Totally Modern EBike

[eDean]

Hi,

As a thought exercise, if you were designing a state of the art ebike from scratch what would you include? Her are some things I would like to see..

1. Uses smart phone as a native interface. This allows for third party interfaces for starters. Phone is color, smart, updates over time, and removable.
2. Open API to controller. Some sort of certification process for approved apps.
3. Mid drive to keep weight low and centered while providing the most leverage via gears. Probably replace the chain with something more in line with the level of force. Chains are ok for non powered bikes, but seem to be a weak spot on mid drive ebikes. Stronger gearing custom made for the forces of a mid drive.
4. Based on mileage, manages maintenance reminders. Tracks things like chains falling off and makes recommendations if too frequent. This can be done by sending data to a central server, the logic does not need to reside in the app itself.
5. Cellular connectivity with GPS in the bike.
6. Flat protection other than slime. It seem odd we are still dealing with flats in a world with nano technology.
7. Some degree of future proofing. Ability to accept next years battery for example. I think having an app based controller will allow software to be more flexible and support this a bit better?
8. Accommodation for extra battery and possibly bring a charger. This could be panniers but it could be something more integrated. Support for having two batteries for long distance touring.
9. Stability control to prevent wheel spin. Can be deactivated.
10. Automatic shifting.
11. Range first speed second mode that will limit parameters to guarantee a specified range is met.
12. Some degree of modularity with the drive system, allowing for future drives to be utilized.
13. Ability to pick the mode of effort detection, pedal ,torque or combination of the two.
14. Ability to create and or download custom maps of assistance to effort.
15. Awareness of rate of climb and decent and the ability to adjust assist based on them.
16. Configurable regeneration in a mid drive. Might require some new ideas to achieve.
17. Full suspension with the ability to fully lock out the rear and add panniers.
18. Cardio integration, assist based on target heart rate. Having app based controllers will allow for more sophisticated logic and integration options.
19. Ability to replace the handle bars with different styles. Seems to be a limitation on most ebikes. Drop bars would be nice on my Neo.
20. Attachment point for a water bottle cage. Come on, it is mentioned in every review on this site. How can this not be the current state of art?
21. Spokes that don't need adjusting. Something other than spokes perhaps. Seems to be a part of traditional bike design that does not translate all that well to ebikes.
22. High speed charging options.
23. Ability to lock the bike in place either using mechanical locks, software, or both.
24. Integrated lighting with the ability to swap out lights. Requires some sort of lighting standard that does not exist today.
25. Charge the battery using a car. Na, forget it.
26. Solar support. Ability to charge the battery as you bike from a general low non specific power source.
27. Multiple battery types for different conditions, small and light vs heavy and beefy.
28. Temperature factored into range calculations. Maybe battery chemesty specificly tuned to colder conditions.
29. Smart charging that manages your battery, think Tesla. Notifies you if the battery is decaying due to charging patterns.

What would you add or change?

 

[Ann M.]

Wow, @eDean, quite a list and there are a few things that I'd debate with you on the list, but tomorrow. Well thought out with a good understanding of how current & future technology could help. Some things like # 29 battery decay actually exist on some high end bikes now that utilize the Cycle Analyst V2 or V3 (check it out at ebikes.ca) and definitely YEAH! on #6, slime doesn't work well. Long debate on spokes, but the short of it is the quality of the ride--rigid mag rims don't flex well and provide a harder ride; motors can vibrate if not centered & anchored correctly. Seen that in the EScooter world where hub motors are mounted in a rigid wheel. And its more expensive to fix a non-spoked wheel when that inevitable pothole arrives to smack you around. More later; like your ideas, though

 

[George S.]

Great list. I agree with point 7 fully. We have batteries of all shapes and sizes with little or no standardisation. I'm not entirely convinced that we will find batteries for many of the current models in 5 years or so. This is particularly true for e-bikes that have purpose built frames, such as those sold by Stromer, BH, Specialized, and Eflow. An ordinary bike retrofitted with a kit seems to be much more future proof. Worst case, you will only need to replace the entire kit in 5 years. And that's only a remote possibility... I would like to see some form of written commitment from manufacturers with respect to future availability of batteries. Any thoughts?

The batteries are the most annoying area about ebikes. Even if you build a kit, the battery will be $300 or $500 dollars. So you end up with a $100 hub motor and a battery that costs many times more than that. Plus we pay 10x what Tesla pays, per kWh, per cell.

They went through this with cameras. Rather than standardizing, Canon, Sony, and Panasonic all moved to make batteries MORE proprietary, with chips. A fair question would be whether anyone will ever provide white box ebike batteries. There are reasonable numbers of some kinds of batteries (packs), but probably not enough. I have searched for a rebuilder for my pack, just in case it goes bad. No real luck. That's a business opportunity.

Basically, you have to match the voltage of whatever system you have, if you want to DIY a battery. So if you have a 36v pack now (that is pretty standardized), you can make any 36v pack work, as long as it is rated for current.

I was thinking about this, just as an exercise. I can go buy some Zippy (a name to trust?) LiPo battery packs, basically 18v and about 8AH. I need to get to my motor voltage, 36v, so 2 packs, and they cost maybe $80 each. Series connection is twisting two wires together. LiPo are current pit bulls, so no issues there. So I take off my dead or dying rear mount pack, and then all I need to do is find the two connections that every battery has, the pos and the neg terminals. My new Zippy pack (ask for it by name) can now be duct taped to the existing battery rack on my X3. I'm good to go? The other advantage is that people will be less likely to steal the bike, what with all that duct tape. Unfortunately, you need to use a different charger for the LiPos, so better to strap something on for convenience. Most battery packs include the charge circuits, so that is a pain if you toss the pack (in a responsible kind of way). Charging lithiums is a pain.

A lot of kits come with (Chinese) bottle batteries, and they are fairly standardized. If one of them goes bad, you buy another, and the basic size and shape might be workable for many years. Again, a 36v pack will be a 36v pack, even down the line with better batteries.

Basically, all the tech people say there will be much better and much cheaper batteries in 3 years. I have a half dozen articles I could post, but no one really cares. Down the road, if you can get a lighter and cheaper battery, there's probably some way to mount it if the frame is still in good shape and you like the drive system. We all may be fed up with what we have now, in 3 years.

Ebike batteries are just too expensive (Zippy is an RC battery). We should all make Elon Musk feel bad about sucking up all the cells for his cars, and ask him to provide some super-wholesale cells to the ebike industry. Really, it's unbelievable how much more we pay for the same basic cells.

 

[eDean]

Ebike batteries are just too expensive (Zippy is an RC battery). We should all make Elon Musk feel bad about sucking up all the cells for his cars, and ask him to provide some super-wholesale cells to the ebike industry. Really, it's unbelievable how much more we pay for the same basic cells.

We don't yet know the full story of the giga factory, already there are plans for home batteries. Perhaps production at such high volumes will bring prices down across the board. Tesla batteries are readily broken down, home batteries will be bigger with more cells. Imagine Tesla got into eBikes, what they could do.

My sense is that if it cost $50 to manufacture a bike battery for company A, by the it is sold to a customer it will be $500. Likewise if it cost $25 to manufacture the battery for company B, by the time it gets to the customer it will cost $600 because company B has better marketing. Is it possible that the price has little do with the retail cost? I'm not talking low end bikes but for the nice stuff and am just speculating, I don't have any hard facts to support my theory.

My little hope in my Bosch drive is that due to the horizontal market coverage there will be better support in the future for the system. Not that that had anything to do my decision.

 

[George S.]

[QUOTE="
Ebike batteries are just too expensive (Zippy is an RC battery). We should all make Elon Musk feel bad about sucking up all the cells for his cars, and ask him to provide some super-wholesale cells to the ebike industry. Really, it's unbelievable how much more we pay for the same basic cells."

We don't yet know the full story of the giga factory, already there are plans for home batteries. Perhaps production at such high volumes will bring prices down across the board. Tesla batteries are readily broken down, home batteries will be bigger with more cells. Imagine Tesla got into eBikes, what they could do.

My sense is that if it cost $50 to manufacture a bike battery for company A, by the it is sold to a customer it will be $500. Likewise if it cost $25 to manufacture the battery for company B, by the time it gets to the customer it will cost $600 because company B has better marketing. Is it possible that the price has little do with the retail cost? I'm not talking low end bikes but for the nice stuff and am just speculating, I don't have any hard facts to support my theory.

My little hope in my Bosch drive is that due to the horizontal market coverage there will be better support in the future for the system. Not that that had anything to do my decision.[/QUOTE]

The cost of the materials in a standard ebike cell is around 85 cents. As time goes by, with better automation and high volume, you get closer to that cost. A lot of builders go with the hobby LiPo cells, in packs for the RC market. If you buy a Haibike or something, you are more locked in to a pack, but there is a high probability they will support the bikes with replacement packs. It depends on which end of the market you are at. For a bike that costs $600, a $300 pack is another 50%. With more upscale models, a $300 pack is maybe 8% of the cost.

With solar panels getting so cheap, they need storage now, to make it work. I can't find anything better than the lithium options. So if people want big battery banks to make solar panels work (at night) they will drive volumes up, prices down.