The ebike motor user database

pmcdonald

Well-Known Member
I'd like to try a bit of an experiment in this thread. I want to create a database - strictly in the qualitative sense - of user motor reviews. Specs and generalisations get tossed around a lot, but I'd like this thread to be a space for genuine, in-depth user reviews living with specific models and brands of motors: their feel, assist level, reliability, that sort of thing. With enough contributors this thread could be a place users visit to get an honest sense of the character of various motors. We'll see if it goes anywhere.

People are free to contribute however they wish, but I respectfully ask a few guidelines:
1) reviews on motors you've lived with for significant time only - no feedback on test rides, rentals or second-hand opinions;
2) no motor religious wars - all flavours welcome: mid drive, hub, throttle, no throttle, 250W, 2500W; and the biggest ask
3) could we just be real? No takedowns of other peoples reviews, defensiveness or confirmation bias please, just warts and all assessment.

I'll attempt to kick off with the two reviews below.
 
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Giant Syncdrive Sport (Yamaha)

A 70nm, 250W (nominal, peaks at about 600w) mid drive attached to my Giant Explore. I've done about 7,000km with the motor over +2.5 years.

It's a bit of a powerhouse. Low down torque is wild, meaning it has surprising push from a standstill at lower cadence. I've joked it has an agricultural or tractor-like quality to the power delivery. That's an exaggeration but it feels a bit lacking in refinement compared to others I've ridden. Nothing extreme, just not the seamless, 'one-with-the-rider' feel of a few other brands.

All that torque makes it a formidable climber though. The low cadence deliver means I can coast up very steep hills without too much exertion. My Explore is no trail bike but the over-run (how long the motor continues to deliver power after the rider stops input) makes semi-technical climbing a breeze.

It's also a really easy bike to pedal with the assist off, as I've found myself doing a surprising amount riding with unpowered friends and family. There's very little resistance whatsoever.

Reliability has been great in my case. I commute daily in everything from 0 - 44 degrees Celsius, rain or shine, night and day. I've been caught in some pretty massive downpours this last year. Aside from the precaution of covering my screen and controller with plastic bags the rain has caused no issues. I expect my luck will eventually run out.

The motors are meant to be reasonably serviceable by third party vendors.

All up the Syncdrive/Yamaha motor is a pretty easy one to live with as a commuter. It's there with ladles of torque when I'm riding to work in the baking heat or just recovering from a weekend on the trails. I can arrive fresh and crisp, or drop the assist down and get really solid range (~150km of flatish riding from a 500W battery).

I don't think I'd buy one again, not through any real fault of the motor but just because I think I'd like to try something new. Well worthy of consideration though if those easy climbing, hard pulling characteristics sound appealing.
 
Shimano EP8

A 85nm, 250W mid drive attached to my Merida e160 eMTB. I've ridden 1300 km over the past year on it.

Ah the EP8.. launching with some fanfare and then widely derided within much of the MTB community for being clattery, underpowered and inefficient.

It's a tricky one to review. Yes, it's all three of those things above. But it's also a sublimly natural motor. It is in total, complete lockstep with the rider. It doesn't overwhelm or run away with power. Cut the input and it instantly cuts the assist. That's a double edged sword for technical climbs, but most of the time it's a motor you almost forget about. And in my book that's a serious complement. When I jump on the pedals on the flats it instantly responds ampliftying my input. And the moment I let off it cuts off. It makes for very natural riding.

Almost in polar opposite to the Syncdrive I reviewed above, the EP8 likes to spin fast. The cadence sweet spot seems to be around 75 - 95 rpm, with it being quite happy sitting at 90 - 100 rpm. Which is a lot. Lower down where the Giant would thrive with a big push the Shimano just flouders a bit. The power is there, but you just need to coax it with more input. You're not going to get that wave of torque to push you over obstacles. It is what it is: I don't think you can have a natural motor feel without baseline engagement from the rider.

Now the bad. It's clattery. Shimano claims the noise is a by-product of a design feature to reduce pedal resistance and improve tolerance or something. Whatever the reason it's noticeable when free-wheeling down rough trails. It sounds a bit like a plastic bottle of bolts. With time the brain cancels it out but it's such a shame from an otherwise spectacularly natural motor experience.

The underpowered claim comes from comparison to the Bosch Perfomance and Brose motors used by competitors. I haven't spent enough time on either to comment, but the 85nm EP8 feels very similar in overall power to my 70nm Syncdrive. I arrive at work with a similar heartrate and feeling of exertion. It's bolted onto my eMTB which I ride for exercise - which it delivers in spades when ridden enthusiastically - but I can see how some riders might feel underwhelmed when coming from other motors. There's more than enough grunt to drag my butt up the reset trails though.

Economy I feel is about on par with my Syncdrive, which as they both feel similar sounds about right. Mine ride has a 630W battery which is good for 4-5 hard hours on the trails. I'm utterly cooked well before that.

I've had no issues in the year I'd ridden the bike. I keep it away from rain but don't shie from mud, dust, drops and the odd jump line. Shimano are more problematic for servicing, according to Performance Line Bearings in the UK. That really sucks.

Would I buy again? I'm not sure. It depends on the bike it was bolted to. I'd like to see future iterations of the motor with a small dollop more power, fix that bloody rattling and sort out serviceability.
 
The Specialized 1.2s (Brose TF)

This specific motor can only be found on the 2017 Specialized Turbo Vado 5.0 (the American Class 3 or European 45 km/h "moped") or on the current 45 km/h Vado 6.0.

There are two features making that very motor unique:
  • It is totally silent
  • It has been the first 90 Nm Specialized mid-drive motor.
The peak mechanical power of this motor is 520 W (666 W electrical).

These two features were making my Speed Vado a pleasure to ride (just fancy riding the road very fast at night with a powerful beam of the Supernova M99 Pro stock headlight... The Silent Death, as to say it :)) That powerful motor made it possible for me making long climbs up to 19% grade (with the mountain-worthy gearing). Another great feature was excellent acceleration capability and totally natural ride feeling.

The motor is totally waterproof.

Unfortunately, the motor fell apart inside after over 13,000 km ridden. The replacement in Europe is around EUR1,000, post-warranty.
 
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Giant SyncDrive Pro (2020) - Yamaha PW-X2

A powerful mid-drive with mechanical peak power of 520 W and 80 Nm torque. This motor is specifically optimized by Giant for mountain e-bikes. With 36/51T gearing and at the maximum assistance, the motor makes a Giant Trance E+ do a wheelie! A unique feature for that motor is "Zero Cadence": the motor activates as soon as you have set your foot on the pedal! (It allows climbing from the cold start on a trail).

The motor is very durable; 15,000 km ridden and no single issue.

Any cons? Yes.
  • Very noisy, especially at low speed/high cadence. The noise frequency is rather bassy.
  • The motherboard is located at the bottom of the motor chamber is jeopardised with water ingress
  • Not totally waterproof.
The good news is the only part that needs to be ever serviced are the bearings/seals, and that could be easily done.
 
bosch 2nd gen performance speed 14,000 miles worked great I got some rust on the left side crank bearing. this happened most likely because I would ride in the rain two times a day and without a unhealed garage sometimes the bike woods stay wet for days. it was replaced for free 2 months out of warranty. 2nd gen performance motor on our tandem almost 10,000 miles now and is fine.
 
My only experience with a big name mid drive is ~2500 miles with Yamaha PW-SE on a BH gravel bike, 70nm. Overall performance is excellent for me. Motor noise is only very noticeable to me when pedaling high cadence at low speed in low gear up an incline. Higher cadences (80-90 rpm) at higher speeds are hard for me to even hear the motor over tire and wind noise. The zero cadence feature is mostly sort of annoying in most situations. Just the weight of resting a foot on a pedal waiting at a stop makes the motor activate - not dangerous but not a feature that I'd choose. My biggest complaint is that the walk assist isn't activated.
Tongsheng TSDZ2 aftermarket add on motor (~3,000 miles total on the two that I have) is almost perfect for me with less of a "zero cadence" boost feel and none of the proprietary parts and programming nonsense. Walk assist works which is a great feature that I've found helpful in several situations or found myself wanting when on my Yamaha powered bike. Motor noise is probably similar to the Yamaha but sometimes higher pitched, sometimes more silent depending on conditions but overall not much different. Biggest issue is potentially poor chainline which is common to this type aftermarket mid drive. The new CYC Photon has addressed the chainline issue and I'll be curious how reviews of that aftermarket torque sensing mid drive pan out.
I have geared hub motors on my wife's bike and a couple bikes that I've played around with. Not as natural a feel as my torque sensing mid drives and I rarely ride those bikes except as a novelty.
 
Giant Syncdrive Pro (2018 Yamaha)

Mostly trouble free for 23,366 miles so far, except for some roughness at the pedals around 14,479 miles which resulted in 2 bearings being replaced in the motor which I put down to riding through the Scottish winters! Almost 8,000 miles later and its riding like new and is super smooth! I have found the motor to be very strong on even the toughest of climbs, no need to use levels 4 or 5 at all. My bike does have 22 gears though so in the low gears in level 3 you can easily climb 20% gradients. The motor is a bit noisy when using the low gears and spinning fast but as soon as I'm on the big ring and spinning a bit slower its hardly noticable!
 
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Shengyi rear hub 350W
(Ride1UP Roadster v2 Single Speed Carbon Belt)

6500+ miles over 1.5+ years, with pretty much rock solid performance and good torque (40nm) for what I need.

Very quiet motor, and carbon belt seals the deal, for low noise operation. Almost silent at lower power output, and only a mild hum at higher power settings.

Real-life max wattage output ~550 watts (as measured by my Aftermarket EggRider Display)

Max single rides with internal plus extender battery ~95 miles, max altitude gain 8000 ft

At full PAS and extended hill climbing with my own full effort, motor will sometimes cut out briefly. And voltage lag with power cutoff, at lower battery voltages under heavier output. But that’s no different from any of the e-bikes I’ve owned. Limiting to nominal power output and or dropping to lower assist, no such problem.
 
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Specialized SL 1.1

This motor (owned by Specialized but made by Mahle) is universally used throughout the Specialized SL ("superlightweight") line of Turbo e-bikes: Creo SL (road e-bike), Creo SL EVO (gravel e-bike), Vado SL (fitness e-bike), Como SL (city e-bike), Levo SL (Trail e-MTB), and Kenevo SL (Enduro e-MTB). The same system is used on all these e-bikes, sharing the same main battery and Range Extender batteries, with two flavours of the Turbo Control Unit (TCU): the older one and the newer MasterMind. SL e-bikes are not equipped with any display; the user can either use a wireless TCD display or a smartphone running Mission Control App or a Garmin Edge or Wahoo ELEMNT bike GPS computer as a display.

The SL 1.1 motor intentionally has the same 240 W nominal and peak power to keep it strictly within the Euro 250 W Pedelec limits (35 Nm). The motor is made the way it creates no resistance when the e-bike is pedalled unassisted.

E-bikes using the SL 1.1 motor give totally natural riding experience; switch the assist OFF and you might even not notice the lack of the motor! SL e-bikes are designed for healthy users* who would use the assistance only when necessary (hills, rough terrain, headwind). Using the low assistance mode gives SL e-bikes a huge range** provided the rider is able to input a considerable amount of own leg power.

The SL 1.1 motor is noisy. It produces high-pitched whine. It is, however, easy to ignore the noise under most of riding situations unless you are riding in a very quiet environment. (It is the motor tone not the loudness that is annoying).

Provided the described motor offers half the power of a typical full-power e-bike motor, a potential user should consider applicability of SL e-bikes for significant climbs.

8,238 trouble free km (5,000+ mi) in 18 months.
--------------
*) Having said the above, let me mention I am not a healthy person yet I ride an SL e-bike. I had to accept slower average speed, the necessity of using of higher assistance, and generally cannot ride the SL e-bike unassisted. Still, Vado SL is the most often used e-bike I own because of its light weight, possibility to keep the bike in my apartment, and take it for a ride whenever I wish.
**) The SL 1.1 motor is very economical up to 65/65% assistance/max motor power. Above that figure, the power consumption steeply increases, so use of Range Extenders becomes the necessity.
 
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Bafang 350W rear hub motor
(2017 Juiced CrossCurrent Air)

Motor worked well for about the first 10,000 miles but then started to get noisy, whined at higher power levels, and then completely shut down. Turned out that a new controller got it running again, but the whining persisted.

Still running at about 12,000+ miles, but rarely ride this one any more (in favor of my single speed carbon belt e-bike).

Always had an issue with voltage lag (power cutting out under high load, when down to low battery voltage remaining), improved when the controller was replaced with the latest version.

Would I get this one again, not sure. For the time (2017) and price (under $1500) and under 50 lb bike, not bad for the time, so in hindsight yes still a good motor and bike. I think the overall e-bike industry and technology may have improved since then.

On the other hand, getting 10,000+ miles on the motor isn’t too bad. Maybe I’m expecting too much.
 
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Shimano E5000

A 40nm 250 Watt Torque-Sensing Class One Mid-Drive, in my case, matched with a 46 pound full suspension eMTB and 460 Wh battery, 1,000 miles on the motor in about a year and a half.

This motor is typically used on city or commuter bikes, and using it for an eMTB (in 2019 or so, if I had to guess) was an unusual choice for Motobecane-- either demented or brilliant, depending on how you look at it. The most significant things about it are that it's one of the lowest power motors on the market, it's more lightweight than Shimano's other motors by a pound or so, and it's pretty efficient. It has very few features, bells or whistles. It's also very, very quiet.

On the one hand, it seems a little crazy to put a motor with this little power on any eMTB under any circumstances-- even one that weights 49 pounds out of the box. On the other, it costs under $1,000 to drop three pounds from the particular bike I bought, so if you consider a $10,800 45.25 pound 2022 Orbea Rise M with an EP8 throttled to 60 nm, Motobecane's idea of having a 40nm motor pushing a $3,000 (after mods), 46 pound bike starts to seem a lot less stupid. I think there might be other 35 or 30nm eMTBs out there somewhere, but I think they also weigh about 41 or 42 pounds. It's also nice to have a bike that's this quiet on the trail-- you won't be bothering the wildlife or other riders. Sometimes I think it may have gotten slightly louder over the past 1,000 miles, but sometimes I think I'm imagining it.

I haven't put that many miles on the clock, and it may turn out that the E5000 simply won't stand up to the kind of punishment that I'm giving it-- that it really is a motor best suited for tooling around the city or a small town. That is clearly what it was designed for, based on Shimano's literature.

But so far, I haven't had seen any evidence of any excessive wear and tear. This could be because I'm somewhat limited in my rides due to work, age, and health conditions. Maybe a younger rider, who didn't stop as frequently as I do, or who was climbing intermediate or intermediate/advanced trails every week, instead of a half dozen times a year, would rip this thing to shreds. But for me, at 65, it seems far more likely that my own health will start giving out long before the motor does.

My typical ride is about 8 to 10 miles with 800 to 1,200 feet of vertical, I do that three times a week in the fall and spring and once a week in the coldest or hottest weather. On my platform, a fit rider can probably manage at least 45 miles with 4,500 feet of vertical, including very short stretches of grades over 20%. I've gotten about 40 miles with 4,000 feet of vertical from a single charge with a 20% to spare, but only with extreme effort. I only do that a handful of times a year, and I don't try it without training for a few weeks.

There are only three levels of assist, and I should note that there was an update in 2021 or 2022 which gives riders the option of "Sportiv" power delivery profile. It does not increase the maximum torque that the motor can deliver, but significantly decreases the rider effort needed to max out the motor in NORMAL or HIGH assist. Hold your nose, set aside an hour or two, download Shimano's excruciating app, and stay out of the bourbon or wacky tobaccy while updating the controller, because I read somewhere that if you do it wrong, you can brick the controller. (It's not that hard, just go slow, pay attention, and you'll be fine.) It's worth it-- I'd say make the switch to Sportiv if you're riding anywhere with any significant hills, and the original factory mode would only be useful for flat terrain, where it might extend your range. ECO mode is unaffected by switching between the original mode and Sportiv, and you can switch back and forth between the original factory mode and Sportiv. (You might have to use the ghastly app to do that, I can't remember.)

Even in Sportiv, if you're climbing an intermediate/advanced trail, you're going to be in granny gear and maxing the motor's output most of the way up; I do find that I lower the assistance on even brief flat segments because I feel like I'm working the motor really hard, though I've never had it overheat and it's never shown any change in performance even when pushed hard. I'm sure this is less of a PITA with Shimano's other motors, but as tradeoffs go, this isn't a bad one.

The power delivery, generally, is very smooth and natural feeling in all three assist modes. Occasionally, in granny gear at max assist, I used to experience just a little surging on the downstroke, but I'm pretty sure this was user error. The combination of human and electric power delivery can be very precisely controlled within the narrow range of power available. If I feel the tires beginning to slip on a steep, sandy uphill hairpin, I just decrease the effort I'm putting into the pedals slightly, and the motor responds instantly-- I've never had to lay the bike down for that particular reason. I have dumped it trying to go up very steep hills, but only when I simply didn't have the strength to add enough of my own energy to the rear wheel or because the surface was just too slippery-- segments that might have actually been harder with a more high-powered bike.

Even before I tried any other torque-sensing mid-drive, I never felt the need for more levels of assist, and I assumed this was because there's so little power available to begin with! However, when I later rode an E8000, I actually found having more than four levels of assist kind of annoying.

I feel a little silly writing such a long review, because the E5000 is an odd little motor you're not likely to find anywhere, and we'll probably be seeing less of them as the years roll by. However, there's VERY little information online about them-- so little that people who are trying to find out about them sometimes respond to posts I've made here trying to get a little more detail! (This happened just a few weeks ago.)
 
On the one hand, it seems a little crazy to put a motor with this little power on any eMTB under any circumstance
Tell it Specialized that uses a 240 W, 35 Nm motor on the whole SL line of e-bikes, including Levo SL and Kenevo SL e-MTBs, also these crazily expensive S-Works versions :)
For instance, Turbo Levo SL Comp weighs 41 lb 10 oz. (The carbon version is 17.84 kg without pedals, it is some 39.3 lbs).
 
Bafang 250W front hub motor
(2015 Volt Bike Elegant)

Only 250 watts, Class 1, and front hub driven? Crazy, right?

Turns out this has been a solid, reliable, essentially trouble free motor. And paired with a shimano internal rear 3 speed hub, maintenance free for the most part. Fairly quiet, with a low hum, probably given the lower power.

Really no complaints for an around town, low range e-bike (15-25 mile range). Low expectations, exceeded. Fine bike for the spouse, who rides far less than I. Probably only 3-4,000 miles on this one.
 
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