Talk me into/out of a Delite GX HS

[webcurl]

Hopefully the model i will take !! (just not sure with the front carriere cause it may be like the supercharger which means moving when you turn which I am not sure about
Also GX option what does it bring concretly ? better fork and breaks ? is it really worth it ?

I was almost buying a supercharger last month !! good i didn't !

To quote the above repost from an Italian site:
"GX option 140 mm travel, Fat Tire All-Terrain, dropper post, flat pedals, Ergon grips with bar ends, not in combination with ABS option, pannier rack 203,90 €"
It's early days though with these new models.
I have one of these permanately attached to my front rack (size: large):
https://www.litelok.com/collections/litelok-gold-range/products/litelok-gold-wearable-crow-black
Never have problems apart from me putting an elastic strap round the handlebars and some cables that i thought -may- rub. And no problems ever since.

 

[elect]

The only thing that bothers me is that there is no mention of the possibility to put in the powertube 625 that were just announced, according to what you show it is 1000w only which is a shame cause 250W extra will for sure be in next year model

I was also wondering the same, this way they are kind of hindering some customer from buying

 

[webcurl]

I was also wondering the same, this way they are kind of hindering some customer from buying

I guess they didn't have time to re-design the geometry with the additional 67mm length of the Powertube 625 or they weren't yet available at the time, but at the same time 67mm isn't much.
But overall i think R&M do a fantastic job of designing their bikes and complete perfection is rare.

 

[Looktoft]

I wrote to Riese & Müller yesterday and ask why they do not use the new Bosch 625 Wh akku, in their 2020 models.
Riese & Müller wrote back with this answer:

Dear Mr.

There are several reasons why we deliberately decided against using the 625 Wh battery.

A. We already exculsively use 500 Wh batteries in all our models. We do not see a real need for the plus of 125 Wh. A large part of the customers uses 25 km/h models for everyday driving, for which already today 500 Wh are completely sufficient. It is not for nothing that this is our bestseeling option.

B. The 500 Wh battery marked a new battery generation with new cells and their higher energy density. The 625 Wh battery contains the same technology. It just has more cells and is therefor 600g heavier and approx. 7 cm longer than the previous PowerTube variants.

 

[Sirae]

I wrote to Riese & Müller yesterday and ask why they do not use the new Bosch 625 Wh akku, in their 2020 models.
Riese & Müller wrote back with this answer:

Dear Mr.

There are several reasons why we deliberately decided against using the 625 Wh battery.

A. We already exculsively use 500 Wh batteries in all our models. We do not see a real need for the plus of 125 Wh. A large part of the customers uses 25 km/h models for everyday driving, for which already today 500 Wh are completely sufficient. It is not for nothing that this is our bestseeling option.

B. The 500 Wh battery marked a new battery generation with new cells and their higher energy density. The 625 Wh battery contains the same technology. It just has more cells and is therefor 600g heavier and approx. 7 cm longer than the previous PowerTube variants.

So basically they say it is not needed, which might be understandable, I just hope that in 3-4 years when those current batteries will be dead from recharging them X times, we will be able to purchase a new set of 500w tubes for our (very) expensive bikes

Because let's be very clear if you buy today a super delight, with all the nice upgrades rolhoff and all that, it sets you back about 9K and you don't want to buy a new one in 3-4 years I intend to keep that bike for a VERY long time ! Changing stuff if needed like a new engine or new breaks and what not but not buying a whole new bike... at least not for like 10 years or so

Am i completely unrealistic with that bike lifespan ?

 

[elect]

I think no, I'd use the term optimistic, but not unrealistic

I also hope to get from mine at least 10 years

anyway, if I think about it, I'd say A. is kind of bullshit, I mean I find completely ridiculous them stating there is no real need for 25% more.

A 25% more range would affect either:
- the longest routes (where 500Wh is almost right), they'd be more feasible because people wouldnt go crazy about the remaining charge
- the shorther routes, by increase confortability, because this would mean charge less frequency

And when they say that 500Wh is their bestseeling option.. dont tell me.. I'd go for 625 if I could

 

[Sirae]

I also don't see the point in not going to the bigger version, and I am sure they will go for it next year they just don't want to say it now cause they didn't have the time to rethink the frame I suppose... but saying that to potential customer is bad cause then people would just sit this version out and take on next years model

 

[Looktoft]

I also don't see the point in not going to the bigger version, and I am sure they will go for it next year they just don't want to say it now cause they didn't have the time to rethink the frame I suppose... but saying that to potential customer is bad cause then people would just sit this version out and take on next years model

I wait for 2021 models and get 1250 Wh batteries.
I am not giving $8000+ knowing there is a better battery from Bosch.

 

[Chris Nolte]

Something not mentioned in this discussion about the battery is the geometry of the frame. Adding 67mm to a frame which already tends to be larger is not a good thing for accessibility. Adding this 67mm would add to the already talk standover and make the bikes reach longer. I do think we will eventually see larger batteries in the same form factor as the 500Wh. The 625Wh could have been the same size if Bosch waited another year, but this industry is moving so quickly and they didn’t want to lag behind.

I should also mention that Bosch has said publicly that they will continue to support their products for at least seven years after they stop manufacturing.

 

[webcurl]

I wait for 2021 models and get 1250 Wh batteries.
I am not giving $8000+ knowing there is a better battery from Bosch.

By that time there may be 750Wh batteries and times 2 equal 1500Wh and because they've only been planned by Bosch (which i'm sure perhaps R&M have access to or involved with) to release a few months later, not being incorporated into R&M designs, people will think they're not moving fast enough. Wait all you want, i didn't and have now had over a year of enjoying my 2018 R&M SC GX.
As i said and Chris said, it may have come down to geometry and that's extremely important. My SC handles extremely well, in fact i think it's near perfect, not sure about other bikes with 1000Wh that weigh similarly, if they exist.
If i didn't see any details about new designs i would be completely content

 

[webcurl]

Something not mentioned in this discussion about the battery is the geometry of the frame. Adding 67mm to a frame which already tends to be larger is not a good thing for accessibility. Adding this 67mm would add to the already talk standover and make the bikes reach longer. I do think we will eventually see larger batteries in the same form factor as the 500Wh. The 625Wh could have been the same size if Bosch waited another year, but this industry is moving so quickly and they didn’t want to lag behind.

I should also mention that Bosch has said publicly that they will continue to support their products for at least seven years after they stop manufacturing.

Seven years is absolutely massive in this fast moving industry, how long has the car industry being going for to develop it's consistency, not to mention the non electric bicycle industry (and how reliable is that?), oh, and how expensive were initial quality cars and bicycles?

 

[Johnny]

RM just like any other brand name bicycle company mixes and matches components from well known manufacturers and servicing them by DIY, other than the motor/battery, should be no different. The luxury vehicle analogy is not a valid one, RM is mostly a frame manufacturer like the other big brands.

So if you want better capacity and the newer lighter Bosch motor then wait else go ahead.


On a side note, in terms of battery I don't think Bosch ever cared about backwards compatibility, the only reason why there is a 500wh battery is because 18650 cell manufacturers managed to increase cell capacity from 2.6 to 3.4-3.5, they(Bosch) just switched the cells. If they did not lock their BMS and let bike manufacturers customize their offerings we would have seen higher capacity offerings from bicycle manufacturers already. These kinds of business decision may backfire.

 

[webcurl]

RM just like any other brand name bicycle company mixes and matches components from well known manufacturers and servicing them by DIY, other than the motor/battery, should be no different. The luxury vehicle analogy is not a valid one, RM is mostly a frame manufacturer like the other big brands.

So if you want better capacity and the newer lighter Bosch motor then wait else go ahead.


On a side note, in terms of battery I don't think Bosch ever cared about backwards compatibility, the only reason why there is a 500wh battery is because 18650 cell manufacturers managed to increase cell capacity from 2.6 to 3.4-3.5, they(Bosch) just switched the cells. If they did not lock their BMS and let bike manufacturers customize their offerings we would have seen higher capacity offerings from bicycle manufacturers already. These kinds of business decision may backfire.

An analogy for the lock down scenario is Apple computers, it didn't backfire for them, it made them, and believe me i'm no Apple fanboy.
When it comes to an ebike i chose R&M because it seemed to be a thing that would just work as i'm no bike mechanic, like what made Apple popular.
And i believe Bosch's Powerpack 300 has been around for 6 years? and is still available?
I do have my frustrations though as evident in:
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/bosch-solar-charging.26290/

But with R&M being mostly a frame maker can you tell me where else at the end of the year i can get something similar to what could very well be a dream bike for me:
2020 R&M SuperDelite Mountain Rohloff with GX option:
New Bosch CX, full fox suspension with up to 140mm travel, Rohloff, Gates belt, Fat Tire?, Internal frame batteries - 1000Wh, dropper post, front & rear rack.
That to me seems like a luxury vehicle for offroad touring and anything else.

 

[Johnny]

An analogy for the lock down scenario is Apple computers, it didn't backfire for them, it made them, and believe me i'm no Apple fanboy.
When it comes to an ebike i chose R&M because it seemed to be a thing that would just work as i'm no bike mechanic, like what made Apple popular.
And i believe Bosch's Powerpack 300 has been around for 6 years? and is still available?
I do have my frustrations though as evident in:
https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/bosch-solar-charging.26290/

But with R&M being mostly a frame maker can you tell me where else at the end of the year i can get something similar to what could very well be a dream bike for me:
2020 R&M SuperDelite Mountain Rohloff with GX option:
New Bosch CX, full fox suspension with up to 140mm travel, Rohloff, Gates belt, Fat Tire?, Internal frame batteries - 1000Wh, dropper post, front & rear rack.
That to me seems like a luxury vehicle for offroad touring and anything else.

First of all I am not trying to bash R&M, they have nice bikes and I believe the owners of RM bikes are happy. Also for a FS rohloff ebike they are probably the only choice.

However your analogy is incorrect.

Most of the car manufacturers design their own in house engines, transmissions and other drive train components and those components make a huge difference.

While a budget brand like Toyota offers a 150hp 1.6-2.0 liter fuel efficient motor, front wheel drive and a cheaper transmission, the upper level Mercedes will give you a 4.0liter turbo V8 producing 500+hp, a dual clutch transmission on a sporty rear wheel drive. That is A LOT of difference(both are great companies designing great vehicles for different markets).

In your analogy the only thing Mercedes does would be to slap in the low power Toyota engine and transmission on a front wheel chassis and putting in leather seats. Sorry it is much more than that.

RM uses Bosch system that you can find on many much cheaper bikes. The Rohloff with belt drive is also not something that they developed or manufacture? They are not the only ones using fat tires or Fox suspension ? In tube batteries are used by many manufacturers and they are Bosch's standardized batteries ? These things are the analogs of drive train components that companies like Mercedes actually make or heavily modify before using in their vehicles (not the tires).

Yes their Rohloff FS bikes are nice but their only contribution is the frame for fitting the belt drive. Other than that all of the major bicycle manufacturers have very solid FS designs featuring Bosch system which are just as good if not better.

RM and other so called luxury bicycle makers are not Mercedes nor Toyota. They are more like custom, boutique car makers that mostly design the chassis.

Sorry there has to be a line between marketing and reality and this so called luxury car perception is too much of a marketing for me.

 

[webcurl]

First of all I am not trying to bash R&M, they have nice bikes and I believe the owners of RM bikes are happy. Also for a FS rohloff ebike they are probably the only choice.

However your analogy is incorrect.

Most of the car manufacturers design their own in house engines, transmissions and other drive train components and those components make a huge difference.

While a budget brand like Toyota offers a 150hp 1.6-2.0 liter fuel efficient motor, front wheel drive and a cheaper transmission, the upper level Mercedes will give you a 4.0liter turbo V8 producing 500+hp, a dual clutch transmission on a sporty rear wheel drive. That is A LOT of difference(both are great companies designing great vehicles for different markets).

In your analogy the only thing Mercedes does would be to slap in the low power Toyota engine and transmission on a front wheel chassis and putting in leather seats. Sorry it is much more than that.

RM uses Bosch system that you can find on many much cheaper bikes. The Rohloff with belt drive is also not something that they developed or manufacture? They are not the only ones using fat tires or Fox suspension ? In tube batteries are used by many manufacturers and they are Bosch's standardized batteries ? These things are the analogs of drive train components that companies like Mercedes actually make or heavily modify before using in their vehicles (not the tires).

Yes their Rohloff FS bikes are nice but their only contribution is the frame for fitting the belt drive. Other than that all of the major bicycle manufacturers have very solid FS designs featuring Bosch system which are just as good if not better.

RM and other so called luxury bicycle makers are not Mercedes nor Toyota. They are more like custom, boutique car makers that mostly design the chassis.

Sorry there has to be a line between marketing and reality and this so called luxury car perception is too much of a marketing for me.

I repeat:
Can you tell me where else at the end of the year i can get something similar to what could very well be a dream bike for me:
2020 R&M SuperDelite Mountain Rohloff with GX option:
New Bosch CX, full fox suspension with up to 140mm travel, Rohloff, Gates belt, Fat Tire?, Internal frame batteries - 1000Wh, dropper post, front & rear rack.

 

[Johnny]

I repeat:
Can you tell me where else at the end of the year i can get something similar to what could very well be a dream bike for me:
2020 R&M SuperDelite Mountain Rohloff with GX option:
New Bosch CX, full fox suspension with up to 140mm travel, Rohloff, Gates belt, Fat Tire?, Internal frame batteries - 1000Wh, dropper post, front & rear rack.

I believe I have expressed my thoughts well. The argument is not about your dream custom build. Someone may want 29+ tires with pike as the front fork or a mid step, a TQ motor with 120nm torque ... That has nothing to do with the incorrect "Mercedes and Toyota" analogy.

Enjoy your "dream" build.

 

[webcurl]

I believe I have expressed my thoughts well. The argument is not about your dream custom build. Someone may want 29+ tires with pike as the front fork or a mid step, a TQ motor with 120nm torque ... That has nothing to do with the incorrect "Mercedes and Toyota" analogy.

Enjoy your "dream" build.

The original topic is "Talk me into/Out of a Delite GX HS", is there a comparable bike out there? Does anyone have any examples as i'd like to know of any brands doing similar things to R&M's Delite too.

 

[smorgasbord]

The original topic is "Talk me into/Out of a Delite GX HS", is there a comparable bike out there?

I'm the OP - thanks, all this has been a great thread. I've decided that the Delite, while a great bike in many ways, was not designed for me and the kind of riding I expect to do. I won't be commuting or doing multi-day expeditions. I need a lighter bike, since I'll often be loading onto a hitch-mounted bike rack to drive to places to ride. While the Rohloff is great in some ways, it's lacking in others - at least in my eyes - and for me the main reason for the Rohloff would be to get the Gates belt. The new Bosch motors seem like they're going to be great (lighter, stronger, no resistance once they stop assisting, etc.), and the integrated batteries help make the bike look like something worth $8K+ instead of the current "bike kit" look.

My current thoughts on what I should be getting are in this thread. I haven't given up on full suspension, but I want a carbon frame for weight and "feel," and I believe I can get away with a seat post mounted rack since I won't be carrying much weight on it.

 

[ebikecargo]

Yeah... lol.. same here although I am longing for the Load 75 Rohloff HS, my Supercharger is totally awesome but now and then I'd like to carry more stuff than I can with pannier bags.. so enter the idea to commute with the cruise ship called Load 75.



It's a GPS tracking service although it's only available in a very few countries, maybe Germany only. It's a complete package with GPS tracking, phone app and insurance (!!), if I recall correct you get a new bike if it gets stolen irrecoverably. So it's more than a piece of hardware, it's a service and thus needs to be negotiated with insurance companies and mobile data carriers in the countries it would need to be enabled in.

Hi Tompat,
check out these pannier boxes

 

[smorgasbord]

OK, so the Super Delite's are almost available to order.
The two versions I'd be interested in are the Superdelite GT rohloff HS* and Superdelite GT touring. I'd take the touring and upgrade to SRAM Eagle cassette (10-50 12 speed) with the money saved. Of course, I really would like the Gates belt.

The HS motor from Bosch (2020) supposedly puts out 75 Nm, so no sacrificing torque to get the higher top speed. And with the motor not fighting me above that, I'd be satisfied even without de-restricting.

How much does this thing weight without batteries?

I probably would pass on the GX option and just put Smart Sam tires with an aftermarket dropper post instead (especially since the R&M dropper post requires pressure on the pedals to operate).

What options should I do for rear/front racks? I'm not commuting, but do want to carry some stuff (not heavy, panniers not required).
Thanks!