UK petition to change the law to allow >250W

[Fr0d0]

I think the change is very necessary, and so do all of my friends. I'm a bit miffed that on an e-bike forum there should be an objection to what I think is a completely reasonable request. I'm annoyed that this is putting people off signing the petition.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My opinion is that the laws/regulations around ebikes are typically just guidelines (as you can import a 1000W Bafang Ultra and install it) and in general, if the existing rules about speeds on paths would be enforced on speed demons of any type, then the regulations on maximum wattage become moot.

That might be true in North America Randy but an European prosecutor might have different opinion if the illegal rider killed someone. There was a recent case of that kind in France, and that specific country defined a fine of EUR 30,000 for riding illegal ebikes.
Frodo has the right to petition. What is worrying me is that petition comes in parallel with another one to increase the speed restriction to the Canadian level. That petition seems far more important to me.

 

[Art Deco]

I think here's the crux of the matter - Hub vs Mid drive.

My experience with my 10 year old Hub driven bike (350 watt BionX) vs my new 250W Yamaha powered Giant, is like night and day. My memory is still reasonably good, and since I'm riding in generally the same areas still, I can categorically attest that my old bike with 100W more than my new bike NEVER EVER climbed as well.

Now, whether or not a newer, more modern Hub drive would climb better than my 10 year old one, I'd think it would be safe to say that yes it probably would. But I cannot imagine it powering up some of the hills I've gone up lately. To be fair, my new bike has the Giant Syncdrive PRO with 80 Nm is top tier, but their Sport motor at 70Nm sure climbed well when I test rode a different bike.

As always "I reserve the right o be wrong"!

However, having said all the above, not everyone has the budget to buy bikes with high end components (including motors).
To the OP, I hope you can find a bike that suits your purposes within your budget, and that common sense prevails on the regulatory side.

My $0.02

You were doing great right up to "that common sense prevails on the regulatory side". Maybe it's because I'm from the states.

 

[RandallS]

You were doing great right up to "that common sense prevails on the regulatory side". Maybe it's because I'm from the states.

I like to dream. We have a problem in Canada whereby they want to write new laws that are basically unenforceable instead of enforcement of the existing ones that are quite frankly, close enough for 99% of the situations. Apply the law as it's written and let the system do its job, instead of elected officials pandering to vocal special interest groups creating a regulatory situation where no one wants to make a wrong step due to the more complex multi jurisdictional mess we have.

Unfortunately for you guys south of the 49th, you have much bigger issues (sensibly stopping there).

 

[Art Deco]

I like to dream. We have a problem in Canada whereby they want to write new laws that are basically unenforceable instead of enforcement of the existing ones that are quite frankly, close enough for 99% of the situations. Apply the law as it's written and let the system do its job, instead of elected officials pandering to vocal special interest groups creating a regulatory situation where no one wants to make a wrong step due to the more complex multi jurisdictional mess we have.

Unfortunately for you guys south of the 49th, you have much bigger issues (sensibly stopping there).

I have mentioned before that Canadians seem pretty rational, the US and UK not so much...

 

[DaveMatthews]

I have mentioned before that Canadians seem pretty rational, the US and UK not so much...

I'm rational? Who knew?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Has anyone noticed that Europe with its "silly e-bike laws" rides far more ebikes than whole North America? It's been surprising me for a long time. Cannot guess the answer.

 

[J.R.]

Has anyone noticed that Europe with its "silly e-bike laws" rides far more ebikes than whole North America? It's been surprising me for a long time. Cannot guess the answer.

One of the biggest reasons is how far we need to commute to everywhere. I drove 120 miles round trip to work for many years. I didn't want to live where the best jobs were and I couldn't work where I wanted to live.

 

[Dewey]

This thread on the UK pedelecs forum describes the current system in the UK, as far as I understand it (am happy to be corrected):
Pedelec = 250w 25kmh/15.5mph;
L1e-A = 1,000w 25kmh/15.5mph;
L1e-B = 500w 45kmh/28mph;
L1e-B Moped = 4,500w 48kmh/30mph.
Pedelec is treated as a bicycle so no license/insurance required and can ride where pedal bikes are allowed, all other classes are motor vehicles that must stay on the road and require motorcyle/CBT driving license/insurance/number plate, only the L1e-B Moped Class can have a throttle. Stefan can correct us but I understand the EU has two classes, one is equivalent to the UK Pedelec and the UK L1e-B is the same as the EU speed-pedelec?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

This thread on the UK pedelecs forum describes the current system in the UK:
Pedelec = 250w 25kmh/15.5mph;
L1e-A = 1,000w 25kmh/15.5mph;
L1e-B = 500w 45kmh/28mph;
L1e-B Moped = 4,500w 48kmh/30mph.
Pedelec is treated as a bicycle so no license/insurance required and can ride where bikes are allowed, all other classes are motor vehicles that must stay on the road and require motorcyle/CBT driving license/insurance/number plate, only the L1e-B Moped Class can have a throttle. Stefan can correct us but I understand the EU has two classes, one is equivalent to the UK Pedelec and the UK L1e-B is the same as the EU speed-pedelec?

We have exactly the same law and the same classes. The only difference is an L1e-B rider in the UK has to wear a motorcycle helmet while a cycling helmet does in the rest of the EU.

Therefore, there is no need to change the law regarding the motor power. If a UK rider can manage the Certificate of Conformity for their L1e-B (and does other unpleasant formalities), they can ride a 4 kW S-Pedelec (as the German call it).

Interestingly, no respected L1e-B maker takes a risk of more than 250 W, even if up to 4 kW is allowed. There was some make/model with 500 W motor and even that ceased to be made.

The law was changed in 2018, among others requiring the STOP rear light. Specialized have addressed that in Vado 6.0 with TCD-W display. Also, the Polish law now requires either the AM driving license or the regular driving license. (I was not aware of that because I carry my driving license with me anyway).

The throttle: the law does not forbid that for L1e-B. Nobody offers a respected L1e-B with the throttle in Europe. That's not the Euro spirit of cycling.

 

[Dewey]

I drove 120 miles round trip to work for many years.

Shudder...25 years ago when I lived in the UK I drove a 90 mile/Two and a half hour round-trip commute each day for 3 years, never again.

 

[J.R.]

Shudder...25 years ago when I lived in the UK I drove a 90 mile/Two and a half hour round-trip commute each day for 3 years, never again.

It's tough! There are tougher things. When I got married in '85 I bought a house in the city near wife's family. I grew up rural, but I tried to do the best thing. Beautiful area and house. 9 years and never had one year without a crime perpetrated against us. Some serious. That's my never again. I eventually left entirely. Then I was able to do some bike commuting. Even that wasn't short at 34 miles r/t.

 

[Fr0d0]

Shudder...25 years ago when I lived in the UK I drove a 90 mile/Two and a half hour round-trip commute each day for 3 years, never again.

Lots of people still do. Crazy.

 

[Dewey]

Yeah, but I get JR's point. I grew up in a suburb walking distance from a town, the one year I lived in the countryside I had to drive 15 miles to buy a pint of milk, that too got old very quickly. JR I'm sorry you had what sounds like a rough time. I lived in London for a few years in shared house situations and felt I was living on borrowed time waiting for some bastard to break in and steal my computer or bike, thankfully I only had a wheel kicked in/bent one time when they couldn't break the lock.

 

[RandallS]

I have mentioned before that Canadians seem pretty rational, the US and UK not so much...

Less and less daily.
We have a new batch of TICs.
That's "Twits In Charge" BTW.
I don't want to take this discussion down a political rathole, so once again, I'll leave it there...

@Fr0d0 , I get your point(s), and wish you and your compatriots well in getting some sensible regulations.

Time to go for a ride...

 

[Ken M]

No, you wouldn't. Ask @RabH, he's Scottish.
My Vado 5.0 takes 14% inclines easily. My Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro takes 20% grades. What are you riding?

When you are commuting on an ebike you want to sustain a decent average speed of say 30-40kph and you can't do that up 14% inclines with a 250W drive system. Climbing a hill in a low gear at 10kph is not really effective when commuting which is probably what you think is capable...and it is OK when recreational mtn biking.

 

[Ken M]

We've tried 250W bikes and they don't do it. Probably cheaper than yours. 250W nominal is that 250W all told? I forget. I see the US 750W limit means just that - not 750W nominal with 1000w+ max.

Actually if you read HR127 the motor "rating" is specific to the motor being less than 750W which is ambiguous. You have to remember that law makers rarely have strong technical backgrounds so the wording provides a loophole that the motor can be rated at 749W (it does say motor of less than 750W so a lot of brands are stating something that is not compliant when they claim a motor of 750W but that's nit picky stuff). A motor can have a 749W rating but allow peak power to be much higher for non-continuous peak power.

I think this is why Bafang developed the Ultra mid drive system with higher than 749W peak specs.

 

[pmcdonald]

When you are commuting on an ebike you want to sustain a decent average speed of say 30-40kph and you can't do that up 14% inclines with a 250W drive system. Climbing a hill in a low gear at 10kph is not really effective when commuting which is probably what you think is capable...and it is OK when recreational mtn biking.

My 250W nominal ebike will zip up a 10 to 15 degree incline at our 25 km/h legal limit provided I can spin the pedals quick enough! And as Stefan has pointed out, that’s the standard in the eMtB world. You’re not going to blast up length, steep hills at 50 km/h but frankly is anyone needing to do that on their daily commute? The battery drain and safety considerations of that fizzle my mind. Each to their own though.

Good luck with the petition, UK riders. Australia basically just ported your legislation when it came time to sorting out our ebike laws, so we’re in the same boat. Given the distances we deal with and the relative lack of congestion on roads and pathways I’d love to see our limit upped to 32 km/h as well to bringing it into line with our Canadian and NZ Commonwealth compatriots.

 

[Ken M]

I may be incorrect, but I don't see Stafan objecting to a change in the law, but I think he is expressing his opinion that that change is probably unnecessary.

But having said that, it's your country and if you and others feel it is needed, then petition away.

My opinion is that the laws/regulations around ebikes are typically just guidelines (as you can import a 1000W Bafang Ultra and install it) and in general, if the existing rules about speeds on paths would be enforced on speed demons of any type, then the regulations on maximum wattage become moot.

The speed limits on our roads apply the same to a VW Polo as to a Ferrari.
Why would there be a need for a law that doesn't allow you to have more Horsepower or torque?

All your points are spot on. It makes no sense to apply the speed limit to the bike instead of the paths they are using (slower on shared pedestrian sidewalks and faster on road side lanes or shoulders). But and a big but, I think there are a lot of power that be that do not want too many people getting out of cars and actually commuting on ebikes so they have lobbied to keep ebikes specified at less than true transportation capable.

As an example look at GM's pathetic entry and quick exit from the market with essentially "last mile" ebikes. I question that catagory because no one should need an ebike to go that last mile ... just go buy a super light folding bike like a Brompton. GM was literally practicing defensive product development because bean counters in that corporate world have far too much decision power (there should be some business books about the negative impact this has had a many corporations that need to keep innovating and the bean counters hold that back because they don't even understand the concept of making a better product because it's not easy to assign a numerical value to it).

 

[Ken M]

My 250W nominal ebike will zip up a 10 to 15 degree incline at our 25 km/h legal limit provided I can spin the pedals quick enough! And as Stefan has pointed out, that’s the standard in the eMtB world. You’re not going to blast up length, steep hills at 50 km/h but frankly is anyone needing to do that on their daily commute? The battery drain and safety considerations of that fizzle my mind. Each to their own though.

Good luck with the petition, UK riders. Australia basically just ported your legislation when it came time to sorting out our ebike laws, so we’re in the same boat. Given the distances we deal with and the relative lack of congestion on roads and pathways I’d love to see our limit upped to 32 km/h as well to bringing it into line with our Canadian and NZ Commonwealth compatriots.

I really wonder why so many bring up safety when riding at a speed faster than 25kph (I'm sure there is no data supporting significantly higher accident rates of bikers that exceed that speed because most bikers only ride at faster speeds when they are confident the conditions are safe). I'm sure as a 10 year old kid I was riding faster than 25kph on my banana seat Schwinn, but hey if those in the EU don't feel safe going faster I guess that is their comfort zone. I think if you live in the US and have say a 20 mile commute each way that time saved by being able to commute at higher speeds really matters (everything is a bit slower paced in Europe).