Undertaking legal actions against Watt Wagons

[Mike_V]

Your long and "Failed transaction" is still in process as explained again in detail above
(... Just wait for dwindling >$0.02 increment. )

 

[pushkar]

I have posted on here multiple times that if anyone has any reason to think I am lying to please inform me so that I can delete it. I am in no way trying to slander anyone. If the truth is uncomfortable that doesn’t make it slander.

Don’t tell me to STFU. I had an 18 month failed transaction with this company. I have as much right to post in a suing the company thread as you do. Maybe even more so. At least I have insight on why this is going down, do you?

I just want to highlight that the "18 month failed transaction" part is not right .
1. You made a deposit, not a full payment like the other founders.
2. You chose to get parts for your initial deposit
2. The parts were delivered to you now close to a year ago

No founder one owes you anything, but you are welcome to carry on your bandwagoning.

Trust me, I loose all interest in this company when the remaining founders get their money back.

Sure! We believe you.

 

[TomD]

Give me a break. Founders signed up for an awesome deal. There was minimal profit margin and things didn't go as planned. This was NOT a typical purchase. There were risks. If you didn't want the risks you coud opt to pay a small deposit and pay more later. Things didn't go as planned. Some of that is pushkar's fault. But it's all water under the bridge at this point. Enough with whining and should have could have would have! End of day there wasn't much margin for things to go bad and they did. The money was used to purchase parts up front and invest in frames he's still waiting for the gates refund (going on 6 months). If he is lying about that, that's one thing, but what else do some of you expect him to do? He responded to the demand letters in the founder forum with a screen print of the latest communication with gates indicating the check had been issued and requested to give him until the end of the month. He's acting responsibly to pay founders back while protecting other customers.

 

[TomD]

Sure! We believe you.

I don't.

 

[Zachdds]

I just want to highlight that the "18 month failed transaction" part is not right .

1. You made a deposit, not a full payment like the other founders.
2. You chose to get parts for your initial deposit
2. The parts were delivered to you now close to a year ago

No founder one owes you anything, but you are welcome to carry on your bandwagoning.


Sure! We believe you.

i fixed that for you. It is closing in on our 1 year break up. 7/16 to be exact.

Not sure what you mean by the founders owing me nothing. I am not asking for anything. Actually that is not true. I am asking you, they have literally sent you certified letters, emails, sometimes texts, why haven’t you just picked up the phone and called them. There are only 7 of them. We are not talking about a trivial sum. Each and everyone of them would get off your back if you would reach out explain what the hell is going on and ask them for the extension. Instead they post 15 message on the founders forum about an update. They are concerned and you literally fly in every month or so with a screen shot. There was no deal made on the refund. A deal would imply that there was some kind of a choice in the matter. Some kind of agreement. You never asked anyone to waive their rights to a prompt refund. You just told them that you had waived their rights and even that deal expired in the middle of Feb. A business no matter small or big, Amazon or watts wagon, is obligated to provide a prompt refund within 30 days after the ship date comes and goes.


My word, you pay them off, I am out of here. I have attempted to make no disparaging comments about your company with the exception of how the founders have been treated.

Tom, you must have had less trust in them then I did. I did expect them to at least meet their worst case scenarios on the timelines. Up until that point watts wagon had been batting 1000 on everything I could find out about them. I personally elected to go with the deposit not due to my lack of faith in the company but rather covid had just hit and I had to close my dental office. At that time we had no idea when it was going to reopen. Cash was king. You asked why I post about it I told you. Didn’t ask you to agree with me. What makes the world go round.

 

[TomD]

It's rare that see the "good" feedback highlighted here. Just wanted to share some follow up with a recent purchaser that I had referred to WW. I actually encoraged them to go with a Luna X2, but they wanted the Hydra. My perspective is that WW is trying to do the right thing., they have just been snakebit by bad luck. You don't see many companies behave like this when money is tight...

Steve:
Hey Tom. Thanks for your help yesterday. It's really scary because this is a huge purchase for me but I bit the bullet and bought the small ready to ship Hydra eBike. I spoke to Amit and told him that you talked to Pushkar about me yesterday. Amit then gave me the discount. Shipping and taxes are a killer though! Of course I asked him to waive those for me and he couldn't. They have to send me the new programing cable later when they arrive at their place. So now the waiting for it to ship and arrive next week starts.

Me:
Congrats!

Steve:
Thanks for everything!

Me:
Just following up. Has your bike shipped yet? I really hope they don't jerk you around in that regard. Given their cash flow issues I just don't want you to get burned, just in case something goes south!

Steve:
I have a lot to tell you. On the phone now. May a msg you in a few mins?

Me:
Sure, no rush

Steve:
So here is what happened . . .

I got the bike on Friday and put together over the weekend and discovered that it was a lot taller than they described in the specs. The stand over hight was 3 inches higher than their specs revealed.

Me:
Ugh! Did they send a medium?

Steve:
I contacted them to see if they had sent me the wrong size bike. They were very helpful and very very responsive. They had me take a few measurements and send them pictures to ensure that the frame was the right size. It turns out they had to models of small frames the older model was bigger than the current small frame and that's when he came up with the 25 inkstand over

Me:
good grief, so you need to send back? or will it work?

Steve:
After the measurements were taken and analyze everything it turns out I do have the latest small and we were brainstorming together to figure out why it was so tall. Then I mentioned that the fork look like it was a pretty tall to me and I lightbulb went up in their heads and they said to send a picture of the fork and I did and it turned out that it was 180 mm fork. So that's why the bike looks and is so tall. They said they would send out 160 mm fork and pay or I should say reimburse me for the cost of having a bike shop though it for me

Me:
phew, well at least you have a solution

Steve:
Actually I am totally impressed with their customer service they went above and beyond to make it all right and in reality they did not have to offer a replacement fork but they said they would do it and pay for shipping both ways for when I returned the fourth I take off the bike.

Me:
Good to hear. They're really trying, they have just been blindsided at every corner lately, and getting some really bad feedback on the forums from screw ups.. But i really think they are good folks, just bad luck.

Steve:
Before we figured out that it was a fork, they offered to send me another by if it turned out that the one they sent me was the wrong size. I have not been on the bike on a real ride yet. I was not sure if that would mess up the return if needed. I figured they might want bike in as new condition is possible. I rode my road bike today and tomorrow I can't ride but my first real ride on that bike will be Friday I'm looking forward to it. I did ride it around the block and it seems like that Hydra is a rocket on wheels!

They are sending out that programming cable to everybody once they get them in stock in a couple of weeks. I am looking forward to that so I can customize all of the parameters in that motor to fit me perfectly.

I am happy to sing their praises!

 

[TomD]

My word, you pay them off, I am out of here. I have attempted to make no disparaging comments about your company with the exception of how the founders have been treated.

Tom, you must have had less trust in them then I did.

Oh really? I'll call BS on that. All anyone has to do to validate is click on your posting history. Plenty of threads that have nothing to do with founder refunds where all you do is stir the pot.

And maybe that was a typo but obviously I have more trust as I'm still opting to wait for the bike. Latest renders I saw looked really good!

 

[mschwett]

I have no dog in this fight, but I’m genuinely curious - what kind of business that assembles and sells $,$$$ products, presumably in batches of more than a few at a time, can’t refund $21,000 to customers?

if it came down to i‘d just write that check myself to avoid the massive ill will that’ll cost far more than $21k in profits in the long run,

we buy stuff from small/specialty manufacturers all the time. if they didn’t order the materials/components until the order was made/paid for the for product, it would take forever to get anything!

 

[TomD]

What makes you think they haven't already done that? It's a very small company that has made some big investments. They already injected considerable personal finances to start the company, and more to keep things going, it's not so easy just to keep going to the well. $21K is just the residual owed. I believe they've aready paid back more than that to founders. The deal was founders would be repaid as inventory was refunded. Their best option to keep the company going is to be prudent with very limited cash flow. Any additional money they inject would likely be needed for other purposes.

 

[RMK!]

I have no dog in this fight, but I’m genuinely curious - what kind of business that assembles and sells $,$$$ products, presumably in batches of more than a few at a time, can’t refund $21,000 to customers?

if it came down to i‘d just write that check myself to avoid the massive ill will that’ll cost far more than $21k in profits in the long run,

we buy stuff from small/specialty manufacturers all the time. if they didn’t order the materials/components until the order was made/paid for the for product, it would take forever to get anything!

WW has always been a cult type of business with followers that remind me of Scientologists. They were the boutique brand at a top end price of a low end (mostly branded ebikes from China) market. The donors for this "Super Bike" were I assume the most loyal WW customers and for the company's principle to treat those loyalists so badly with name calling and character assassination demonstrates a lack of business acumen (common sense) and professionalism. Threatening bankruptcy as a means of quieting frustrated unhappy customers over a $21K debt is just nonsensical.

I feel like a rubbernecker at an accident site and will move on as the WW defenders have their knives out and I don't wish to engage.

 

[mschwett]

…Threatening bankruptcy as a means of quieting frustrated unhappy customers over a $21K debt is just nonsensical.

right, that’s another way to say what i was trying to say. i’ll stop rubbernecking now.

 

[TomD]

WW has always been a cult type of business with followers that remind me of Scientologists. They were the boutique brand at a top end price of a low end (mostly branded ebikes from China) market. The donors for this "Super Bike" were I assume the most loyal WW customers and for the company's principle to treat those loyalists so badly with name calling and character assassination demonstrates a lack of business acumen (common sense) and professionalism. Threatening bankruptcy as a means of quieting frustrated unhappy customers over a $21K debt is just nonsensical.

I feel like a rubbernecker at an accident site and will move on as the WW defenders have their knives out and I don't wish to engage.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Speaking of which how's that Sturmey Archer hub working out for you on that POS you bought from China?

 

[rich c]

What makes you think they haven't already done that? It's a very small company that has made some big investments. They already injected considerable personal finances to start the company, and more to keep things going, it's not so easy just to keep going to the well. $21K is just the residual owed. I believe they've aready paid back more than that to founders. The deal was founders would be repaid as inventory was refunded. Their best option to keep the company going is to be prudent with very limited cash flow. Any additional money they inject would likely be needed for other purposes.

You've had a look at their accounting books and any possible initial investor statements? Sharing just some rough numbers would help relieve the speculations here.

 

[greeno]

"Speaking of which how's that Sturmy Archer hub working out for you on that POS you bought from China?" Nice, that the way to stay classy.

I glad Mr. P. has responded in this thread and gave his side of the story, there's always two sides but that being said... Probably a little late to mitigate any damage to WW's reputation. Brother if you have your hands full with running the business as Im sure you do you need to hire someone to just RESPOND to people, good or bad either on your own website or this one.
I think the only reason any negative comments get posted on this site is because they weren't addressed on your own WW website and in these days of uncertainty people fear the worst and want some sort of confirmation.
Another thing I noticed was when anyone stated having an issue with WW and they posted up about their experience it seemed to be worded in a civil way most of the time. But then you would get the detractors with a corresponding opinion that was usually not too civil. It's like they take as a personal slam on their decision to support the business. Lighten up Francis.

I have had numerous business dealings with various companies, vendors etc. over the last 15 years and have rarely seen this level of "lack of communication" from a company.
That 21k looks like it's going to cost this company more than that, I would of ordered 21 less frames somewhere from an order and payed those customers off just to still the waters a bit. If a little over 20k is make or break for a company then that's another issue, and not in a good sense.

My experience back in Sept. of 2020 was to just order a current frame he carried at the time and upgraded motor after speaking to Pushkar on the phone.

9-03-2020 Placed original order.
9-10-2020 Recieved order, shipment and tracking info. Estimated delivery 9-14-2020.
9-14-2020 Inquire with UPS about tracking # status. They state no movement from when original # was assigned.
9-14-2020 Sent e-mail to WW about status. No response from WW.
9-16-2020 Sent another e-mail inquiry to WW telling them a shipping label was made but no item dropped off yet to ship. No response from WW.
9-17-2020 UPS now shows package dropped off and in system to track. No response from WW.
9-24-2020 Order is delivered.

I got a sense of lack of customer service priority from the start. First Impressions are usually a pretty good indicator on things to come later. Not always if the company or business addresses any negative issues at the start but if they let it go for any length of time their are usually repercussions.

About 6-7 mos later I had an issue with a lower rear pivot and so I e-mailed WW for any assistance they could provide since I was led to believe I had a 1 yr warranty on items purchased. I was told to contact the manufacturer in Germany for any issues I had. Not that they would inquire on my behalf to see if anything could be rectified, but basically that I was on my own. So I ended up fixing the problem myself.
Believe me when I say this I am all about working, adjusting, or fixing any item or equipment I own I am very hands on and yes I could of just fixed the issue without contacting WW but I wanted to see how they would respond hoping that my initial impression of them wasn't justified. In my case it was.

Being out here on the west coast I think could of been great for future WW business but after my experience and a friend who I ride with weekly having about the same dealings with the company when he ordered his frame and motor a bit after I recieved mine in all good conscious anyone that asked me where I got my ride I would never mention WW by name in the conversation. Knowing that a recommendation by me was me putting my word and rep on the line if someone else had a negative experience and I wasn't comfortable doing that.

First rule in any business is be true to your objectives.
Customers are the lifeblood of any forward growth path and COMMUNICATION with said customers is key to that objective.

I had a business for a number of years and any "difficult" customers got my MOST attention and it always paid off. You can't ignore or not respond to people and be successful, no way no how. Passing on any unfortunate or "bad" news is always unpleasant but required to accomplish any task.

The ONLY way an issue gets resolved is by BOTH party's communicating with each other then there's no reason to hang out any "dirty laundry" for others to view so to speak.

Sorry for the long winded article I just wrote.

PS: I thought that when someone "Unsubscribed" they were done commenting on the issue not chiming in again and again. Funny.

Let er rip.

 

[Angela M.]

Hey everyone! There have been multiple reports regarding this thread so I feel it's appropriate to comment here. I understand there these types of posts upset members. Some of you are passionate about either the brand itself, the member associated with the brand, or even the OP. When there is a conflict you want to help protect. We value transparency here on EBR. No business goes without dealing with conflict. That's an unfortunate issue with having a business. We welcome and urge reps from manufacturers and re-sellers to become a member of EBR to not only engage with their customers but also handle issues as necessary. There is the story from the OP and the story from the manufacturer. If either side is reporting misinformation the other party is welcome to report the facts. All other members not involved can then form their opinion of the truth. This can, and needs to be done, without the use of namecalling and belittling one another. Nobody knows the truth beyond the two parties involved, nor do I. We do not ban a member simply because another member disagrees with what they're saying. This is the internet. There are facts, lies, and opinions. I am here to protect EBR's values and try to ensure members follow the rules. Our rules do not indicate that someone cannot post about their experience, however, it does state that insults and name-calling will not be tolerated. Thanks for taking the time to read this and doing your best to understand and abide by our rules.

 

[onlineaddy]

Thank you for chiming in @Angela M. Appreciate you keeping an eye on the activities going on here and EBR at large. Appreciate all that you do.

 

[TomD]

You've had a look at their accounting books and any possible initial investor statements? Sharing just some rough numbers would help relieve the speculations here.

I asked Pushkar that question last month and sounded like they have been injecting substantial personal capital to continue Helios frame development and keep the lights on. The original amount owed founders requesting refunds was significantly more than $20K (that's just the residual remaining which should be covered by the Gates refund). Of course it's easy for me to say just throw another $20K of personal funds and pay off founders in advance of getting the Gates refund, but I haven't been running a start up for 3 years.

 

[TomD]

"Speaking of which how's that Sturmy Archer hub working out for you on that POS you bought from China?" Nice, that the way to stay classy.

I bring it up because his commentary of WW stems from a discussion a few years ago where I tried to warn him that hub couldn't handle the power of the Ultra. He couldn't handle the feedback. Here is the thread:

Test ride on a Bikonit MD1000 (Mid-Drive) and HD 750 (Hub-Drive)

Had the opportunity to test ride both of these at a somewhat local (50 mile drive) bike shop. It was the Bolton Ebikes shop in Grass Valley CA (check out his Youtube channel). They had "prototype" versions of the two mentioned in the Thread title. I went there planning on ordering the MD1000...

electricbikereview.com

That 21k looks like it's going to cost this company more than that, I would of ordered 21 less frames somewhere from an order and payed those customers off just to still the waters a bit. If a little over 20k is make or break for a company then that's another issue, and not in a good sense.

So you have a time machine that will go back 6 months and tell you Gates would delay a $20K refund going on 6 months, and then go further back in time to adjust a frame order to compensate for that? Heck, why not just time the stock market instead?

 

[Mike_V]

Thank you for chiming in @Angela M. Appreciate you keeping an eye on the activities going on here and EBR at large. Appreciate all that you do.

XOXO we'll wait for the slow wheel of Justice and summary bureaucractic dismissal.

 

[greeno]

Mr T a Sturmy archer 3 spd SXRK3 hub will do just fine with an G510 ( Ultra ) motor especially with the Archon x1 toned down perimeters on performance which seems like alot of guys prefer as opposed to the full power/torque/response available with the proprietary programming usb cable.
I use to run that hub with the old BBSHD which was alot less refined as far as programming is concerned and by not overloading the gearing it worked fine.

What time machine are you referring to the one from Back to the Future? Loved that show. Perfect example of a detractor statement with a hint of venom.
What I meant was if you can't pull 20k out of somewhere to bail yourself out your operating within to tight of restrictions.

Quick story, I use to work for a successful small company that grew way to quick and suffered from lack of supervision and developed poor work practices which caused me to go out on my own. Before I left I sat down with the two individual owners and told them my reservations and what shortcomings of their company I felt were coming if they continued on the present course if they didn't correct the issues at hand. They thanked me for expressing my opinion but that they had a handle on everything and wished me luck out in the real world....... One year later they went bankrupt and owed millions of dollars to vendors who Im sure never got paid.

When I went on my own I started slow and built up gradually, kinda like a pyramid, establish a strong base to support the rest.
Over the years I did alot of work for GC's that made collecting progress payments hard to collect so when I bid on jobs of say over a mil I would already have that amount of $ in a money market account ( back then getting 5% ) to fully fund the job and wasn't at the mercy of someone else controlling my production. I religiously paid all my financial obligations to my employees and vendors when they were due.
I would always eventually get paid maybe 3-6 mos down the road. But by then I was off on the next project.

You have to be proactive not reactive when you run a business if you want to come out on the right side of things.
Covid has caused alot of problems to be sure but not overreaching your projected growth and by not going too big, too soon has consequences.

Sorry OP for hijacking your thread I wish you the best.