Thoughts Of An Experienced E-Biker

[Jason Knight]

@Jason Knight the funny thing about your rants against the normative ergonomic guidelines of performance biking is not so much the energy put into them, it’s the pretense that your armchair physiology is somehow more meaningful to all of us (otherwise, why write it?) than the decades (centuries?) of experience of millions of cyclists.

Because of course how dare someone reply to "It's for everyone" with "It's not for everyone?"
There are plenty of legitimate reasons to think that this "ride leaning forward" isn't for everyone, and in fact might be for many riders the opposite of good ergonomics. Made up nonsensical BS like "sit bones" being involved when the narrow seat and forward lean puts all your weight on the perennial, not the ischial tuberosity. Basic anatomy ALONE should be telling you how full of manure a great deal of the claims made by the bike industry are.

Alongside the stupid "but millions" propaganda manipulating the gullible and feeble minded. Millions upon billions of people believe and do all sorts of crazy nonsense. Doesn't make a single one of them right. From shoving jade eggs up the holiest of holies (enjoy your toxoplasmosis ladies), to random spices as cure-alls, to noodle doodle fairy tales about a genocidal sky wizard that "loves us", to thinking that an orange cheeto-fingered half-tweet is a "really stable genius"

I've made a very deep study of propaganda, and psychological failings such as cognitive dissonance over the years as part of my consulting work. And once you recognize it, the result is akin to putting on the Hoffman lenses from the movie "They Live."

Wrote about that couple years back on Medium:

The 7 Propaganda Techniques And How They Sucker Web Developers.

Near as can be told the “Seven Classical Propaganda Techniques” were first codified in an uncredited article in the second issues of…

medium.com

It's in relation to web development, but I see the same manipulation, dishonesty, and bypassing of rational thought in a lot of cycling gear and the cult-like mindset.

news flash: we’re not all idiots. i can throw on a pair of shorts, jump on either of my road bikes, and ride a hundred miles with no discomfort whatsoever. no armchair seat, no suspension, no giant tires, nothing to waste energy. just me (a middle aged guy with a desk job) on a 14 pound bike.

Well lah-de-dah for you. I have trouble walking to the garage. A lot of e-bike riders are older with decreased mobility. And thus, what works for you doesn't work for us. But again, I'm the one trying to force "my way to the exclusion of others", of course I am.

horses for courses. for a short, flat cruise around town or a scenic area, riders with more severe mobility or balance issues, lower speeds, etc more upright geometry is great, as are lower stepover heights and many other types of bikes. you won’t see me (or any other rider who enjoys the fitness/performance side of the sport) denigrating those adaptations.

Except of course when it's riders like the OP who did exactly that. Exactly what I quoted in fact. I won't see riders "denigrating those adaptations"? What the blue blazes did you think I was replying to?!?

 

[Djangodog]

Don't understand how more material attached to the rider reduces "chafing", particularly given the materials. Seems to cause the exact opposite. Common sense -- that increasingly rare superpower -- would make one think it should be the opposite as well. Slippy seat + loose fitting clothing == reduced chafing, not the other way around!


Then why is it marketed as such? Why do people like the OP claim it is such? Why do they keep rambling on with unfounded claims about "reducing pain" if that's not what it's for?


At which point methinks we have a different definition of the word "comfort". Since instant pain inducing would seem to do a lot of harm, thus wanting a position that doesn't hurt me!


That's another bit of BS I keep hearing. If you can't stand up out of your seat regardless of type or bar position? Bullcookies! More so things like cruiser bars mean you can get up out of the seat fully standing instead of contorting your back into an even less comfortable position since you go from bent arms to straight arms, instead of straight to straight! Well, unless you do something stupid like put the seat up so high you're getting full extension whilst seated. Aka way to also screw over your knees.

Business. Money. Thus, there's every reason to scam people. It's called marketing. As someone who's worked closely with marketing departments, propaganda and outright bunko are the norm. No different from Paltrow's goop, the naturopathic BS peddled by the turd calling himself an avocado, or the average Intel keynote.

The business of business is business. I heard that somewhere. Old school marketing concepts like customer delight are dead, and marketers killed it. You look at 90%+ of this junk, and what you see are the classic 7 propaganda techniques mated to black hat SEO (Search Engine Optimization) bunko. If the "industry" can throw customers under the bus to make just one extra shiny penny, they'll do it in an eyeblink. More so as the obsession with "constantly growing profits" continues to get more and more unsustainable. Same way investors will rape a company of every last penny of value and leave the broken battered corpse in the alleyway known as "bankruptcy." Don't believe me? Ask Sears, K-Mart, Macy's, and ToysWereUs. Ask the employees and customers of the slowly privatization of "public utilities." Ask everyone involved with credit unions that sleazy dirtbags conglomerates like GSA are swallowing up!

If a business can make more money with lies, pandering, and demagoguery (see Apple) than they can with product quality, value, and caring about the customer? Well, here comes the endless stream of marketing and advertising malarkey.

I will try to address your response.

First, the chamois and snug fitting spandex moves with you, thereby eliminating friction, (and chafing). It does add a little comfort to the unconditioned but as well, but it is not a cushion. Loose clothing sliding around on a “slippery“ saddle will irritate the rider on a long ride and the rider will have to expend energy trying to stay in position on said saddle.

Uncomfortable and comfortable are opposites. I like a bike that is in the middle ground, (neutral). If I want comfort, I will sit in my recliner. Riding in an aggressive or semi-aggressive position takes some conditioning and work. I like to be able to carve a nice turn, ride out of saddle on a steep climb and interact with the bike, (more like an alpine skier than someone on a toboggan).

You missed the point regarding the cycling industry. They make more money by selling more product. If your idea of cycling apparel and the bicycle itself were actually an improvement they would be all over it, (why wouldn’t they be). There is no reason for them to scam anyone. Maybe you feel that you are intellectually superior to all of the engineers and cyclists that have come before you. Maybe you have all the correct answers and the industry needs your input, but I have my doubts.

Stefan is an engineer and his opinions have evolved with his experience. That is a sign of someone that is open to new ideas and I not afraid of admitting that his opinion not etched in stone. He was good enough to share that here and I think that we need more Stefans. Be a Stefan.

 

[mschwett]

… when the narrow seat and forward lean puts all your weight on the perennial, not the ischial tuberosity. Basic anatomy ALONE should be telling you how full of manure a great deal of the claims made by the bike industry are…

once again, the problem with your “arguments” is not that everyone should do different things according to their needs (obviously true) but that you repeatedly state false facts about things which you clearly don’t understand.

the design of most “narrow” seats is higher at the width of the ischial tuberosities, lower (or completely cut out) in the middle, and properly adjusted they place little to no pressure on the perineal region. these saddles come in different widths because people’s bones vary and anyone with a couple pieces of cardboard or a half-decent bike shop can ascertain their location.

 

[Jason Knight]

First, the chamois and snug fitting spandex moves with you, thereby eliminating friction, (and chafing). It does add a little comfort to the unconditioned but as well, but it is not a cushion.

Then why did the op and most of the industry claim it as such?

Loose clothing sliding around on a “slippery“ saddle will irritate the rider on a long ride And the rider will have to expend energy trying to stay in position on said saddle.

That's what the nose is for.

You missed the point regarding the cycling industry. They make more money by selling more product. If your idea of cycling apparel and the bicycle itself were actually an improvement they would be all over it, (when wouldn’t they be).

Not if it costs more, has a more limited audience, and requires different economies of scale. I think you missed my point entirely in that whilst I was pissing on the crotch rocket riding position, I was not saying it's not effective for many people. What I was simply saying is it's not for everyone, and I'm sick of people like Stefan and the marketing scam bullshit typically found at your typical LBS taking a dump on it.

And you're right, they make more money selling product. Thus if they have a cheaper product that works and fits well for 70% or so of riders, that requires other expensive gear like athleticwear to work, they will do everything they can to market that cheaper product to that 30% it doesn't work for. It's why bespoke clothing has fallen out of favor for all but the mega-wealthy. Mass market sweat shop one size fits all means I either need to hem every pair of pants I buy, wear elastic sweats, or drop a grand for something tailored just because you can't get 40-25 off the rack.

He was short and fat and rode out of the west, with a star of David on his silver vest.

Marketing and consumerism is built around convincing people to buy things they don't need, things that don't fit, and slathering on advertising bunko.

There is no reason for them to scam anyone. Maybe you feel that you are intellectually superior to all of the engineers and cyclists that have come before you. Maybe you have all the correct answers and the industry needs your input, but I have my doubts.

Thing is I think you missed my point. Stefan basically said that upright seating, wide seats, cruiser bars, and such were wrong and nobody should use them. But how DARE I argue the contrary by saying it's not for everyone?

I'm not saying that the crotch rocket position doesn't work for some -- indeed many -- people. I'm just saying it's not compatible with everyone and I'm sick of hearing cyclists -- like Stefan -- pissing on the upright riding position from so on-high you'd think the almighty just got back from a kegger!

But no, he can s*it on it and parrot marketspeak double-talk until blue in the face. But how DARE anyone present a conflicting viewpoint based on their own experience.

This is why I hate cultism.

 

[Djangodog]

Then why did the op and most of the industry claim it as such?

That's what the nose is for.


Not if it costs more, has a more limited audience, and requires different economies of scale. I think you missed my point entirely in that whilst I was pissing on the crotch rocket riding position, I was not saying it's not effective for many people. What I was simply saying is it's not for everyone, and I'm sick of people like Stefan and the marketing scam bullshit typically found at your typical LBS taking a dump on it.

And you're right, they make more money selling product. Thus if they have a cheaper product that works and fits well for 70% or so of riders, that requires other expensive gear like athleticwear to work, they will do everything they can to market that cheaper product to that 30% it doesn't work for. It's why bespoke clothing has fallen out of favor for all but the mega-wealthy. Mass market sweat shop one size fits all means I either need to hem every pair of pants I buy, wear elastic sweats, or drop a grand for something tailored just because you can't get 40-25 off the rack.

He was short and fat and rode out of the west, with a star of David on his silver vest.

Marketing and consumerism is built around convincing people to buy things they don't need, things that don't fit, and slathering on advertising bunko.


Thing is I think you missed my point. Stefan basically said that upright seating, wide seats, cruiser bars, and such were wrong and nobody should use them. But how DARE I argue the contrary by saying it's not for everyone?

I'm not saying that the crotch rocket position doesn't work for some -- indeed many -- people. I'm just saying it's not compatible with everyone and I'm sick of hearing cyclists -- like Stefan -- pissing on the upright riding position from so on-high you'd think the almighty just got back from a kegger!

But no, he can s*it on it and parrot marketspeak double-talk until blue in the face. But how DARE anyone present a conflicting viewpoint based on their own experience.

This is why I hate cultism.

I don’t know why people get so upset. People aren’t demanding that you adopt a time trial position. Stating that a forward lean is more efficient is correct, yet some consider that to be personally offensive. It doesn’t mean that everyone can ride that way. My step daughter has no physical limitations, but insists on sitting on a large padded saddle in a completely upright position while complaining about getting bounced around by every bump and feeling unstable at higher speeds. It appears that she would prefer that physics adjust to her preference.

Everything in motion tries to rotate around it’s own center of gravity. If the center of resistance is behind the center of gravity, the object is directional stable, (if it is in front, the object is unstable. Shifting weight rearward, (body upright), reduces directional stability. Raising the center of gravity further reduces stability. An upright seating position makes it nearly impossible to go out of saddle, especially riding up hill, meaning that you cannot put your full weight on the pedals and that you cannot unweight your hind side to absorb shock. It also means that you are putting the entire weight of your upper body on you but and loading your spine, (hit a good bump and you may be tripling the force).

I haven’t raced in 30 years. I am 67 years old. Fourteen years ago I had a head on at fifty miles an hour, (I was on a motorcycle and the other vehicle was a car). I had multiple complex spiral fractures with fragmentation of the left tibia and fibula, a fractured right tibia, fibula and talus and a fractured twelfth vertebrae. Other injuries included herniated discs in the neck and lower back, severe concussion, internal bleading, temporary blindness, spinal cord injury, a torn labrum of the right hip and soft tissue injuries from head to toe. I had five surgeries on the left leg in the first ten days, and two since along with multiple procedures and two major surgeries on my spine. I spent nearly six months in a wheelchair. I also lost thirty millimeters of leg length on the left side and both ankles are reduced to approximately 30% of normal movement. Fourteen months after the accident, I rode the Prouty Charity Century on a LeMond Tete de Corse road bike. I can’t get as low as I used to, but I still ride on a firm and fairly narrow saddle. I am more upright than I used to be with my bars now being about level with my saddle. I ride in that position because it works. I still wear my bibs because they work as well. It is efficient. It allows me to unweight when I see an irregularity ahead and ride out of saddle when I need to. If I was riding around Amsterdam, I could ride upright, but on the New Hampshire, Vermont border, it wouldn’t make any sense. I rode 63 miles yesterday and climbed more than 4,200 feet averaging 16.5. My but is not sore and I feel as good as I ever do. People can ride on their head for all I care, but that odd choice doesn’t make it a good riding position and people feeling offended because someone points that out is ……. (I’ll let you fill that in).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Let me throw a loose remark (not related to the ongoing "debate" with Jason Knight).

Watch so many new threads starting with "Howdy" or "Newb" and reading: "I need a Class 3 e-MTB that would serve me for trails and commuting..." Anyone can see a unicorn here?

 

[m@Robertson]

Fortunately, we have a hero who can See The Truth and rescue us.

Unless, of course, the lizard people get to him first.

 

[Dave Rocks]

2 different bike styles. Get the bike that suits your purpose.

 

[Dave Rocks]

Let me throw a loose remark (not related to the ongoing "debate" with Jason Knight).

Watch so many new threads starting with "Howdy" or "Newb" and reading: "I need a Class 3 e-MTB that would serve me for trails and commuting..." Anyone can see a unicorn here?

2 different bike styles. Get the bike that suits your purpose.

 

[Dave Rocks]

Fortunately, we have a hero who can See The Truth and rescue us.

View attachment 137115
Unless, of course, the lizard people get to him first.

Roddy Piper!!!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

2 different bike styles. Get the bike that suits your purpose.

An electric motorcycle to be ridden "on your own property only", solely on the the throttle I'm sure it can achieve 60 mph! Notice the saddle: that thing actually cannot be pedalled. A commute? On the knobby tyres? That contraption must be roaring on the pavement! Now, fancy your trail is blocked by a fallen three. Try and lift the thing!

Idiots, idiots everywhere! (Only don't tell me it is a bicycle)

I can notice pedals on this thing too.

 

[tomjasz]

An electric motorcycle to be ridden "on your own property only",

I see them every day here. Get over it.

 

[Cowlitz]

Most comfy bicycle ever for me.

Going against the wind, I simply adjust the assist level. Going long distances? I go. I've had it on easy trails, on unpaved roads, on paved roads, in the rain, and it is just fine for me. Of course, I grew up riding clunkers and rode my Sears ten speed on what is now deemed only good for mountain bikes. I did get a good mountain bike to commute to work on later because it was low geared enough that I could pedal up the steep road to my house.

Did I say I like this bike?

 

[tomjasz]

Did I say I like this bike?

Sweet bike!

 

[Zekeer]

There no right of free speech on a forum.

All speech should be free . Who decides what isn't ? Another with a different opinion?

 

[Zekeer]

From what I have read on seat fitting . Or as stated by the researchers Saddle not seat . Comfort is more about how your sit bones end up . A saddle can be billow cloud comfortable . But if to narrow or to wide . Ends up hurting after a while anyway.
For me I found when I ,after several purchases. Finally took this advice and measured my sit bones using a piece of DIY corrugated cardboard . I am getting enormous comfort from a saddle most would look and think ouch. That looks like it would hurt big time . As there's no padding at all .

I also learned that most riders have their seats to low . Rarely if ever to high .

 

[m@Robertson]

All speech should be free . Who decides what isn't ? Another with a different opinion?

A forum is a private operation and you agree to its terms of use when you sign up. You literally have no rights of free speech on a private forum. You have what the forum allows you to have, and you agree to behave up to a certain standard or else. As an administrator on a huge automotive forum I delivered this lesson to many keyboard commandos over several years of adult babysitting.

With that said, to maintain the integrity of the forum the staff balance their actions. Usually very carefully and deliberately. I personally had a policy of never removing content once it was posted, unless it affected someone's safety or other serious consequence. I also never privately admonished anyone. They got their punishment publicly for all to see. So lots of whining, but it was also clear to all that jerks weren't getting away with being jerks. It also reinforced to all that there were boundaries to stay within.

BUT... that was my call on a different forum. Every forum sets its own rules and manages its membership's conduct as it sees fit. So put away the Free Speech signs. They don't apply in internet discussion.

 

[tomjasz]

All speech should be free . Who decides what isn't ? Another with a different opinion?

OFFS. Don’t be so naive. Forums are privately owned.

 

[Zekeer]

A forum is a private operation and you agree to its terms of use when you sign up. You literally have no rights of free speech on a private forum. You have what the forum allows you to have, and you agree to behave up to a certain standard or else. As an administrator on a huge automotive forum I delivered this lesson to many keyboard commandos over several years of adult babysitting.

With that said, to maintain the integrity of the forum the staff balance their actions. Usually very carefully and deliberately. I personally had a policy of never removing content once it was posted, unless it affected someone's safety or other serious consequence. I also never privately admonished anyone. They got their punishment publicly for all to see. So lots of whining, but it was also clear to all that jerks weren't getting away with being jerks. It also reinforced to all that there were boundaries to stay within.

BUT... that was my call on a different forum. Every forum sets its own rules and manages its membership's conduct as it sees fit. So put away the Free Speech signs. They don't apply in internet discussion.

OOH I agree to the degree you mention . It is unfortunate that so many in social media have such thin skins . But it is what it is .

OFFS. Don’t be so naive. Forums are privately owned.

Not naive . After all if there wasn't a monogram of this free speech you say isn't so . You wouldn't be here to spin your insults

 

[tomjasz]

You wouldn't be here to spin your insults

But i could get the ban hammer at any moment.