. Gears I pu in the middle range and locked it there.
Johnny

 

[tripntx]

I would try getting her to use pass 5. All she has to do is pull the up arrow button. I use 3 most of the time. I live in Florida is not to many hills and get 29 miles out of one battery. Good luck my daughter ran into the back of me when she was 10(46 now) when I was teaching her to ride. Gears I pu in the middle range and locked it there.
Johnny

I have decided not to worry about her Mini. I feel confident PAS setting 5 is more than enough for her.

My Rad Rover will be modded over time, LOL.

 

[tripntx]

According to FedEx, our new Rad's made it to Ft Worth yesterday. We should have them in a couple of days!!!

 

[MikeDD]

As the owner of a Mini, I recommend you start riding with PAS 1. The geometry of the Mini is not like a regular bike, it does take some getting used to. If you start from a dead stop in PAS 5, you had better be pointing straight when you touch the throttle. I very seldom get above PAS 3 unless the hill is very steep and I am tired. PAS 1 or 2 will scoot you across most intersections.

 

[tripntx]

As the owner of a Mini, I recommend you start riding with PAS 1. The geometry of the Mini is not like a regular bike, it does take some getting used to. If you start from a dead stop in PAS 5, you had better be pointing straight when you touch the throttle. I very seldom get above PAS 3 unless the hill is very steep and I am tired. PAS 1 or 2 will scoot you across most intersections.

Good to know, thank you.

 

[tripntx]

Mini & Rover were delivered today. Wife and I rode approx 5 miles after assembly. She said her Mini doe NOT need any more power.

 

[tripntx]

One box was beat up pretty bad, the other was fine. Bicycles were perfect. No damage, they went together without issue.

 

[tripntx]

Wife & I have enjoyed riding our bikes daily since we received them four days ago. We can confirm what others in this thread have said relating to power, we tend to ride with PAS set to 2 or 3 most of the time.

These bikes are a lot of fun to ride!

Lexie, my 3.5 yr old 80 pound American Bulldog likes to run & trot beside me when I ride. I had been using my SOMA Smoothie road bike to run Lexie around the block daily. The Rover works so much better, because I feel more secure holding her leash than I did on Smoothie. Tugs from Lexie's leash would cause Smoothie to move, while the Rover isn't fazed by same tug. I set PAS to 1, gear to 4, and Lexie runs beside me at 9.5 mph. The Rover weight helps, it weighs 3 times as much as the Smoothie, and possibly the gyroscopic effect from the wider & heavier tires could be a contributing factor in the stability.

This morning I rode the Rover to pick up breakfast taco's for breakfast. It does really well getting from point A to B, and back to A. Gear setting 7, PAS to 5, and was able to maintain 24.5 MPH both directions without breaking a sweat.

The Rover is so much fun to ride, and my wife says the same thing about her Mini Step.

 

[johnny333]

For more power and speed the battery is going to be in the 1,000.00 US dollar range. Speed = more money. My first Miata had about 2,000.00+ in speed parts and just got me more tickets. The cops in Florida don't like you going 130+.
Johnnys
Ps you go through more parts and up keep too