Still searching for the perfect ultra-light ebike kit for road bikes — here’s the idea in my head

[Catalyzt]

I don't know if @Katrina92 is still around, but there is a Kickstarter project for a Superbike weighing less than 20 lbs. Apparently, they will achieve this low weight by making it all carbon fiber with a small hub motor and small integrated battery. Not my cup of tea, but this may be the way to get below 20 lbs on an ebike. I am not endorsing this project at all. Just posting the link for the community's information.

The main reason I joined this forum was because in 2021 I stumbled across an Indiegogo project for (I think) a 39 pound aluminum hardtail for about $1,700. I think it was called Avarax.

I came SO close to buying it. My finger hovered over the 'buy' button for weeks. It was a very convincing project with a great website that showed bikes being assembled in the factory. They listed all the parts! And the physics almost checked out...

But not quite. I spent hours and hours adding up the numbers and looking at the costs, and finally realized: Not quite. This bike could not exist for this price.

Then I looked at the reviews for Indiegogo itself. I know lots of people will disagree with me, but I think the platform is, basically, a scam, and so is Kickstarter. They shouldn't be allowed to exist, or not to market directly to consumers. Just because some of the projects make it to market does not excuse having such a large percentage of revenue come from brazen thievery.

Of course, the bike did not exist. No bikes were ever delivered or ever existed. A Facebook group formed for disgruntled buyers and I followed it for months. Seems like about 20-30% of the buyers got some money back from their credit card companies, the rest were just out of luck.

 

[PedalUma]

Stripping away redundancy in the name of efficiency has a certain ideological appeal. But there is a practical reason aircraft have redundant systems: Back-ups of back-ups with a little added weight and some inefficiency. I do not want the lightest tires and fewest spokes, the lightest chain, or frame, or motor.

 

[PedalUma]

Another thing is where you ride. If that is not bike conducive, the bike may not be used much. I ride daily all year.
https://weatherspark.com/y/619/Average-Weather-in-Petaluma-California-United-States-Year-Round. Late afternoons and nights are cool all Summer. Winter is a green flowering extended Spring. Technical aspects matter less when you can ride more.

Petaluma Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (California, United States) - Weather Spark

In Petaluma, the summers are long, warm, arid, and mostly clear and the winters are short, cold, wet, and partly cloudy. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 39°F to 83°F and is rarely below 30°F or above 93°F.

weatherspark.com

Climate and Average Weather Year Round in Petaluma California, United States​

In Petaluma, the summers are long, warm, arid, and mostly clear and the winters are short, cold, wet, and partly cloudy. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 39°F to 83°F and is rarely below 30°F or above 93°F.

 

[jabberwocky]

Then I looked at the reviews for Indiegogo itself. I know lots of people will disagree with me, but I think the platform is, basically, a scam, and so is Kickstarter. They shouldn't be allowed to exist, or not to market directly to consumers. Just because some of the projects make it to market does not excuse having such a large percentage of revenue come from brazen thievery.

Kickstarter/Indiegogo have their place, but I would always be extremely skeptical of any crowdfunding campaign that is basically "we, a small company you've never heard of, will totally be releasing a product that is better then [every product from large established companies with decades of experience] for [price that is less than anything on the market]. Hard to say if its a scam or just people completely in over their heads, but either way its generally not a wise bet. IMO. Its your money, I suppose.

Crowdfunding sites ethical failure is they make it real easy to think you're purchasing a product, just in advance. You aren't. You're investing in a startup. And many (most?) startups fail.

 

[stompandgo]

The only product I've invested in via crowdfunding was the original Cycliq Fly6. It had plenty of issues during the beta, with terrible support, but they eventually made most of the promised features work successfully. I rode with it until the internal battery died, then upgraded to the Fly6 CE, which I currently use. They never got the Garmin Light Network (automatic start and stop) to work correctly. Otherwise, the video is crisp, the lights are bright, and it runs for quite a while. I don't think I'll ever take that risk again, though.

 

[Catalyzt]

Kickstarter/Indiegogo have their place, but I would always be extremely skeptical of any crowdfunding campaign that is basically "we, a small company you've never heard of, will totally be releasing a product that is better then [every product from large established companies with decades of experience] for [price that is less than anything on the market]. Hard to say if its a scam or just people completely in over their heads, but either way its generally not a wise bet. IMO. Its your money, I suppose.

Crowdfunding sites ethical failure is they make it real easy to think you're purchasing a product, just in advance. You aren't. You're investing in a startup. And many (most?) startups fail.

Your take on this is more level-headed than mine. That's exactly it-- if it were clearer you were investing in a startup, that would level the playing field a bit more. I also think that Indiegogo and KS could be more proactive about flagging high-risk projects or potential scams.

 

[kevinmccune]

No need to wait. No need for small hub motor anymore either. The new TQ40 mid drive just released at Eurobike last week, is already on a Canyon Endurace ONfly weighing just over 21lbs. Full name the Endurace ONfly SUB 10 (for under 10kg). 40nm, 290wh battery:

Endurace:ONfly SUB-10

The world’s most advanced e-road bike Elite SUB-10 kg overall weight Natural-feeling motor support, road bike aesthetics Featherweight components, world-class carbon Special superlight high-vis artwork, integrated lighting

www.canyon.com

the trouble is you can get a very light bafang 250 watt front wheel for peanuts these days and at 40 NM torque,its simply cheap and not bad.

 

[kevinmccune]

Stripping away redundancy in the name of efficiency has a certain ideological appeal. But there is a practical reason aircraft have redundant systems: Back-ups of back-ups with a little added weight and some inefficiency. I do not want the lightest tires and fewest spokes, the lightest chain, or frame, or motor.

View attachment 196222

my thoughts exactly,now that being said I believe a carbon frame bike with the frame forming part of the battery is feasible.

 

[kevinmccune]

Another thing is where you ride. If that is not bike conducive, the bike may not be used much. I ride daily all year.
https://weatherspark.com/y/619/Average-Weather-in-Petaluma-California-United-States-Year-Round. Late afternoons and nights are cool all Summer. Winter is a green flowering extended Spring. Technical aspects matter less when you can ride more.

Petaluma Climate, Weather By Month, Average Temperature (California, United States) - Weather Spark

In Petaluma, the summers are long, warm, arid, and mostly clear and the winters are short, cold, wet, and partly cloudy. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 39°F to 83°F and is rarely below 30°F or above 93°F.

weatherspark.com

Climate and Average Weather Year Round in Petaluma California, United States​

In Petaluma, the summers are long, warm, arid, and mostly clear and the winters are short, cold, wet, and partly cloudy. Over the course of the year, the temperature typically varies from 39°F to 83°F and is rarely below 30°F or above 93°F.

View attachment 196223View attachment 196224
View attachment 196225

dang,a bikers wet dream!

 

[PedalUma]

dang,a bikers wet dream!

For a cyclist I have it pretty good. Also everything grows here. I bit off half a dried fig and put the other half in the ground. Now I have a fig tree. We also have things such as redwoods. The down side is for people with allergies. Again, because everything they are allergic to also grows here.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

the trouble is you can get a very light bafang 250 watt front wheel for peanuts these days and at 40 NM torque,its simply cheap and not bad.

Do people actually ride bikes with front motors? They always seemed an odd throwback & a bit dangerous with the weight positioned there. Feels odd the power not coming through the pedals. But to each their own. And obviously the market for lightweight e road bikes will be different to front hub bikes.

 

[Base]

Frontwheel motor e-bikes where common goods in the days that e-bikes were very expensive. You see them a lot on the street here as cheap dutch style bikes which basicly are "analog"/traditional dutch-style bikes where the OEM just had to through a battery compatible rack and a fork which would be fit for a motor. And these Dutch-style bikes already are almost at EN15194 standard so it would be easy to arry an E and a non E version bike based on the same platform, so rather cheap solution.

We also have seen that the midrange e-bikes made a shift from frontwheel motors to rearwheel motor or middrive systems.

 

[PedalUma]

Do people actually ride bikes with front motors? They always seemed an odd throwback & a bit dangerous with the weight positioned there. Feels odd the power not coming through the pedals. But to each their own. And obviously the market for lightweight e road bikes will be different to front hub bikes.

It was a thing here in Nor Cal about five years ago. Lightweight road bikes with front hub motors. They were often used by tour companies in the wine country and on the coast. We have big hills. I never got it. And yes, front hub motors are dumb. A guy had a $10,000 Lynskey with one. It looked like a goofy chimera, like maybe a duck with an alligator's head. Those ones had Canadian made modular batteries in triangle top tube packs. The modules could be magnetically unstacked so they could legally go on a plane.

 

[kevinmccune]

Do people actually ride bikes with front motors? They always seemed an odd throwback & a bit dangerous with the weight positioned there. Feels odd the power not coming through the pedals. But to each their own. And obviously the market for lightweight e road bikes will be different to front hub bikes.

I have built two 36 volt front wheel drive bikes and they performed well,500 watts just don't go silly with the power,strangely enough they pulled very well on steep dirt roads.

 

[PedalUma]

Off topic. I just got motors and started to work on a cargo conversion. The bike has Deore two-piece cranks and it takes a proprietary tool called a BBT 10.2 to remove them. I don't want to wait. So, I was able to use the handle of a toenail clipper instead.

 

[Base]

A hollowtech central tool? Arent those with the cupwrench? I got a few and they were part of the tool set, do cup wrench and plastic tools for the central bolt.

The first few i ran into in my home office

I think the Shimano part was tlfc16 or in that range.

My brain....

 

[PedalUma]

The motor is in! I will need to splice in wire length because the cargo bike is so long to extend the speed sensor. Then I will need to triple stack wheel magnets in epoxy and shrink tube because the stays are so wide. It is an Xtracycle that had a Bionx. I once made a fishing lure from a worn toenail clipper. I removed the handle and had treble hooks at the narrow end and a ring in front. I use them on zip ties to get it flush.

 

[kevinmccune]

funny you should mention fishing lures,we used to have a cheap looking thingy on the vendors "lure cards" called a "golden canary" fish from all different types of water was crazy about that thing.any fish would hit it,availible in the 1960s never been able to find them since( are you modifying motor magnets? hotrodding for sure!)

 

[kevinmccune]

Frontwheel motor e-bikes where common goods in the days that e-bikes were very expensive. You see them a lot on the street here as cheap dutch style bikes which basicly are "analog"/traditional dutch-style bikes where the OEM just had to through a battery compatible rack and a fork which would be fit for a motor. And these Dutch-style bikes already are almost at EN15194 standard so it would be easy to arry an E and a non E version bike based on the same platform, so rather cheap solution.

We also have seen that the midrange e-bikes made a shift from frontwheel motors to rearwheel motor or middrive systems.

it was easy to convert stock bikes like this to a front wheel setup,worked fine on streets with gentle gradients.

 

[kevinmccune]

Do people actually ride bikes with front motors? They always seemed an odd throwback & a bit dangerous with the weight positioned there. Feels odd the power not coming through the pedals. But to each their own. And obviously the market for lightweight e road bikes will be different to front hub bikes.

it actually gave you an "AWD" of sorts,I have noticed a lot of the trikes are fwd as are most cars these days( back in the day I could get an F100 with the one wheel drive places were most people with fwd were getting stuck,a note on fwd in the snow-if it wont go forward up the hill,turn it around and back up the hill. You want to see fun,watch the guys with lockers on glare ice.