The bike I'm looking for may not exist will.....I will try to provide my wish list

[michaelmac]

The bike I'm looking for may not exist will.....I will try to provide my wish list..But there are probably a couple of things that I will have missed
I have some.... Let's call them physical challenges ,,that are the reason for my wish list.
To Start off with,,,,,I should probably include my electric bike experience to date. I have a Blix Sol ,,, which I love ,,,, except it doesn't meet some of my new parameters. Also, my wife has a Elektra townie GO ,,,, fantastic bite. And, it comes close to meeting my needs except it does not have a throttle.
Anyway here goes with my Wish List.....
Throttle and Petal assist
torque rather than magnetic cassette
flat technology ....Or a small enough frame and tire size to put my feet flat on the ground .... I have a 29 inch inseam
500 Wt motor
17 inch ....step over size
minimum of 2 inch plus tires
no fenders
swept back,,, mustache handlebar
upright seated position
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,I did do some reading/searching within the archives but did not come up with all the answers to the above Wish List.
And ,as I said I probably have missed a few important things.
Thanks in advance for any help or ideas.
Michael
the lighter weight the better

 

[fooferdoggie]

here you go you would have to remove the fenders then you can use larger tires. http://egbike.com/EGUSA/index_files/Page4424.htm

 

[6zfshdb]

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They make both 26" and 24" sizes. My wife is 5' 2" and the 26" size fits her fine.

 

[Ken M]

Hi, Since you are looking for something special I wanted to get your take on a project ebike as small team and I are working on (see photo is of the 1st unit that will be here by end of Febuary). There will be two versions and it's the one not pictured that is my priority and probably the one you would prefer if you are an urban commuter. It will have integrated mustache / pull back carbon bars and stem, a rigid carbon fork (better handling & less maintenance), the wheels will be magnesium (so never have to worry about breaking spokes) and staggered with robust urban tires (26 x 3" rear & 27.5 x 2.8 front so it should handle rock solid like a moped), it will have a belt drive and be a single speed (the one shown will be a 3 speed geared hub), 625wh battery, and both torque PAS and throttle (Class 1 on both but unlockable PAS & throttle performance up to 55kph if desired - please I don't need to here all the concerns about that being too fast because most riders have hit that speed on downhills before ebikes even existed).

Since it will have the 750 nominal (1600W peak) Bafang M620 ultra with 160nM peak torque I believe there will be no issue riding this bike in most cities (human power is great to get a bike to 10mph or a bit more and then the motor hits it's stride for faster speeds). Once at about 40kph the cadence of the fixie will be around 90rpm so riders can just ghost pedal up to 36mph becasue in reality at these higher speeds humans are only able to provide about 15-25% of the power to sustain those speeds anyway so gearing is kind of a marketing gimmick).

Give me your thoughts as well as others we are looking to do an organic pre-order campaign on this ebike soon. We feel it will be very unique and be one great urban mobility model (powerful enough for cargo duty and fast enough for the most avid urban commuter).

Oh, since it's powerful if you want to ride it "flintstone style" with the saddle low that is not a problem and the top tube is at mid-step height for stiffness but still very approachable.

 

[vincent]

Interesting bike

one place where you and I differ is feeling like starting the bike/getting to ten mph is not a big deal and higher top speeds are more important, at least that is my impression from what you said here and other places

I know you put throttle on this bike and hope it is full power in every pas level
But to me it is a big deal to get these heavy bikes rolling from a stop, the main reason I use a throttle

nothing annoys me more than watching a bicyclist crossing a road Not being able to get their bike started and in the process backing up traffic
I always think “those people should be on an ebike!”

getting started quickly using power not just my pedal power would be a huge thing if I was commuting

 

[michaelmac]

here you go you would have to remove the fenders then you can use larger tires. http://egbike.com/EGUSA/index_files/Page4424.htm

I took a look at the Geneva good-looking and interesting bite but I don't think that the stepper will work for me.
Some of the things on my list are not set in stone but to step through is as is throttle. It was interesting to see a mid motor bike that has a throttle.
Thanks for your reply

 

[vincent]

Did you check biktrix? I don’t know if they have any with the mid drive but their bikes all have throttle and he has a few step thrus

 

[Ken M]

Interesting bike

one place where you and I differ is feeling like starting the bike/getting to ten mph is not a big deal and higher top speeds are more important, at least that is my impression from what you said here and other places

I know you put throttle on this bike and hope it is full power in every pas level
But to me it is a big deal to get these heavy bikes rolling from a stop, the main reason I use a throttle

nothing annoys me more than watching a bicyclist crossing a road Not being able to get their bike started and in the process backing up traffic
I always think “those people should be on an ebike!”

getting started quickly using power not just my pedal power would be a huge thing if I was commuting

Canada has a regulation that a throttle can't operate from stop because that can be a safety hazard. I have seen people hit the the throttle on emopeds and ebikes while no one was on them and a few times they went crashing into something. One of the mopeds ended up with a broken head light and front fender which were not cheap. I would prefer that the engagement speed for the throttle just be something above 0 kph/mph to prevent potential issues like this. These are not powerful drive systems but when no one is sitting on them they are pretty powerful.

A 200lb rider standing on the pedals generates about 160 nm of torque which is more than virtually every ebike motor so I have no clue how anyone can claim that a rider alone can not accelerate fast enough from a stop. It's the very slow speeds where humans are most efficient on a bike and the motors are most inefficient which is really the driving force of the idea behind this idea. It's fine if someone wants to use a throttle a lot at slow speeds because it's only going to consume more of the battery capacity which is not really a big deal....it will certainly help acceleration.

What I find most interesting about debating a throttle on an ebike is that most people don't see it as just another form of assist control - many people associate a throttle with not / never pedaling but on a throttle ebike the rider can pedal and infinitely control the assist they get. Neither cadence or torque PASs can provide that level of control. It fact I think the PAS are more about engineering egos than a practical solution (I'm an engineer so it's OK for me to say this). I think a torque-based PAS on mtn ebikes is really good but for street riding a throttle is much less costly and complex and provide the rider the control to get EXACTLY the assist they want and they can still pedal which some just don't quite understand for some reason....

 

[vincent]

I agree with the bafang ultra you can easily start the in level 2-3 pas, so in the case of your bike I get it
It is just not many bikes have that much torque and power

Every day I see someone struggling to get their bike started across a street
This is to me a major selling point of ebikes, the ability to get moving quickly

Agree somewhat on just throttle bikes, the problem with that comes with holding the twist or thumb throttle for long periods of time

If the bike is light enough and you don’t need the power much once you get going that might work

But for 30-40 mile rides I don’t want only throttle

 

[Ken M]

I see people struggling to get started sometimes because they are "flintstone" riding and don't even stand on the pedals to use body weight when they want to accelerate faster.

The only reason I like the idea of a throttle only ebike is to get rid of sensors and ebrakes that just add cost and complexity. If you ride a PAS critically you will find out their are programming issues with all of them. One of the biggest is that the weaker riders, who need more assist at all times, get less assist than stronger riders (the way some torque sensors are set up some really weak or handicapped riders never get much assist). They don't compensate for rider weight which is a big factor. I know my Yamaha PW mid ebike has a problem when you down shift going up hill - the assist drops so much because the lower gear sees less crack torque such that the assist falls so much you have to down shift two speeds to have it easier to pedal which is the point of downshifting in the first place. I've explained this to people with Yamaha mids that never really noticed this until I told them to check out what I said and they all came back saying I was right (their brains just didn't register).

In reality most cadence PAS systems are just on/off switches for a set assist level - pedaling faster doesn't get you more assist. Most people don't even notice. I know my older Izip express had a cool cadence system that the faster the cadence the higher the assist level so you could ghost pedal it as if it was a throttle.

Grin has a throttle mode that sets the throttle level at a preset power level if not moved for like 5 seconds. It's pretty much and auto cruise mode - you can let off the throttle and that assist level remains constant. I do think they prefer it to be dis-engaged via an ebrake but I think you can just hit the throttle again and it resets the active mode again. They also have a very cool lower range progressive breaking breaking that can be programmed on their Phaserunner controller if you have a DD hub motor or their clutchless GMAC motor. I think Grin is trying to eliminate the only bad thing about a throttle in that you need to have it at the desired position while riding at all times but that is normal in the power sports world and unless you use your cruise control on your car a lot you are effectively having to remain engaged constantly on a throttle (your brain just kind of does this automatically while driving).

 

[fooferdoggie]

I see people struggling to get started sometimes because they are "flintstone" riding and don't even stand on the pedals to use body weight when they want to accelerate faster.

The only reason I like the idea of a throttle only ebike is to get rid of sensors and ebrakes that just add cost and complexity. If you ride a PAS critically you will find out their are programming issues with all of them. One of the biggest is that the weaker riders, who need more assist at all times, get less assist than stronger riders (the way some torque sensors are set up some really weak or handicapped riders never get much assist). They don't compensate for rider weight which is a big factor. I know my Yamaha PW mid ebike has a problem when you down shift going up hill - the assist drops so much because the lower gear sees less crack torque such that the assist falls so much you have to down shift two speeds to have it easier to pedal which is the point of downshifting in the first place. I've explained this to people with Yamaha mids that never really noticed this until I told them to check out what I said and they all came back saying I was right (their brains just didn't register).

this is why they make gears. I never have to stand to get going fast with or without a throttle or even a e bike. I used to reach about 20 mph crossing the street on my recumbent. I usually pass up people that stand. its a lot more effient to shift to the lower gear to start and shifting up. both of my mid drives the one with a dapu drive and my bosch speed work great on this weak rider. you may have to push a tiny bit more at higher speeds to keep the power up on the dapu but its not much. I ride on full assist and starting is not a issue if you are in the right gear. I used the throttle on steeper hills to start on the dapu but on the bosch its not a problem it is not a problem to shift to lower gears on hills either I do it all the time.

 

[vincent]

I get your point about the complexity issues but honestly I have not had a lot of problems if any with all of my bikes and all of them with the exception of one have been PAS

I think there are still some crappy programmed cadence bikes out there but think that is getting better
And agree even the torque based PAs Bikes have some issues

Surely the Pas systems will just get better and better

Totally understand what you were saying about the Yamaha drive, it climbs like a goat but you have to be able to pedal it hard To get the torque to kick in

I use cruise control constantly on my cars

When I wrote that thought about the cruise control set ups, I don’t know much about those and I know grin has great stuff but that requires having a builder And finding an analog bike that works which just gets complicated, I seriously considered building a folding bike and it was more money and hassle than just buying one

 

[Ken M]

I haven't had any issues with my PAS ebikes but I have read about crank torque sensors changing performance over time. I do truly get the appeal of the torque based PAS because it most closely mimics the traditional riding experience of a bike. That said though, I don't think a throttle really takes that away.

I think most mid drive bikes sold in the US will end up having both throttle and PAS (at some point Bafang will take enough market share from Brose, Bosch, and Yamaha they will add throttles). Bafang's mid drive strategy in that regard and going with higher power that is allowed here is brilliant - as the US market continue to grow their market share here and economies of scale will grow. Knowing that Bafang has both a 120nm and 160nm mid drive with throttles I would likely have never purchased a Bosch and Yamaha power Haibike if they were out earlier.

It was funny because the first time I rode a cadence PAS ebike it felt like just an on/off switch so I asked the dealer and they didn't even realize that is what it was until checking the specs. I think a lot of people assume that the assist increases with cadence but I don't think that is the case with any of the currently sold cadence PAS ebikes (only the Izip Express did that).

I think what I'm most interested in determining when is there enough motor power that having gears to optimize the human input because a waste of money and complexity. I do believe that was part of the goal of the Bafang Ultra mid. I watched the EBR review of the lower power 120nm motor and within two revolution of the crank the rider went from 1st to 8th gear so were those lower gears really important for those few seconds of improved acceleration? That I think will be subjective for a lot of riders but one thing is certain ... powerful mid drives will put more wear and tear on a drive system which will increase service costs. A fixie belt of one with an internal geared hub (with like just 3 gears) is going to to prove out over time on urban commuting bikes.

 

[vincent]

I’m totally with you, if the ultra had been out three or four years ago all my bikes would probably be that motor

Or the M600, I like that motor also and it’s lighter

I want the ultra with an internal hub and belt- wattwagon has this now and I have one
don’t know how I would do with no gears but would be willing to try that

 

[Ken M]

I’m totally with you, if the ultra had been out three or four years ago all my bikes would probably be that motor

Or the M600, I like that motor also and it’s lighter

I want the ultra with an internal hub and belt- wattwagon has this now and I have one
don’t know how I would do with no gears but would be willing to try that

You have a Wattwagon... Love that ebike (would have been my first purchase if available at the time but now I'm just short of the money to buy one). Let me see if you can do this for me. Could you put it in a gear that is something close to a 3:1 fixed ratio and just let me know if you really feel that having the extra gears adds much value other than allowing consistent cadence thru the speed range? I've done this on my Yamaha mid with half the power/torque vs the M620 ultra and it seems close to what I would consider a fixie urban mobility ebike.

Since you have a bit of biased towards gearing, I would really be interested if you think it's close enough to go fixie with this motor. Gears would always be an option if my partners and I tried to sell an ebike like this but your feedback would be of some help (we just don't have an Ultra ebike yet).

 

[erider_61]

Canada has a regulation that a throttle can't operate from stop because that can be a safety hazard.

Where are you getting that info? I have a VoltBike Bravo that has a throttle and can be engaged without pedal assist from a complete stop. Canadian company and no regulations in Ontario prohibiting that.

 

[Ken M]

Where are you getting that info? I have a VoltBike Bravo that has a throttle and can be engaged without pedal assist from a complete stop. Canadian company and no regulations in Ontario prohibiting that.

Wow...I may be wrong but I thought I read recently that Canada was requiring throttles to be non-functional when the bike was stopped as a safety feature. While I tend to now like regulations like this the idea makes sense because I have personally seen multiple brain-dead people that were told the bike was turned on stand next to it and hit the throttle and with no one on it the bike can just jump forward fast. It's not something that should happen but given that ebikes are totally quiet on or off it's something that can happen to anyone. I even saw the owner of EBO hit the throttle in their shop with two customers almost in front of the bike and he was not aware it was on. It was funny but it actually could have hit one of them.

I definitely read it someplace but I didn't find it just now....maybe someone can verify if I was right.

 

[vincent]

I am pretty careful around my throttles , do understand what you are saying about that
Have accidentally bumped them a time or two but guess I always have a hand close to grab the brake

could totally see non ebikers not used to them doing that

I am not near the bike until this weekend but will do this if you tell me which gear that would be on the rohloff

So what is the theory here, we would use the throttle to adjust for help instead of changing gears or run the pas up and down to compensate?

Having both the yamaha and ultra I don’t think they are similar enough to compare that way because the yamaha is so much weaker

Seems like if you were going to do this with a one gear bike it would have to be the big motors and definitely with a throttle

 

[erider_61]

The Voltbike throttle does have an on/off button that cuts off power to the motor. Also one of the first things I learned when mounting/dismounting my ebike was to engage a brake to disable the motor.