Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

Precisely. And even those people only do it all geared up with a niche enthusiast bike, shoes and underwear, steps which 95%+ of people will never take, they aren't doing it on their grocery runs with saddlebags in tow.

A lot of people have this fatal inability to see how something being merely possible (but rare) and probable makes all the difference. Even engineers evidently lol.
So let me see if I understand your arguments. Regardless of what the historical average rider data shows on bikes speeds or what the best riders have the capability of doing we should just accept what a few advocacy group employees (that don't even understand the tech) thought was better than a federal definition that was written by a PhD electrical engineer.

The main aspects of the petition are centered on the impact to instate commerce. If the preemption happens the federal definition will likely by default become the state definition again and the assist capability will be pretty much what a class 3 provides. Let's not make that out to be a problem.
 
The Federal stuff is off limits as well.I have talked to the Rangers in the Government office and wrote a letter to the head of operations.
Ebikes fine where other motorized vehicles are allowed, Hiking and horse trails NO!( ever seen how much damage Horses can do to land? Makes absolutely no sense to me and they will not even allow human powered MTBs on some fire trails.
I tried to get permission to help create some MTB trails, to no avail, I have basically given up.
Yeah, its a struggle. Some of my MTB advocacy friends are starting to wonder if they should start looking at pushing for ebike access, but I think most of them are taking a wait-and-see approach to how some of the federal agencies handle things first (none of them personally ride ebikes). MDs state stuff isn't on board yet either, but there isn't as much trail on state land in the DC region of MD (mainly the Frederick Watershed, which is owned by the city of Frederick but managed by the MD DNR, and adjacent Gambrill State Park which is MD DNR). NOVA parks allowed class 1s a year or two ago and it seems to be going well. Same with Montgomery county in MD which oversees all the MoCo epic trails. I see a lot out there, for sure.

The domino I'd love to see fall is the US Forest Service, because the GW national forest has some amazing trail that I've ridden for years on my normal mtb that would be super fun on the EMTB. I think that one is gonna be a while yet.
 
"Let's let everyone ride like an Olympic cyclist at his absolute peak sprint, everywhere all the time, that changes nothing!"

Your posts are a nonstop cesspool of misunderstanding and obtuseness.

Come on He toasted the bread, as a sub 100 watt-rider I think He did great!
 
I actually tested my class 3 against some popular local strava segments (recreated as ebike segments) back when I first got it, and my times would have easily taken a KOM on every one of them without even using max assist. Some of them have thousands of riders and the leaderboard is full of extremely fast and fit locals.
That sounds like a good thing to me. If ebikes are to reach their full urban mobility potential their average speeds have to be compelling enough to convince at least some people out of their cars. I think speed pedelecs are fast enough to do that but probably not the Class 1/2 assist limit ebikes.
 
So let me see if I understand your arguments. Regardless of what the historical average rider data shows on bikes speeds or what the best riders have the capability of doing we should just accept what a few advocacy group employees (that don't even understand the tech) thought was better than a federal definition that was written by a PhD electrical engineer.

The main aspects of the petition are centered on the impact to instate commerce. If the preemption happens the federal definition will likely by default become the state definition again and the assist capability will be pretty much what a class 3 provides. Let's not make that out to be a problem.
Lol historical average rider data is great! But you keep citing the 99.7%+ percentile of riders (three sigma)!! What a fabulous 🤡 show you're putting on. Since you're concerned about urban mobility, typical average bike speeds in cities with mass cycling is 10-15 mph. Eg green waves tuned to 20 kph.

So when you say best rider, is that with or without doping? :) why not pick a cheetah as reference, if we're talking about the 'best' and 'fastest'? A cheetah has only slightly less relevance than using the fastest man on the planet - at least there's more cheetahs in that comparison.
 
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Lol historical average rider data is great! But you keep citing the 99.7%+ percentile of riders (three sigma)!! What a fabulous 🤡 show you're putting on. Since you're concerned about urban mobility, typical average bike speeds in cities with mass cycling is 10-15 mph. Eg green waves tuned to 20 kph.

So when you say best rider, is that with or without doping? :) why not pick a cheetah as reference, if we're talking about the 'best' and 'fastest'?
No the 3-sigma data I mentioned was a speed point that 99.7% of all riders have ridden at on a bike, not what .3% of riders are capable of. I'm not putting on a show by show support for the 2002 federal definition which was acceptable at the time to just be consider a bike. The average speeds you just referenced prove that no bikers ride at top possible speed all the time.
 
That sounds like a good thing to me. If ebikes are to reach their full urban mobility potential their average speeds have to be compelling enough to convince at least some people out of their cars. I think speed pedelecs are fast enough to do that but probably not the Class 1/2 assist limit ebikes.
I actually completely agree that class 3s are great if you primarily ride on roads. I sure wish I had my Revolt on my old commute. When my wife was shopping for a bike for riding gravel around here I insisted on class 3 since we frequently jog on fairly fast roads to connect things, and being able to push the speed up helps considerably.

Where things get a little dicey is infrastructure that was designed for non-motorized bikes. Class 1s are gonna bring average speeds up, but probably not to a level thats massively different conflict/safety wise. Class 3s, eh, can't say the same. I actually feel like mine is too fast for most MUPs (I live very close to the W&OD, which is a very nice MUP thats probably about as safe as MUPs get for higher speed bikes and even there I feel marginal on my Revolt; sometimes it just feels just too fast). A lot of non-road paths just aren't good fits for something as fast as my Revolt is (even the W&OD closer to DC where its more heavily trafficked, I'd feel unsafe at the speeds the Revolt easily reaches). Narrower paths like, say, the Mt Vernon or the Capital Crescent, its totally understandable to not want class 3 bikes on them. And mountainbike trails, definitely not.

Which is why its nice to have some differentiation between ebike classes. It lets class 3 exist for anywhere normal motor vehicles go, but you have lower speed options you can push for in places where that sort of speed isn't appropriate (or, if nothing else, gives you something you can push for to get your foot in the door if you think class 3 is fine but existing stakeholders don't). Often thats how progress goes. Push for part of what you want to start, and once its been accepted for a while and things are going well you can build on that and come back and push for more.

I've always seen the 3 classes as:
-Class 1: These should be acceptable everywhere a normal bike is acceptable.
-Class 2: Urban mobility; same assist as class 1 but allow throttle, intended for use in built up areas with lots of bike infra for utilitarian use.
-Class 3: Maximum assist for road riding, maybe some bike infra where appropriate, gives us something for people who want to ride roads and go faster without having to force high speeds on everyone who wants to allow ebikes.

We can argue about the exact cutoffs/power limits/throttle allowed or not/etc all day, but I do think theres a certain logic to the system as described. And the US system is (AFAIK) the least restrictive system under widespread adoption for power limits and cutoff speeds.
 
I actually completely agree that class 3s are great if you primarily ride on roads. I sure wish I had my Revolt on my old commute. When my wife was shopping for a bike for riding gravel around here I insisted on class 3 since we frequently jog on fairly fast roads to connect things, and being able to push the speed up helps considerably.

Where things get a little dicey is infrastructure that was designed for non-motorized bikes. Class 1s are gonna bring average speeds up, but probably not to a level thats massively different conflict/safety wise. Class 3s, eh, can't say the same. I actually feel like mine is too fast for most MUPs (I live very close to the W&OD, which is a very nice MUP thats probably about as safe as MUPs get for higher speed bikes and even there I feel marginal on my Revolt; sometimes it just feels just too fast). A lot of non-road paths just aren't good fits for something as fast as my Revolt is (even the W&OD closer to DC where its more heavily trafficked, I'd feel unsafe at the speeds the Revolt easily reaches). Narrower paths like, say, the Mt Vernon or the Capital Crescent, its totally understandable to not want class 3 bikes on them. And mountainbike trails, definitely not.

Which is why its nice to have some differentiation between ebike classes. It lets class 3 exist for anywhere normal motor vehicles go, but you have lower speed options you can push for in places where that sort of speed isn't appropriate (or, if nothing else, gives you something you can push for to get your foot in the door if you think class 3 is fine but existing stakeholders don't). Often thats how progress goes. Push for part of what you want to start, and once its been accepted for a while and things are going well you can build on that and come back and push for more.

I've always seen the 3 classes as:
-Class 1: These should be acceptable everywhere a normal bike is acceptable.
-Class 2: Urban mobility; same assist as class 1 but allow throttle, intended for use in built up areas with lots of bike infra for utilitarian use.
-Class 3: Maximum assist for road riding, maybe some bike infra where appropriate, gives us something for people who want to ride roads and go faster without having to force high speeds on everyone who wants to allow ebikes.

We can argue about the exact cutoffs/power limits/throttle allowed or not/etc all day, but I do think theres a certain logic to the system as described. And the US system is (AFAIK) the least restrictive system under widespread adoption for power limits and cutoff speeds.
I understand but is class differentiation for a throttle-assist & 8mph differences really essential other than giving some people a warm and fuzzy feeling. Have you noticed that some brands have released multi-mode models that are CPSC compliant (legal for sale for sure) but ??? as to whether 3-class compliant. I always remind everyone having the capability to ride at 28mph doesn't mean a rider will always be going that speed (bike riders always ride per the conditions because they are the most likely to get injured/killed if they have an accident...not that accident don't happen).

I do want you/everyone to understand my petition is entirely based on the apparent impact on interstate commerce. The 3-class system does require multiple elements to be on the ebike prior to entry into interstate commerce and states DO NOT possess that right except under very unique situations. I did not write the laws and I believe PFBs and the states should have known better but that doesn't mean the petition will result is preemption of 3-class. I believe it will given the precedence and the explicit preemption clause in HR727 it will result in preemption (I think only if the states were already actively working with the CPSC will it not be preempted and I could not find any evidence they had even requested an advisory request). I can't force people to review these things but I encourage anyone interested in what the possible impact on ebike regulations will be to just do a bit of research or at least read my petition. My agenda is not hidden or sneaky - I just asked the CPSC to review and make a decision (I don't think they get involved unless someone files a petition as such but it was likely inevitable...eventually someone supporting 3-class would have been required to file a "petition for exception" to get the 2002 definition changed to the 3-class system as PFBs says was their ultimate goal in that video).

I knew when I filed and made this public there wold be the normal attack the messenger type of responses. Most ebike riders will just ignore it all together until maybe it does result in preemption at which everyone that owns an ebike in the 28 states impacted will wonder what happened. Most citizens don't know there is/was a federal ebike definition and certainly don't know much about the history of the safety agencies and why they have preemptive power over something like the 3-class legislation.
 
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I’m releasing this statement to inform the media, industry and consumers that I have filed a “petition for preemption” with the CPSC regarding the “3-Class” E-Bike state legislation. If the petition is determined to have legal merit by CPSC General Counsel, the 3-Class legislation adopted by 26 states will likely have no legal standing. This will result in reactionary required legislative corrections, but all currently compliant ebikes will continue to be regulatory and use compliant so the impact to the industry and consumers will be negligible.

The motivations were:
  • The opinion preemption was inevitable given the explicit/express preemption clause in HR727 - 3-Class was more stringent than the CPSC definition, it impacted interstate commerce & was simply not about improving safety (the primary motive was EU harmonization).
  • The opinion that the intent of the CPSC definition was to ensure that a “low speed electric bicycle” is the equivalent of a bike for “use” by all states.
  • Respect for what I felt was a technically astute and visionary federal CPSC definition that had the intent of maximizing the adoption potential for E-Bikes as an effective urban mobility solution.
Low speed electric bicycles (LSEB) are subjected to the same consumer product regulations as non electric bicycles. A majority of states have essentially adopted this definition for “use” regulation as a bicycle (For example, the Mississippi Attorney General came to this conclusion after review of the statutes). The federal definition adopted in 2002 stated LSEBs to be non-motorized vehicles, so dividing classes based on motor performance is illogical. Interstate commerce and all riders will benefit from one regulatory definition for LSEBs with them “use” regulated as a “bicycle” by all states.

Following is the document content of the petition for preemption submitted to the CPSC. I encourage anyone interested or concerned to read it and form their own opinion.


Formal CPSC Petition

I am formally petitioning the Commission to exercise a preemptive decision. This is a commission request to assess what clearly appears to be a regulatory conflict and/or overlap and provide a statement on CPSC “low speed electric bicycle” (LSEB / ebike) statute/definition standing vs the 3-class legislation adopted or being adopted by some states. It is my understanding this is a consumer right and to my knowledge there was no petition or advisory position request made by any state prior to adopting 3-Class legislation even though it has the effect of setting multiple requirements which a bicycle must meet at the time it enters interstate commerce that are not CPSC requirements. Objectively, this situation demands a preemptive decision and a formal position statement by the Commission.

CPSC LSEB Federal Statute & State ebike 3-Class Legislation Detail

Per CPSC Federal Law 16 C.F.R. Part 1512, the term `low-speed electric bicycle' means a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.

Note: Per CPSC clarification, this definition limits dynamic power that a LSEB drive system (motor alone) can provide - technically limits motor power above 20mph per the maximum sustained speed, nominal rider weight, and level surface constraints. It does not provide a maximum assisted speed for when a LSEB is being powered by a combination of human and motor power as the speed-based power limit effectively limits maximum speed via physical limits of human power to ensure traditional maximum bike speed essentially unchanged.

Per 3-class state law, an “Electric bicycle” shall mean a bicycle equipped with fully operable pedals, a saddle or seat for the rider, and an electric motor of less than 750 watts that meets the requirements of one of the following three classes:
(a) “Class 1 electric bicycle” shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(b) “Class 2 electric bicycle” shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour.
(c) “Class 3 electric bicycle” shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour (this is not outside common road bike speeds).

Note: All adopting states have included a class specific label requirement and some adopted the requirement for a speedometer on Class 3 electric bicycles.

Per a casual review, these may seem consistent but the 3-class legislation requires class specific microprocessor controller programming for the cease of assist function, class specific labeling, and a speedometer on class 3 ebikes, each of which has the effect of setting a requirement which a bicycle must meet at the time it enters interstate commerce that is not required by the CPSC. Clearly this is state legislative over-reach given CPSC’s regulatory authority. In the federal statute there is not a speed-based cease of assist required (maximum speed is regulated via a power limit constraint at 20mph which is intuitively more safe), no class specific labeling, or speedometer requirement. Effectively, the adopting states are using an altered federal law definition as an element of state “use” regulation on a product - addresses the same safety elements but is NOT identical.

Clear Precedence Exists

Interestingly, Commission precedent is clearly implied on a decision where preemption was actually not exercised when an advisory opinion was requested in mid-1978 on state(s) requiring bicycle lighting when riding at night…

Per CPSC records….
“Our [September 12] opinion should have included some additional discussion about the preemption question that your letter raised. The requirement you described, for lighting on bicycles ridden at night, is clearly one which defines how a consumer must use a bicycle. In contrast, the Commission's regulation sets requirements which a bicycle must meet when introduced into interstate commerce. Because the Commission's regulation does not define how a consumer may or may not use a bicycle, the Commission believes that the Federal Hazardous Substances Act does not prohibit states or localities from issuing or enforcing a requirement that lighting be used on bicycles ridden at night. Please note that this advice concerning a "use" requirement is based on an assumption. For the purpose of answering your question, we have assumed that the state or local requirement would not have the effect of setting any requirement which a bicycle must meet at the time it enters interstate commerce.”

Clearly implied is that preemption would have been exercised if the states required lighting at the time a bike enters interstate commerce. States are claiming the 3-class law is “use” only legislation but it requires the class programming, labeling, and speedometer to be implemented at the time the ebike enters interstate commerce. Preemption exists where a federal law expressly states it preempts state law as HR727 explicitly does state. Unquestionably, precedence exists to justify preemption decision.

Additional Support Information for Preemption Decision

I believe each of these itemized details alone is justification for a preemption decision, thus in total the legal basis is very robust (states will not challenge a preemption decision). I’ve detailed these to help with preemption justification.

  • HR 727 defining “low speed electric bicycle” has an explicit preemption statement. The 3-class legislation is more stringent while lacking any evidence it provides a level of added safety. In addition, it clearly addresses the same safety issues (power rating & assist speed) that are addressed by the CPSC LSEB definition & safety regulations. For 12+ years most states adopted the CPSC definition or less stringent as a basis for LSEB “use” equivalent as a bicycle and many states still do.
  • LSEBs that were compliant to CPSC definition and use were made illegal for use in states adopting the 3-class legislation. For example, the Polaris Diesel / PIM Archer has a throttle-assist drive system that provides CPSC compliant dynamic assist up to ~24mph but is no longer “use” compliant in any state that has adopted the 3-class legislation (throttle-assist LSEB must cease assist at 20mph). A CPSC compliant LSEB model (Izip Express) that was utilized by the Los Angeles police department is no longer “use” compliant in California or other 3-class states. Minnesota has banned use of Class 3 E-Bikes which are CPSC regulation compliant. Many other examples exist, yet the states consider 3-class legislation consistent with the CPSC definition/statute.
  • This should be a legislative alarm as H.R. 1019 is drafted such that a tax credit is tied to 3-class state law but this law does not control what is a compliant bike to be sold in the 50 states. Regulatory Capture!!
  • A bike advocacy organization, People for Bikes, was provided a lobby money budget to promote the 3-class legislation with a fairly obvious goal of US market harmonization with EU ebike regulations (i.e. promotion of the 3-class state legislation was not based on safety merit). This is documented in multiple YouTube videos and statements by People for Bikes representatives.
  • My understanding is that no state or People for Bikes has petitioned the Commission for preemption exemption or even requested an advisory opinion as they feel the 3-class is both consistent with the federal statute and is “use” specific. This is clearly a legislative capture agenda driven largely by a few large industry manufacturers who would benefit (a complex technical subject of its own). CPSC’s granted preemptive power was intended to prevent this.
  • The perception that the state 3-class legislation has legal standing is behind a new generation of E-Bikes that are state regulation compliant but provide more assist (power) above 20mph than the CPSC definition states (motor power alone limited to what can sustain a 170lb rider at 20mph). Note: there are some notable examples but I do not wish to judge this as acceptable practice or not in this petition request.
  • Some ebikes, including examples from top brands, have ignored the speedometer requirement even in the states that have adopted 3-class legislation. Clear confusion on legal standing exists and preemption would address this.
  • Many states still use the CPSC definition or less stringent regulation of ebike power and speed to “use” regulate LSEBs as bikes. In Mississippi, there is no clear designation for an electric bicycle as an attorney general opinion indicates that an electric bicycle would be considered a bicycle for use per statute review. While Kentucky also lacks a definition for e-bikes, the Department of Transportation passed an administrative regulation in 2015 that brought e-bikes within the scope of the state’s bicycle regulations. Every state usage law reviewed allows usage equality of Class 1 and 2. This is just a subset of the evidence that the state claims of 3-class legislation being necessary to clarify and improve “use” safety vs. the CPSC definition is not accurate. To my knowledge there has been no associated “use” safety issues documented by states using the CPSC federal LSEB definition or less stringent. I would also argue that the 3-class legislation has created significant more confusion and worse it’s seemingly unenforceable.
  • Congressional notes on HR727 indicate that the intent was for the definition of a “low speed electric bicycle” to be consistent with other bicycles. Also explicitly stated is that LSEB are not motor vehicles so state efforts to define as such by parsing motor assist performance into classes implies states legislatively insist they are motor vehicles. There is no evidence that states are addressing any tangible safety issues by not simply adopting the federal definition of a LSEBs as a bike (congressional notes indicate that was the intent of putting LSEBs under CPSC regulatory control).
  • Consumer confusion exists because in nearly half the states the federal definition for LSEBs has been adopted and they are “use” regulated as bikes. Many ebikes that are CPSC compliant are being sold in states where, per the 3-class legislation, these CPSC compliant ebikes are not legal for use on any public infrastructure. The confusion caused by the regulatory overlap was created when 3-class legislation started being adopted by states. People for Bikes claims it provides legislative clarity which is simply not accurate.
  • Per 3-class “model legislation” Class 3 ebikes are “use” allowed only on roads and roadside bike lanes. Interestingly this class can not have a throttle-assist system even though mopeds and motorcycles utilizing that same infrastructure are legally allowed to have throttles. This makes no common sense whatsoever and I would argue it actually puts consumers riding class 3 LSEBs at more risk. Class 3 designated solely as a harmonization placeholder to mimic EU speed pedelec ebikes.
  • Per 3-class adopted state use regulations, I could not find a single example of Class 1 and 2 ebikes being “use” regulated differently. Pretty solid additional proof this legislation was about harmonization and not safety.
  • The National Conference of State Legislatures (NCSL) website they detail the 3-class legislation (the motor power and 3 class tiers) and follow that by stating “Any device outside of these definitions is not considered a low-speed electric bicycle that would be regulated as a bicycle.” This shows clear confusion on bike safety regulations - states only have the right to regulate how bikes are “used.” Again legislative capture is taking place.
  • NY recently proposed (may have approved) legislation requiring class 3 ebikes to have a cease of assist at 25mph for legal use. The only way this is possible is for the manufacturers to produce a unique drive system program just for NY. This is a classic example of why CPSC was created to stop.

Supplemental Information

Given the environmental and health benefits that increased LSEB usage would provide to the country I think simple effective regulation of LSEBs should be considered very important. The best way to increase adoption is to have simple, safe, effective regulation at federal and state levels (the CPSC definition is actually technically very robust while not negatively impacting bicycle use safety). The original intent of HR727 giving jurisdiction of LSEB to the CPSC is/was clear - to have them compliance and “use” regulated as a bicycle (the Mississippi AG review of the statutes came to this conclusion and that’s the only formal state opinion I can find on this). Any historical assessment of the events behind the 3-class state legislation efforts proves it was not driven by a concern for safety - it was about US and EU market harmonization focused (the EU is now reviewing a 3rd round of ebike regulation changes so that is not something the CPSC should consider having merit). Interstate commerce benefited from one compliance definition for LSEBs and the intent to be “use” regulated as a “bicycle” - both consumers and manufacturers benefited. The safety outcome of the federal LSEB regulations is equivalent to other types of bicycles and states still have the full power to regulate bicycle usage but their efforts to legislate performance, labeling, and requirements of LSEBs should be preempted immediately before the market confusion just gets worse.
Well, who cares...

Everyone has a (hidden) agenda.


The whole ebike structure, the regulatory structure, is suspect, and it’s becoming counter productive, at best.

I used to ride my ebike, back in 2014. I liked riding on the bike paths, which are multi-purpose. There are a lot kids. It’s not a high speed environment. Back then, there were signs saying “No Motorized Vehicles”. People said that was not legally correct, because ebikes were not motorized vehicles. Objectively, they have a motor, but legally they don’t. All this really did was set in motion layers of rubbish.

Basically, an ebike is a bike. So, you are incentivized to call your motorized bike an ebike. Where is the bright red line? In California, the original ‘model’ law, a summary says “The bill would prohibit the operation of Class 3 bikes on specified paths, lanes, or trails…” So by definition a Class 3 is not an ebike where an ebike is a bike and can go where a bike can go.

There was always a single power limit for ebikes. Before explaining the difference between 1,2, and 3 the law says “An electric bicycle is a bicycle equipped with full operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.” Simple. That’s for all the classes, that 750 watts.
The law also says you have to limit the watts, and then certify the watts. Oh, well

In 2015 a 750 watt motor was about right. The batteries were 300 to 500 watt hours and expensive. You can’t run at 750 watts with that size of battery. You can, but not for very long. It doesn’t matter. They sell ebike on speed and the speed is what kills the range.

In the good old days of the 3 Class Ebike, you had 500 watt hour batteries that cost $750. I bought a battery that is 750 watt hours for $120, although it is Chinese with Chinese cells. If you are willing to spend $750 for a battery today, then what. I mean, you were paying $750 back then, so what does that money buy today? Well, probably at least 2 or 3 kwh. That’s great. I can ride forever. But, real world, putting 3 kwh of battery pack on a bike will add a lot of weight and bulk. And how much range do you need?

We are already at 90 pound ‘ebikes’ some with coil spring suspension, like a motorcycle. Trying to push this around with 750 watts of motor is going to be a chore. And yet, they will go on with calling it an ebike because the rules are so lax. And to handle the weight they will put 25 or 30 amp controllers on them, a sure sign they are above the watt limit (amps times volts).

I’m not going to discuss pedal assist because I dislike pedal assist. It’s like a really bad throttle when you could just twist and go. They aren’t more like bikes, to me.

The fact that batteries are getting so cheap means that what Sondors puts on the Meta-cycle (really?) is what you can do on any cheap cycle. He’s at 4 kwh. Even at suburban speeds, say 45 mph, that is a decent range. You can handle the wind and a hill or two. Sondor doesn’t call it an ebike, which is something. If people really want speed, I don’t know why $3000 small cycles with 5-8 kw motors don’t fill the need? Oh, because of the license and stuff. Still, at some point, you are not a bicycle. The law says 750 watts. A lot of companies say 2 or 3 thousand watts. To me, a motorcycle suspension is a better way to go at 45 mph. I’ll take a motorcycle tire. I’ll take a bigger frame to handle the batteries. I’m happy with a 750 watt ebike. I want access to paths with my ebike. If I want speed, I’ll get something that is clearly a motorcycle, at least in Utah. I won’t ride my 45 mph scooter on a bike path, knocking down little kids like pins at a bowling alley.
 
I've always seen the 3 classes as:
-Class 1: These should be acceptable everywhere a normal bike is acceptable.
-Class 2: Urban mobility; same assist as class 1 but allow throttle, intended for use in built up areas with lots of bike infra for utilitarian use.
-Class 3: Maximum assist for road riding, maybe some bike infra where appropriate, gives us something for people who want to ride roads and go faster without having to force high speeds on everyone who wants to allow ebikes.
The way I've always looked at it is that a collision at 20mph is typically going to involve bruises and scrapes, while a collision at 28mph is typically going to involve a trip the the ER. I do agree that there is a cutoff between those two velocities where a faster bike is inappropriate for multi-use paths and similar situations.

Generally I am seeing speed limits of 10-15mph on multi-use paths.
 
I understand but is class differentiation for a throttle-assist & 8mph differences really essential other than giving some people a warm and fuzzy feeling. Have you noticed that some brands have released multi-mode models that are CPSC compliant (legal for sale for sure) but ??? as to whether 3-class compliant. I always remind everyone having the capability to ride at 28mph doesn't mean a rider will always be going that speed (bike riders always ride per the conditions because they are the most likely to get injured/killed if they have an accident...not that accident don't happen).

I do want you/everyone to understand my petition is entirely based on the apparent impact on interstate commerce. The 3-class system does require multiple elements to be on the ebike prior to entry into interstate commerce and states DO NOT possess that right except under very unique situations. I did not write the laws and I believe PFBs and the states should have known better but that doesn't mean the petition will result is preemption of 3-class. I believe it will given the precedence and the explicit preemption clause in HR727 it will result in preemption (I think only if the states were already actively working with the CPSC will it not be preempted and I could not find any evidence they had even requested an advisory request). I can't force people to review these things but I encourage anyone interested in what the possible impact on ebike regulations will be to just do a bit of research or at least read my petition. My agenda is not hidden or sneaky - I just asked the CPSC to review and make a decision (I don't think they get involved unless someone files a petition as such but it was likely inevitable...eventually someone supporting 3-class would have been required to file a "petition for exception" to get the 2002 definition changed to the 3-class system as PFBs says was their ultimate goal in that video).

I knew when I filed and made this public there wold be the normal attack the messenger type of responses. Most ebike riders will just ignore it all together until maybe it does result in preemption at which everyone that owns an ebike in the 28 states impacted will wonder what happened. Most citizens don't know there is/was a federal ebike definition and certainly don't know much about the history of the safety agencies and why they have preemptive power over something like the 3-class legislation.
You already conceded the law isn't stopping 28 mph ebikes on roads, so...
 
Still, at some point, you are not a bicycle. The law says 750 watts. A lot of companies say 2 or 3 thousand watts. To me, a motorcycle suspension is a better way to go at 45 mph. I’ll take a motorcycle tire. I’ll take a bigger frame to handle the batteries. I’m happy with a 750 watt ebike. I want access to paths with my ebike. If I want speed, I’ll get something that is clearly a motorcycle, at least in Utah. I won’t ride my 45 mph scooter on a bike path, knocking down little kids like pins at a bowling alley.
I frequently think some people just want motorcycles but without registration/licensing/insurance and also want to be able to ride them wherever they want. Thats my first thought when someone argues "just put speed limits on bike paths and let people ride whatever!". Because the logical extension of that is, would you be ok with someone riding their Ducati down the MUP as long as they held it at 15mph or whatever?

Really, the argument about ebike classes and speed just comes down to where you draw the line between "close enough to a purely human powered bike that it can be treated like one for access and infrastructure purposes" and "moped/motorcycle with all that entails". I personally think class 1 (20mph cutout, pedal assist only) is a reasonable (probably slightly generous even) line for "acceptable absolutely anywhere a bicycle is acceptable". Class 2 and class 3 are far enough from normal bikes (for various reasons) that its nice to have them as options but also good to have them broken out so access can be considered on a case by case basis.
 
Well, who cares...

Everyone has a (hidden) agenda.


The whole ebike structure, the regulatory structure, is suspect, and it’s becoming counter productive, at best.

I used to ride my ebike, back in 2014. I liked riding on the bike paths, which are multi-purpose. There are a lot kids. It’s not a high speed environment. Back then, there were signs saying “No Motorized Vehicles”. People said that was not legally correct, because ebikes were not motorized vehicles. Objectively, they have a motor, but legally they don’t. All this really did was set in motion layers of rubbish.

Basically, an ebike is a bike. So, you are incentivized to call your motorized bike an ebike. Where is the bright red line? In California, the original ‘model’ law, a summary says “The bill would prohibit the operation of Class 3 bikes on specified paths, lanes, or trails…” So by definition a Class 3 is not an ebike where an ebike is a bike and can go where a bike can go.

There was always a single power limit for ebikes. Before explaining the difference between 1,2, and 3 the law says “An electric bicycle is a bicycle equipped with full operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts.” Simple. That’s for all the classes, that 750 watts.
The law also says you have to limit the watts, and then certify the watts. Oh, well

In 2015 a 750 watt motor was about right. The batteries were 300 to 500 watt hours and expensive. You can’t run at 750 watts with that size of battery. You can, but not for very long. It doesn’t matter. They sell ebike on speed and the speed is what kills the range.

In the good old days of the 3 Class Ebike, you had 500 watt hour batteries that cost $750. I bought a battery that is 750 watt hours for $120, although it is Chinese with Chinese cells. If you are willing to spend $750 for a battery today, then what. I mean, you were paying $750 back then, so what does that money buy today? Well, probably at least 2 or 3 kwh. That’s great. I can ride forever. But, real world, putting 3 kwh of battery pack on a bike will add a lot of weight and bulk. And how much range do you need?

We are already at 90 pound ‘ebikes’ some with coil spring suspension, like a motorcycle. Trying to push this around with 750 watts of motor is going to be a chore. And yet, they will go on with calling it an ebike because the rules are so lax. And to handle the weight they will put 25 or 30 amp controllers on them, a sure sign they are above the watt limit (amps times volts).

I’m not going to discuss pedal assist because I dislike pedal assist. It’s like a really bad throttle when you could just twist and go. They aren’t more like bikes, to me.

The fact that batteries are getting so cheap means that what Sondors puts on the Meta-cycle (really?) is what you can do on any cheap cycle. He’s at 4 kwh. Even at suburban speeds, say 45 mph, that is a decent range. You can handle the wind and a hill or two. Sondor doesn’t call it an ebike, which is something. If people really want speed, I don’t know why $3000 small cycles with 5-8 kw motors don’t fill the need? Oh, because of the license and stuff. Still, at some point, you are not a bicycle. The law says 750 watts. A lot of companies say 2 or 3 thousand watts. To me, a motorcycle suspension is a better way to go at 45 mph. I’ll take a motorcycle tire. I’ll take a bigger frame to handle the batteries. I’m happy with a 750 watt ebike. I want access to paths with my ebike. If I want speed, I’ll get something that is clearly a motorcycle, at least in Utah. I won’t ride my 45 mph scooter on a bike path, knocking down little kids like pins at a bowling alley.
Since you claim the regulatory structure is becoming counterproductive I would think you would like to see a return to federal definition as just being totally accepted that a "low speed electric bicycle" is just a bike. I agree 100% with your statement that is what was intended!! That is not a hidden agenda that is exactly why I filed the petition and I believe it has a good chance of success given the issues I detailed with the 3-class legislation. I think most people have a mental block that keeps them from just accepting that an ebike (which does have a motor) isn't supposed to be considered to have one per the original federal definition. I just feel the best future is to have the federal definition accepted as a bike by all the states (many still do and the Mississippi Attorney General made a public statement that is what was meant by the federal statute - that can be googled by anyone to verify).
 
The way I've always looked at it is that a collision at 20mph is typically going to involve bruises and scrapes, while a collision at 28mph is typically going to involve a trip the the ER. I do agree that there is a cutoff between those two velocities where a faster bike is inappropriate for multi-use paths and similar situations.

Generally I am seeing speed limits of 10-15mph on multi-use paths.
Yeah, the energy from a crash goes up with the square of speed (the equation for kinetic energy is 1/2(mass*velocity squared). Adding 8mph to your speed almost doubles your kinetic energy.
 
I frequently think some people just want motorcycles but without registration/licensing/insurance and also want to be able to ride them wherever they want. Thats my first thought when someone argues "just put speed limits on bike paths and let people ride whatever!". Because the logical extension of that is, would you be ok with someone riding their Ducati down the MUP as long as they held it at 15mph or whatever?

Really, the argument about ebike classes and speed just comes down to where you draw the line between "close enough to a purely human powered bike that it can be treated like one for access and infrastructure purposes" and "moped/motorcycle with all that entails". I personally think class 1 (20mph cutout, pedal assist only) is a reasonable (probably slightly generous even) line for "acceptable absolutely anywhere a bicycle is acceptable". Class 2 and class 3 are far enough from normal bikes (for various reasons) that its nice to have them as options but also good to have them broken out so access can be considered on a case by case basis.
That is likely what some want but a combination of the federal definition for low speed electric bicycle (that is the only product that is allowed to be considered a "bike" for "use" as a bike) combined with speed limits on the paths when it makes sense will work much better than where 3-class is headed.

Class 3 is not far from normal bike speeds (I don't know but maybe you personally don't ride that fast but it's still a fact) if you spend the time to really examine the speed range data for traditional bikes. I 100% agree that 20mph should remain the top "motor alone" ebike capability speed. That is what I have been saying, but get rid of the assist and allow that "power level" (what would sustain 20mph / 170lb rider / level surface to continue such that with the addition of rider effort an ebike can achieve a higher speed. The CPSC has clarified that is what is allowed and intended by the federal definition (even PFBs has stated that on their website and in multiple video and I have it in writing from the CPSC).

Allowing full "rated" power below 20mph opens a lot of potential for cargo / delivery ebikes but the "power limit" (not a cease of assist) at 20mph will by nature keep top speeds in the historical range of traditional bikes (that is just an objective fact). I could post a bunch of simulations proving this but all that would do is confuse everyone.
 
That is likely what some want but a combination of the federal definition for low speed electric bicycle (that is the only product that is allowed to be considered a "bike" for "use" as a bike) combined with speed limits on the paths when it makes sense will work much better than where 3-class is headed.

Class 3 is not far from normal bike speeds (I don't know but maybe you personally don't ride that fast but it's still a fact) if you spend the time to really examine the speed range data for traditional bikes. I 100% agree that 20mph should remain the top "motor alone" ebike capability speed. That is what I have been saying, but get rid of the assist and allow that "power level" (what would sustain 20mph / 170lb rider / level surface to continue such that with the addition of rider effort an ebike can achieve a higher speed. The CPSC has clarified that is what is allowed and intended by the federal definition (even PFBs has stated that on their website and in multiple video and I have it in writing from the CPSC).

Allowing full "rated" power below 20mph opens a lot of potential for cargo / delivery ebikes but the "power limit" (not a cease of assist) at 20mph will by nature keep top speeds in the historical range of traditional bikes (that is just an objective fact). I could post a bunch of simulations proving this but all that would do is confuse everyone.
I have got caught in a bike race, the "Storm Troopers" shut the road down( dont worry about commerce or appointments) some of these Guys had to be averaging 15 or so mph, up this hellish grind at "Warm Springs Mtn" the lead pack was hauling ass and coasting off the other side at a breakneck pace, some of the stragglers probably wished they had never joined this race. It was amazing the efficiency and power these Guys and Gals had you cannot dispute the efficiency of these Riders and road bikes( blew my mind)
 
Yeah, the energy from a crash goes up with the square of speed (the equation for kinetic energy is 1/2(mass*velocity squared). Adding 8mph to your speed almost doubles your kinetic energy.
Wonderful. Sure common sense and physics says higher speed = less safe. Do you comprehend that a 20mph assist speed cutoff does not limit the top speed an ebike can be ridden at. Should motorcycles be speed limited to 30? 40? 50? 60? I think the world has already decided that assist speed to 28mph is not too fast to be allowed on an ebike as a product.
 
A"death wobble" at high speeds is a terrible thing to behold,"Darwin" takes care of the Riders that are not cautious( fatten up a couple of those "stays on the
"Rockstar" and you could get a couple more parallel battery packs in there, when the power density of the new batteries increases by 50% there will be no reason to have an ICE powered cycle(and it will happen)
 
Wonderful. Sure common sense and physics says higher speed = less safe. Do you comprehend that a 20mph assist speed cutoff does not limit the top speed an ebike can be ridden at. Should motorcycles be speed limited to 30? 40? 50? 60? I think the world has already decided that assist speed to 28mph is not too fast to be allowed on an ebike as a product.
Yes, I have a class 1 as well. If you have the legs you can pedal any ebike faster than its motor cutoff, sure. But you're doing so at a huge handicap (extra weight and resistance). If you're someone who is capable of cruising on a class 1 at a meaningful faster speed than its cutoff, you're probably someone who would be equally capable of pedaling a non powered bike around those speeds.

No, the world hasn't decided that 28mph is too fast to be allowed (it is the limit for class 3 bikes which are made by most major mfgs and the fastest class of bikes that a majority of states allow). I definitely think that theres a consesus that 28mph is too fast for some places that normal bikes are allowed. I personally agree with that; I love my Revolt and think class 3s have a solid place in the ebike world, but I also think its unacceptably fast for some bike infrastructure. I do not agree that average speeds on a class 3 will fall within normal unpowered bike speed ranges (very, very few cyclists are averaging north of 20mph on anything).

Here are a few segments on the W&OD (MUP near me). Its probably about the most speed friendly multiuse path in the DC area (10ft wide, old railway so very straight and generally very flat). Both are slight climbs 1-1.5% and decently long (1.35 and 2.46 miles)
In 181,453 attempts, the fastest average speed ever was 23.8mph.
In 103,709 attempts, the fastest average speed ever was 22.3mph.
I'll note that both of those were very likely with a friendly tailwind (its a famously windy path and most KOM hunters try and time attempts to when they get a strong wind assist). in 10+years and over a hundred thousand attempts, the best unpowered cyclists barely beat class 1s max assist speed as an average.

I just think that "28mph is totally within the average speed range of non ebikes" is a huge exaggeration. Sure, a fit roadie can go surprisingly fast, and protour riders can go insanely fast. Average cyclist speeds on most paths is nowhere near even class 1s cutoff.
 
Yes, I have a class 1 as well. If you have the legs you can pedal any ebike faster than its motor cutoff, sure. But you're doing so at a huge handicap (extra weight and resistance). If you're someone who is capable of cruising on a class 1 at a meaningful faster speed than its cutoff, you're probably someone who would be equally capable of pedaling a non powered bike around those speeds.

No, the world hasn't decided that 28mph is too fast to be allowed (it is the limit for class 3 bikes which are made by most major mfgs and the fastest class of bikes that a majority of states allow). I definitely think that theres a consesus that 28mph is too fast for some places that normal bikes are allowed. I personally agree with that; I love my Revolt and think class 3s have a solid place in the ebike world, but I also think its unacceptably fast for some bike infrastructure. I do not agree that average speeds on a class 3 will fall within normal unpowered bike speed ranges (very, very few cyclists are averaging north of 20mph on anything).

Here are a few segments on the W&OD (MUP near me). Its probably about the most speed friendly multiuse path in the DC area (10ft wide, old railway so very straight and generally very flat). Both are slight climbs 1-1.5% and decently long (1.35 and 2.46 miles)
In 181,453 attempts, the fastest average speed ever was 23.8mph.
In 103,709 attempts, the fastest average speed ever was 22.3mph.
I'll note that both of those were very likely with a friendly tailwind (its a famously windy path and most KOM hunters try and time attempts to when they get a strong wind assist). in 10+years and over a hundred thousand attempts, the best unpowered cyclists barely beat class 1s max assist speed as an average.

I just think that "28mph is totally within the average speed range of non ebikes" is a huge exaggeration. Sure, a fit roadie can go surprisingly fast, and protour riders can go insanely fast. Average cyclist speeds on most paths is nowhere near even class 1s cutoff.
1st I said that 28mph assist has been determined to NOT be too fast ... I just wanted to say that you kinetic energy implication was not preventing speed pedelecs from existing and obviously other human mobility solutions go much faster.

I never said that 28mph ebike speed falls with an average range (they should average much faster but top speeds hit most likely hardly changed). I said it falls with the speed range that 99.7% of bikers have or do hit during a ride.... in other words it's not like crazy speed.

Average speed ranges is what you want to see increased with ebike use and the top speeds people ride at is what you don't want to increase that much (that would be an effective ebike that should be treated as a bike).
 
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