Torque vs cadence sensor...

[McCorby]

I've ridden bikes with torque sensing and the engagement is sureal. If I was a mountain biker or serous road biker, I'd want a mid-drive with a torque sensor. But for my day-to-day commuting around town a cadence sensor is fine.

While I don’t disagree, don’t discount the advantages of a quality torque sensor based system for general riding on streets and bike paths. The thread below discusses some of the ”strategies“ that are required when riding a speed based cadence sensor only eBike. Such as people having to set the pas to 0 or only use the throttle when riding with others that are traveling slower than their pas 1 will allow. With the ”big four” Mid-drives, these “strategies“ are not needed. You pretty much ride them no differently than a non-powered bike.

Pedal Assist and Gear strategies

I purchased an E-Joe Epik SE in late August. I didn’t get to ride much when I first got it because of the poor air quality levels due to the fires in Northern California. It has a rear hub motor using a cadence sensor, with seven conventional gears, five pedal assist levels, and a throttle...

electricbikereview.com

 

[Sierratim]

Ok thanks I'm getting the picture. Now I do mountain bike in addition to ebiking so say I'm emtb and I'm looking to save my knees for when a mtb ride, what's the technique for expending very little energy but getting the optimal speeds required for a fast run with the torque sensor type?

A fast run while expending very little energy? Sounds like you'll want to consider a battery extender. I 'borrow' my wife's Vado battery when I do longer, more challenging rides.

 

[Lar]

Set it to the highest assist level and select the appropriate gear for your preferred pedal cadence and bike speed.

Sounds perfect..

 

[Lar]

The bike In interested in is probably six months out from availability so I appreciate the info in the mean time. Thanks all...

 

[Sierratim]

The bike In interested in is probably six months out from availability so I appreciate the info in the mean time. Thanks all...

Which bike are you considering?

 

[Lar]

Which bike are you considering?

It's a bafang m600 motor FS mountain bike.

 

[ElevenAD]

the actual motor also has a lot to do with it, not all motors are created the same whether they be torque or cadence,personally if i could only have one its torque because you can fine tune your PAS with your pedal pressure! if i set my cadence bike to PAS level 6 as long as i spin the cranks the motor gives me full level 6 power, if i set my torque bike to level 6 and just spin the cranks it will not give me full level 6 power, not even close, you need to apply some pedal pressure, pedal lightly you get less help, pedal harder you get the full level of PAS! climbing ill take a torque sensor! Racing around town and commuting cadence rocks!
,

 

[ElevenAD]

It's a bafang m600 motor FS mountain bike.

well if your getting one with a Luna controller no worries lol they are monsters!
check out the Hill Climb at 3:00, The Luna M600 climbs faster than the levo and he doesn't even pedal the M600.

these are $3800 and ship in November!

 

[Lar]

It has a torque sensor but no throttle though it may be able to have one added. One reason I posted this thread was it doesn't have a throttle and if it turns out it's not possible to add one I wanted to get an idea of what to expect. From what I've read it will work for me either with or without a throttle.

 

[AHicks]

Lar, based on my recent experience with the Ultra, you can set that motor up any way you like. The minimum and maximum pedal pressures required to engage the torque sensing is on you (customizable for each PAS level). Set it where you like. The amount of power available for each PAS level, same way. It's up to you. The amount of power available when the torque sensor first engages same thing. You want a soft start, or something that will give you more of a right now response? The Ultras have throttles, but you can run without if you like. That's just going to require you to be on top of your cadence and torque settings to a greater degree.

You ride the bike a bit to see what the factory settings are like (they're pretty aggressive for me) note the issues you'd like to change, then go for it, tuning each one as you like.

Regarding your knees, you can vary the effort required for each PAS level. Set the first couple up as knee friendly, then get progressively more aggressive - or any other way you see fit.

On that 600, I know it has many of these same adjustments. What I don't know is if you'll have access to them. They're supposed to be changing them over to a new/different programming language that may lock people out in the future. At that point you would not have control over the features I'm talking about here. -Al

 

[BarryS]

Ok thanks I'm getting the picture. Now I do mountain bike in addition to ebiking so say I'm emtb and I'm looking to save my knees for when a mtb ride, what's the technique for expending very little energy but getting the optimal speeds required for a fast run with the torque sensor type?

In simple not technical terms Torque with a Vado is 4 times you . But that's in Turbo mode . In Eco it's like 2x you Sport 3x you and turbo is for times you. YOU BEING YOUR CADENCE Cadence is the number of pedal revolutions per minute
I rarely and I mean almost never use anything but ECO . Unless I might have stopped and need to make up ground quick to catch the pack I am riding with . I have yet to encounter a hill I need more then eco for . I've climbed some steep ones . Of course I have climbed these same hills on regular bikes . Maybe that's why they seem so easy with an E-Bike without needing full juice.

One another note I don't live in a state with mountains . It's mainly flat . But the hills I encounter are cut thru the Sand dunes . So many are what I would call steep like 14 percent

PS: IT's Not What You Think: Before Buying an E-bike I was concerned that I'd be using Turbo to maintain what I was currently do on a Regular Bike ,just easier . If you are riding a Regular bike like me on 25-35 mile Trips . Getting and E-bike will feel like you're on Vacation . The first week I had mine I put 190 miles on in 3 Trips . I didn't even feel like I'd done much. Had I gone that far on a regular Bike in 3 days . I'd likely have died around 95 miles . Riding an e-bike is Big Time CHEATING . Butttttt It's a Blast . Sadly IMO unless you are continually exceeding 20MPH or More. You aren't getting a hell of a lot of excercise

 

[Lar]

Lar, based on my recent experience with the Ultra, you can set that motor up any way you like. The minimum and maximum pedal pressures required to engage the torque sensing is on you (customizable for each PAS level). Set it where you like. The amount of power available for each PAS level, same way. It's up to you. The amount of power available when the torque sensor first engages same thing. You want a soft start, or something that will give you more of a right now response? The Ultras have throttles, but you can run without if you like. That's just going to require you to be on top of your cadence and torque settings to a greater degree.

You ride the bike a bit to see what the factory settings are like (they're pretty aggressive for me) note the issues you'd like to change, then go for it, tuning each one as you like.

Regarding your knees, you can vary the effort required for each PAS level. Set the first couple up as knee friendly, then get progressively more aggressive - or any other way you see fit.

On that 600, I know it has many of these same adjustments. What I don't know is if you'll have access to them. They're supposed to be changing them over to a new/different programming language that may lock people out in the future. At that point you would not have control over the features I'm talking about here. -Al

Think you're right I'm looking at a pdf users manual for the BAFANG DPC240.CAN display/computer that comes with it and has no instructions for customizing the pas levels 0-6...

 

[Lar]

In simple not technical terms Torque with a Vado is 4 times you . But that's in Turbo mode . In Eco it's like 2x you Sport 3x you and turbo is for times you. YOU BEING YOUR CADENCE Cadence is the number of pedal revolutions per minute
I rarely and I mean almost never use anything but ECO . Unless I might have stopped and need to make up ground quick to catch the pack I am riding with . I have yet to encounter a hill I need more then eco for . I've climbed some steep ones . Of course I have climbed these same hills on regular bikes . Maybe that's why they seem so easy with an E-Bike without needing full juice.

One another note I don't live in a state with mountains . It's mainly flat . But the hills I encounter are cut thru the Sand dunes . So many are what I would call steep like 14 percent

PS: IT's Not What You Think: Before Buying an E-bike I was concerned that I'd be using Turbo to maintain what I was currently do on a Regular Bike ,just easier . If you are riding a Regular bike like me on 25-35 mile Trips . Getting and E-bike will feel like you're on Vacation . The first week I had mine I put 190 miles on in 3 Trips . I didn't even feel like I'd done much. Had I gone that far on a regular Bike in 3 days . I'd likely have died around 95 miles . Riding an e-bike is Big Time CHEATING . Butttttt It's a Blast . Sadly IMO unless you are continually exceeding 20MPH or More. You aren't getting a hell of a lot of excercise

I have a fat tire ebike and it's a blast.. great for exploring and covering a lot of ground so I'm already hooked.

 

[fooferdoggie]

In simple not technical terms Torque with a Vado is 4 times you . But that's in Turbo mode . In Eco it's like 2x you Sport 3x you and turbo is for times you. YOU BEING YOUR CADENCE Cadence is the number of pedal revolutions per minute
I rarely and I mean almost never use anything but ECO . Unless I might have stopped and need to make up ground quick to catch the pack I am riding with . I have yet to encounter a hill I need more then eco for . I've climbed some steep ones . Of course I have climbed these same hills on regular bikes . Maybe that's why they seem so easy with an E-Bike without needing full juice.

One another note I don't live in a state with mountains . It's mainly flat . But the hills I encounter are cut thru the Sand dunes . So many are what I would call steep like 14 percent

PS: IT's Not What You Think: Before Buying an E-bike I was concerned that I'd be using Turbo to maintain what I was currently do on a Regular Bike ,just easier . If you are riding a Regular bike like me on 25-35 mile Trips . Getting and E-bike will feel like you're on Vacation . The first week I had mine I put 190 miles on in 3 Trips . I didn't even feel like I'd done much. Had I gone that far on a regular Bike in 3 days . I'd likely have died around 95 miles . Riding an e-bike is Big Time CHEATING . Butttttt It's a Blast . Sadly IMO unless you are continually exceeding 20MPH or More. You aren't getting a hell of a lot of excercise

on my bosch powered bike thats nto the case. if I use the lowest assist level 20mph is a fair amount of work. at elast 160 watts I have to put out or more. but the higher the assist level the faster I ahve to go to get the same workout. like around 25 mph in the next assist level.

 

[AHicks]

Think you're right I'm looking at a pdf users manual for the BAFANG DPC240.CAN display/computer that comes with it and has no instructions for customizing the pas levels 0-6...

Have you been through this?

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

 

[Lar]

Have you been through this?

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

Not till now. Page one is not encouraging...

 

[Lar]

Have you been through this?

Bafang M500/M600 thread

Since this seems to be an interesting motor, why not have a separate topic for it? I'll start with three quotes I have found about the motor on this forum, feel free to add more information that you can find. Over the last couple of days I had heard that there had been reports of the M600...

endless-sphere.com

It's an off line copy and the server is not working for endless sphere so I can only see the 1st page. Pretty long thread so I would like to skip more to the end.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

The Luna M600 climbs faster than the levo

Funny that Electric Mountain Bike Network never mentioned Luna. It reminds me of some American bassists who claimed a Chinese $200 SX bass was better than the Fender Precision Bass that cost ten times more... There is something Luna will never get: reputation. Mountain biking is not about 2 kW of power or a throttle. It is not about the speed either. For reference, check the latest Orbea Rise e-MTBs with the new Shimano EP8 RS (low torque) motor. These cost well over ten grand bucks. Not without reason.

 

[ElevenAD]

Funny that Electric Mountain Bike Network never mentioned Luna. It reminds me of some American bassists who claimed a Chinese $200 SX bass was better than the Fender Precision Bass that cost ten times more... There is something Luna will never get: reputation. Mountain biking is not about 2 kW of power or a throttle. It is not about the speed either. For reference, check the latest Orbea Rise e-MTBs with the new Shimano EP8 RS (low torque) motor. These cost well over ten grand bucks. Not without reason.

i would not know as i do not mountain bike, or ride these types of bike however the guy in the video i posted does and he scored the $3xxx Luna basically equal to his $8xxx Levo and thats impressive. He is having fun on both,thats all that matters.
FWIW my Fender american Tele destroys my SX Tele, not even close!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

i would not know as i do not mountain bike, or ride these types of bike however the guy in the video i posted does and he scored the $3xxx Luna basically equal to his $8xxx Levo and thats impressive. He is having fun on both,thats all that matters.
FWIW my Fender american Tele destroys my SX Tele, not even close!

The guy in the video tried to sell his e-bikes, fair enough. As you understand the difference between the Fender and the SX, that's the same difference between a class e-MTB and Luna Of course, Lar has his choice (and the budget). I'm even not trying to convince him. (For $3xxx, you can get full-suspension Giant Stance E+ 2 2021, and that's a proper e-MTB in this price segment).