UK petition to change the law to allow >250W

[Johnny]

In fact, these provide up to 520-560 W peak power when necessary but these meet the 250 W nominal criterion.

And I am not sure how this fits the law.

Do you know how long can the peak be sustained to still be legal ?

 

[pmcdonald]

I really wonder why so many bring up safety when riding at a speed faster than 25kph (I'm sure there is no data supporting significantly higher accident rates of bikers that exceed that speed because most bikers only ride at faster speeds when they are confident the conditions are safe). I'm sure as a 10 year old kid I was riding faster than 25kph on my banana seat Schwinn, but hey if those in the EU don't feel safe going faster I guess that is their comfort zone. I think if you live in the US and have say a 20 mile commute each way that time saved by being able to commute at higher speeds really matters (everything is a bit slower paced in Europe).

I suspect there's not a lot of data on injury at speeds approaching those of a car because not many riders do them. If you're regularly riding at close to legal road limits I'd make the case a motorcycle or scooter is the more appropriate form of transport - at least that way you're required to do rider training and consider suitable safety equipment. Plus other vehicles may do a (marginally) better job of anticipating your presence.

I'd personally feel very comfortable commuting along at 32 km/h and I feel our 25 km/h limits are just a little too restricting given local conditions. As always, you ride to the conditions. I slow down to 15-20km/h whenever passing pedestrians. I see plenty of non-powered riders blast past at unsafe speeds so you can't regulate common decency.

I think there's two arguments going on here:
* nominal 250W limits are ridiculous (which Stefan and I would argue strongly against)
* that the 25 km/h limit should be raised (which I personally agree with)

 

[pmcdonald]

And I am not sure how this fits the law.

Do you know how long can the peak be sustained to still be legal ?

Here in Australia it is averaged over an hour, so you can do 500w sustained up hills or whatever so long as the output doesn't exceed 250W over an hour. Goodness knows how a motor regulates this. I've done some pretty aggressively hilly rides locally and my motor stat's report an average of about 115W over the hour, so you'd be surprised how much oomph 250W will give you.

 

[Johnny]

Here in Australia it is averaged over an hour, so you can do 500w sustained up hills or whatever so long as the output doesn't exceed 250W over an hour. Goodness knows how a motor regulates this. I've done some pretty aggressively hilly rides locally and my motor stat's report an average of about 115W over the hour, so you'd be surprised how much oomph 250W will give you.

That is a clean definition but very hard to enforce and I wonder if the motor actually regulates this.

On the other hand I have a good idea on how much 250w is and I wouldn't call it much. I am also doing some serious climbs where I push around 300-400W myself at times and easily cap the motor. I also clearly see/feel the motor decreasing the output after a brief peak period but still I am not sure if it is actually bringing the power below 250W to even out the average.

 

[waltermoe]

Signed and sent.
If allowed driving faster it is everyone own personal choice to do so. The ones Against the petition can then drive slower.

Let me tell you that on another example -
When I was stationed in Germany I had the pleasure to drive on their unlimited motorways.

Did the Germans died out because of that freedom ? Nope, their road fatalities is about the same as UK and Scandinavia, France, BENELUX and southern countries have way higher fatality rates even they have speed limits. And most fatalities are not due to high speed, but due to city collisions and alcohol!

Do they use better cars or better roads? Nope, just the same as here

So what is the secret? None really, what I observed closely, most drivers rather drive conservative and decent with limited speed and only a few uses the given power to "speed".

The same would probably apply to E-bikes which could go faster, some choose to use the full speed, but most will just moderately cruise along with 20 mph or even less.

But of course, we can accept the given situation as it was given to us by the EU.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The same Germans limited the e-bikes.

 

[TS25]

The same Germans limited the e-bikes.

No, they didn't, it's EU-law.

And E-bikes are divided into:
treated like bicycles (max. 25 km/h) vs treated like a moped (max 45 km/h).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No, they didn't, it's EU-law.

And E-bikes are divided into:
treated like bicycles (max. 25 km/h) vs treated like a moped (max 45 km/h).

That's right. Funny enough road principles for cars are so different in different EU countries, isn't it. And... The 25 km/h limit would not pass without the consent of Germany.

 

[Fr0d0]

European countries are free to make their own laws AFAIK although I would imagine that the EU would want you to increase not decrease the limits. Also Germany would take advice from the cycling nations like the Netherlands.. and what would they care - 250W is ok with no hills

 

[TS25]

... the cycling nations like the Netherlands ...

... where you'd look funny wearing a cycling helmet as it's not common there.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

250W is ok with no hills

I did 85 km with 1500 m elevation gain and maximum grade 12% last weekend with a 250 W (nominal) motor e-bike (non-MTB). We've been overtaking roadies uphill.
So, is 250 W too little? "Perhaps for you!" as a jolly Polish meme reads

 

[Fr0d0]

1500m? What was that a bump in the road?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Frodo. Show me records of your rides.

 

[Captain Slow]

It's interesting that the title of this thread is about raising motor power above 250 watts yet when I saw it I instinctively thought about the speed limit being 25 km/hr. in the UK and Europe. Must be something sub-conscious there.

In any event I'll add my 2 cents here. Do I think the speed limit of 25 km/hr. is too low? Absolutely, why even bother with the weight and cost of a motor is you're going to limit it to 25 km/hr. I'm in Canada and our limit of 32 km/hr. is somewhat tolerable. Now, I don't know if 45 km/hr. is necessary as they have in the US. I think if we had a limit of 38 to 40 km/hr. that I would feel that is fast enough. If you want to go faster than that then just use a lightweight ebike and pedal yourself.

Now as for the amount of allowable power for an ebike. Well that's a complicated issue because so many motors labelled as 250 watts actually put out far more than that. So if someone says I have a 250 watt motor and it's more than enough, it could be because the motor is actually putting out far more than 250 watts.

Similar to RandallS I am a Canadian and I had a Bionx system in the past. It was rated at 250 watts and I thought the motor was pathetic. It was a direct drive hub motor that weighed a ton and riding up the hill/mountain just 1 km from my house you could smell the motor heat riding up roughly a 7% grade that was about a 400 meter elevation gain. It did not handle the hill well at all. I recall thinking at the time that 250 watts wasn't nearly enough ................... But as I learned more about ebikes and motors that might not have been the case. I will say that Bionx system sucked beyond belief and I'm not surprised the company went out of business.

Anyhow, my next electric bike was a Juiced CCS and with a 650 watt geared hub motor, holy cow can that thing motor up hills. Big and powerful, it's way more power than I would ever need unless maybe I had a cargo bike and was carrying 100 lb. loads up hills.

My next electric bike was a Creo and it has a small 240 watt motor, but it's a mid-drive and the same hill that brought the Bionx to its' knees aren't a problem for this motor. I can easily ride up in the middle power setting and go quite fast. Put it in turbo and I'm easily passing very fast road racers on the way up. Even the middle setting I'm passing all but the fastest riders and I'm guessing in that setting I'm probably using about 150 watts or so.

So I've had bikes where 250 watts was completely inadequate, but also now own a 240 watt bike where I never feel the need for more power. I think one of the issues is that there's no standard test for power ratings so one manufacturers 250 watt motor could be twice as powerful as another manufacturers. Given there's no standard test/rating for power I'd say arbitrarily setting a limit on power is pointless. I mean if the law stayed at 250 watts, well how many motors out there are officially rated at 250 watts but are more powerful than that?

I think limiting the speed makes more sense and maybe rather than limiting motor power, maybe say motors above a certain weight are considered motorized vehicles or mopeds, etc ....... But that reflects my bias. For me I want an ebike to ride like a conventional bicycle and provide sharp handling, good agility, etc ..... Because of that I'm not a fan of big, heavy ebikes unless they're something like a cargo bike.

 

[john peck]

Yet, let me ask you another question: Don't the Welsh ride up their hills on unassisted bikes?

Being 71, having had 2 severed tendons in one leg & 2 steel rods in the other, I tend
to walk unassisted bikes up hills.....rather slowly. Fractured vertibra, lumbar, thorasic, & cervical
don´t simplfy the matter. Give me 500 watts, or a jeep.

 

[Fr0d0]

Give me 500 watts, or a jeep.

Priceless

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Give me 500 watts, or a jeep.

John, what mid-drive motor e-bike have you ridden? Specialized 1.3 motor delivers 550 W peak power and SyncDrive Pro can deliver up to 520 W. There are hardly any hills that cannot be easily ridden with these motors. Moreover, EU law allows up to 4 kW provided you have a driving license (and want to take some formalities). I expect you DO have a driving license

All this law change talk is just silly. The problem is EU PAS speed limit not the motor power.

 

[john peck]

I expect you DO have a driving license

I´m currently on a 500w hub motor, but have a 1000w spare. The German 500w is more than adequate; it´ś my body
thatś falling apart. But, for real range I built a modified gas bike that gets 60 miles to a liter on the primary tank, carries
another 3 liter plastic gerry can with a 40cc engine. & I don´t have to pedal if I don´t feel like it. 2.2 hp on the cleanest
2 stroke ever made, High quality Japanese no longer available because it can no longer be made at a profit
does 35 mph without even getting hot to the touch. Not especially legal. Yes I have a driver´s license,
& I´ve driven almost 300 miles since January.

 

[waltermoe]

I may be incorrect, but I don't see Stafan objecting to a change in the law, but I think he is expressing his opinion that that change is probably unnecessary.

But having said that, it's your country and if you and others feel it is needed, then petition away.

My opinion is that the laws/regulations around ebikes are typically just guidelines (as you can import a 1000W Bafang Ultra and install it) and in general, if the existing rules about speeds on paths would be enforced on speed demons of any type, then the regulations on maximum wattage become moot.

The speed limits on our roads apply the same to a VW Polo as to a Ferrari.
Why would there be a need for a law that doesn't allow you to have more Horsepower or torque?

"Why would there be a need for a law that doesn't allow you to have more Horsepower or torque?"

Because the Pedelecs are enjoying the status of registration and insurance free (among other). But they want to limit that somewhat to what humans can do with a bicycle. So 250 Watt is about the power a well trained person can "power" to his pedals. That makes sense.
The other is that under circumstances one can ride 20 to 25 mph (ca. 40 km/h) easy as well. And that's all the petition is asking for, to allow the maximum power of 250 Watt to be used and not castrate the engines at a certain "assumed" maximum speed. Currently, the engine support switch of at 16 mph (or suppose to) and one is left alone pedaling all of a sudden.
Which feels kinda weird when one is riding around in that speed sector... engine on, engine off, engine on, engine off.

 

[waltermoe]

Now, an average cyclist can provide 100 W of power to the bike cranks. Add 250 W to it, and you are a competing cyclist. The trouble with the hub-drive is it is providing constant assistance and does not cooperate with the rider by multiplying the crank torque via drive-train as the mid-motor does. Hence the desire of the hub-drive e-bike rider to increase the motor power, to be effectively ridden up the hill as if it were an e-motorcycle.

Yet, I also own a 250 W hub-drive e-bike and can ride uphill, only in low gears and slowly.

Powerful hub-drive motor requires a large battery. That makes the e-bike heavy, which makes ascending even harder... etc. Also, ascents "eat" the battery charge (directly depending on weight), so even larger a battery, even heavier e-bike... and that goes into the loop.

Actually the bike i rented in Holland had a front wheel hub and a torque sensor in the pedal, so it did the multiplying thing. But the effect was rather horrible for me. Being used to push a lot of power when starting off, if not standing in the pedals, the engine accelerated full power (250 Watt is a lot actually) and whoosh I was in the middle of the intersection...where I did not wanted to be at that moment. But of course one would get used to that over time. Or maybe it was just a shitty sensor.