Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

[penserv]

In Canada, the limit is a 500 watt motor and a top power assisted speed of 24 mph (42 km/hr). My bike is significantly more powerful than that, so I guess I'm illegal. So what? Unless you do something completely stupid, like fly through a playground zone at 45 km/hr (posted 30 km/hr), does anyone really think that a police officer is going to pull over a cyclist and get down in the dirt on his hands and knees to look at the stamp on the bottom of your hub or mid drive motor? Legislators and bureaucrats can pass all the crazy legislation they want, but if it is never going to be enforced, why worry about it?

 

[kmccune]

We used to ride fixies as kids at night without lights we had frequent collisions, if we had faster bikes we probably would have ended up in the ER, swelled elbows and shins are not too bad when the speed is down, higher speeds tend to break things.
Safety is a personal responsibility, I hope all this talk about bike classes doesn;t end up taking the economy out of it. As it stands now its a cheap and efficient way to travel moderate distances, parking is easy too.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

In Canada, the limit is a 500 watt motor and a top power assisted speed of 24 mph (42 km/hr). My bike is significantly more powerful than that, so I guess I'm illegal. So what? Unless you do something completely stupid, like fly through a playground zone at 45 km/hr (posted 30 km/hr), does anyone really think that a police officer is going to pull over a cyclist and get down in the dirt on his hands and knees to look at the stamp on the bottom of your hub or mid drive motor? Legislators and bureaucrats can pass all the crazy legislation they want, but if it is never going to be enforced, why worry about it?

There is an important point that people like you miss. And yes, this has came up literally dozens of times over the years.

If your e-bike is not street legal and you get hit by a car while riding on the street, the driver of that vehicle is not liable for your injuries or damage to your e-bike. In fact, you might be charged from your hospital bed. Worse, the driver of the car that hit you might be able to sue you. In less civilized countries like the Untied States, where most health insurance is private, your insurance provider may refuse to pay for your medical care because you had no right to be out on the street with your illegal e-bike.

So the risk is not that you'll be ticketed, it is that you'll be in an accident and horribly screwed over.

 

[McCorby]

There is an important point that people like you miss. And yes, this has came up literally dozens of times over the years.

If your e-bike is not street legal and you get hit by a car while riding on the street, the driver of that vehicle is not liable for your injuries or damage to your e-bike. In fact, you might be charged from your hospital bed. Worse, the driver of the car that hit you might be able to sue you. In less civilized countries like the Untied States, where most health insurance is private, your insurance provider may refuse to pay for your medical care because you had no right to be out on the street with your illegal e-bike.

So the risk is not that you'll be ticketed, it is that you'll be in an accident and horribly screwed over.

This is also true if you are involved in an accident (your fault or not) while riding your non legal eBike on a bike path, trail, or MUP. If there’s an injury, law enforcement, insurers, and litigators will perform a thorough investigation...

 

[Asher]

1st I said that 28mph assist has been determined to NOT be too fast ... I just wanted to say that you kinetic energy implication was not preventing speed pedelecs from existing and obviously other human mobility solutions go much faster.

I never said that 28mph ebike speed falls with an average range (they should average much faster but top speeds hit most likely hardly changed). I said it falls with the speed range that 99.7% of bikers have or do hit during a ride.... in other words it's not like crazy speed.

Average speed ranges is what you want to see increased with ebike use and the top speeds people ride at is what you don't want to increase that much (that would be an effective ebike that should be treated as a bike).

I have to marvel at the constant pseudo logic of Ken's arguments. So because someone once rode 30 mph downhill, that now qualifies them to ride at 28 mph everywhere. That's like having 90 mph speed limits on every road because everyone has driven 90 mph at some point. Doing something once doesn't mean you're capable of doing it consistently safely in every single context. His arguments are full of this pseudo informed rhetoric.

@jabberwocky one saving grace of 28 mph ebikes is that most people even with one, don't like to ride that fast. I did a survey here and few people did ride that fast in urban settings, me and expert Ravi included.

 

[Asher]

In less civilized countries like the Untied States, where most health insurance is private, your insurance provider may refuse to pay for your medical care because you had no right to be out on the street with your illegal e-bike.

Source? I haven't heard of your own health insurer denying coverage for using an illegal vehicle.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Source? I haven't heard of your own health insurer denying coverage for using an illegal vehicle.

The Debate Over the Legalization of Marijuana

The debate over legalizing medical marijuana is a spirited one, and the proposition has many pros and cons. Explore the arguments on both sides.

www.verywellhealth.com

Insurers Often Refuse Coverage For Injuries Sustained In Illegal Activities - KFF Health News

The New York Times examines how some patients who are never charged with a crime can have their health claims denied by insurers because they reportedly were hurt while engaging in an illegal act. Meanwhile, The Washington Post looks at the large hospital bill one California man received after a...

khn.org

In general I think it is safe to assume that any insurance company will do anything imaginable (or unimaginable) to keep from paying a claim.

 

[Asher]

The Debate Over the Legalization of Marijuana

The debate over legalizing medical marijuana is a spirited one, and the proposition has many pros and cons. Explore the arguments on both sides.

www.verywellhealth.com

Insurers Often Refuse Coverage For Injuries Sustained In Illegal Activities - KFF Health News

The New York Times examines how some patients who are never charged with a crime can have their health claims denied by insurers because they reportedly were hurt while engaging in an illegal act. Meanwhile, The Washington Post looks at the large hospital bill one California man received after a...

khn.org

In general I think it is safe to assume that any insurance company will do anything imaginable (or unimaginable) to keep from paying a claim.

Thanks, my searches were coming up dry. I think your odds of getting coverage are pretty good with ebikes, especially if it's a solo crash. I wonder if they'd even know to ask what bike you were riding.

Agree about the last part, you just have to hope they're ignorant or lazy enough to give you coverage.

 

[Ken M]

I have to marvel at the constant pseudo logic of Ken's arguments. So because someone once rode 30 mph downhill, that now qualifies them to ride at 28 mph everywhere. That's like having 90 mph speed limits on every road because everyone has driven 90 mph at some point. Doing something once doesn't mean you're capable of doing it consistently safely in every single context. His arguments are full of this pseudo informed rhetoric.

@jabberwocky one saving grace of 28 mph ebikes is that most people even with one, don't like to ride that fast. I did a survey here and few people did ride that fast in urban settings, me and expert Ravi included.

I did not say anything like that. I just tried to illustrate that both a federally compliant ebike and a class 3 ebike result in speeds in the range that the majority of riders do achieve. I never implied or said these are speeds people do all the time. I know on some downs on my commutes I hit 34-35mph obviously without assist but 99% of the time I would ride in the 22-24mph range. My main point is that I feel a 20mph cease of assist is a bit too low and I think a power limit above a certain speed (like 20mph as the federal definition uses) is the best way to limit speed because the cease of assists do result in a poor product solution in my opinion (a power limit would be like a ramp down feeling because going faster would require more rider effort and above 20mph the wind resistance becomes a rapidly increasing factor.

It would be oh so nice if someone could present reasons actually supporting 3 class legislation vs the fed definition. About the only thing said was about trail access which is strange when the DOI just opened all trails to all 3 classes and federally compliant ebikes.

 

[Ken M]

This is also true if you are involved in an accident (your fault or not) while riding your non legal eBike on a bike path, trail, or MUP. If there’s an injury, law enforcement, insurers, and litigators will perform a thorough investigation...

This is the main reason few will really ride non-compliant ebikes on public infrastructure or trails as the liability risk is real. I don't think the chances of an enforcement ticket is that high and if 3-class system remains in place most bikes will be multi-mode so will be nearly impossible to determine if a rider was in an illegal mode or not. Federally compliant models could actually be cataloged because the CPSC in theory will not allow non-compliant ebikes to thru to 1st sale.

 

[kmccune]

I have to marvel at the constant pseudo logic of Ken's arguments. So because someone once rode 30 mph downhill, that now qualifies them to ride at 28 mph everywhere. That's like having 90 mph speed limits on every road because everyone has driven 90 mph at some point. Doing something once doesn't mean you're capable of doing it consistently safely in every single context. His arguments are full of this pseudo informed rhetoric.

@jabberwocky one saving grace of 28 mph ebikes is that most people even with one, don't like to ride that fast. I did a survey here and few people did ride that fast in urban settings, me and expert Ravi included.

I have slowed down, if I hit a deer at 30 mph,I will die and the Deer will walk away

The Debate Over the Legalization of Marijuana

The debate over legalizing medical marijuana is a spirited one, and the proposition has many pros and cons. Explore the arguments on both sides.

www.verywellhealth.com

Insurers Often Refuse Coverage For Injuries Sustained In Illegal Activities - KFF Health News

The New York Times examines how some patients who are never charged with a crime can have their health claims denied by insurers because they reportedly were hurt while engaging in an illegal act. Meanwhile, The Washington Post looks at the large hospital bill one California man received after a...

khn.org

In general I think it is safe to assume that any insurance company will do anything imaginable (or unimaginable) to keep from paying a claim.

I got stuck with a $1400 bill after an approved colonoscopy( they said it was not a routine wellness procedure)

 

[penserv]

There are some very interesting scenarios laid out here. In Canada, I guess we must be more civilized than the US because nobody is denied health care, nor are they charged for health care (that's not strictly true - Canadians pay more taxes than Americans). As far as being sued, again it doesn't happen frequently in Canada, mainly because it's just too costly to initiate a legal action and many provinces have established caps on injury claims. It would be interesting to hear if there has ever been a case in Canada where an individual who caused a collision has been able to sue the victim because the vehicle they were driving was illegal. When we talk about illegal vehicles, mostly cars and trucks, anytime you add or remove something from the vehicle, it is technically illegal. Probably 30% or more of the Ebikes sold in North America are illegal in one way or another. Anybody who buys or builds such a vehicle does not worry first and foremost about coming out on the wrong end of a legal battle because their vehicle was deemed illegal. They go for such a vehicle because the driving experience is more pleasurable. The overriding drive of this forum is that speed is addictive and going fast safely is a lot of fun.

 

[kmccune]

There are some very interesting scenarios laid out here. In Canada, I guess we must be more civilized than the US because nobody is denied health care, nor are they charged for health care (that's not strictly true - Canadians pay more taxes than Americans). As far as being sued, again it doesn't happen frequently in Canada, mainly because it's just too costly to initiate a legal action and many provinces have established caps on injury claims. It would be interesting to hear if there has ever been a case in Canada where an individual who caused a collision has been able to sue the victim because the vehicle they were driving was illegal. When we talk about illegal vehicles, mostly cars and trucks, anytime you add or remove something from the vehicle, it is technically illegal. Probably 30% or more of the Ebikes sold in North America are illegal in one way or another. Anybody who buys or builds such a vehicle does not worry first and foremost about coming out on the wrong end of a legal battle because their vehicle was deemed illegal. They go for such a vehicle because the driving experience is more pleasurable. The overriding drive of this forum is that speed is addictive and going fast safely is a lot of fun.

True, its easy to figure, most of the sold-out EBikes are the fastest and most powerful, sometimes it refreshing to kind of see a standard level of power in a bike line.

 

[Ken M]

There are some very interesting scenarios laid out here. In Canada, I guess we must be more civilized than the US because nobody is denied health care, nor are they charged for health care (that's not strictly true - Canadians pay more taxes than Americans). As far as being sued, again it doesn't happen frequently in Canada, mainly because it's just too costly to initiate a legal action and many provinces have established caps on injury claims. It would be interesting to hear if there has ever been a case in Canada where an individual who caused a collision has been able to sue the victim because the vehicle they were driving was illegal. When we talk about illegal vehicles, mostly cars and trucks, anytime you add or remove something from the vehicle, it is technically illegal. Probably 30% or more of the Ebikes sold in North America are illegal in one way or another. Anybody who buys or builds such a vehicle does not worry first and foremost about coming out on the wrong end of a legal battle because their vehicle was deemed illegal. They go for such a vehicle because the driving experience is more pleasurable. The overriding drive of this forum is that speed is addictive and going fast safely is a lot of fun.

I like your points as I do agree that someone's first thought isn't the fear of liability from an accident if riding an non-compliant ebike.

But this thread was actually started as just an heads-up on a petition I filed with the CPSC to review 3 class legislation. There were reactions that is the preemption happens that riders would loose trail access because there would only be one class not assist limited to 20 mph. My perception of the original intent of the US federal ebike definition is that they are to be "use" treated as any other bike. It says they are not motor vehicles and that they are just bikes but no one seems to interpret it per those words.

 

[J.R.]

It would be oh so nice if someone could present reasons

You use this plea all the time for every aspect of this topic, when in fact you've been presented with documented facts. You just don't like the facts and act as though they don't exist.

In reply to one of your previous posts on this topic about power and speed I wrote this reply:

As for how much power a cyclist can generate, a pro can generate 400 watts for an hour. He might have slight bursts of greater power, but can't maintain it. An average adult, of average fitness can generate 50 to 150 watts for an hour while cycling.

A 250 watt Euro spec ebike peaks between 500 and 600 watts. So an average adult ebike rider, with average skills has greater power and speed than a fit, experienced pro cyclist.

What is a good average wattage ​

To add further content to the speed and power issue:

Average cycling speed for new and experienced cyclists

Average cycling speeds, for amateurs, enthusiasts and professionals, with guidelines and targets for all levels of cyclist

www.road-bike.co.uk

Even with equipment upgrades a cyclist cannot maintain speeds you suggest are common.

I need a bigger gear to go faster! (Probably not)

www.chainreaction.com

Experienced professional cyclists, at the peak of their mental and physical fitness cannot maintain the watts, power and speed of a 750 watt class 3 ebike. There are countless articles with empirical data on this topic.

 

[antboy]

How does having two separate classes (with and without throttle) financially benefit Bosch?

Bosch et al and their manufacturing partners pretty much exclusively make make e-bikes without throttles.

They support a non-profit group that advocates for the separate classes, and that the class of bike they make be the class that has the least restrictive usage on the streets and trails of America.

I own a class 3 and it is definitely not appropriate for some bike infrastructure, but is probably ok on others.

Here's where I disagree. It's not the CLASS that matters, but how one rides it. If the environment (road, MUP, etc) has a set speed limit of 20mph, don't go faster than that.

 

[jabberwocky]

Bosch et al and their manufacturing partners pretty much exclusively make make e-bikes without throttles.

They support a non-profit group that advocates for the separate classes, and that the class of bike they make be the class that has the least restrictive usage on the streets and trails of America.



Here's where I disagree. It's not the CLASS that matters, but how one rides it. If the environment (road, MUP, etc) has a set speed limit of 20mph, don't go faster than that.

So if power and potential speed is irrelevant, you think that mups and bike paths should be open to motorcycles as long as they obey whatever speed limit is set? Under your logic, no issues with someone riding their sport bike down the local bike path, since we can just set a speed limit that people will obviously obey, and there will be no conflict issues?

 

[Mr. Coffee]

So if power and potential speed is irrelevant, you think that mups and bike paths should be open to motorcycles as long as they obey whatever speed limit is set? Under your logic, no issues with someone riding their sport bike down the local bike path, since we can just set a speed limit that people will obviously obey, and there will be no conflict issues?

Actually you can go further than that: if everyone obeys the rules obviously pedestrians and cyclists are perfectly safe in sharing the road with multi-ton motor vehicles and there is no need for separate infra for them.

 

[antboy]

So if power and potential speed is irrelevant, you think that mups and bike paths should be open to motorcycles as long as they obey whatever speed limit is set?

Pfft... don't put words in my mouth, when my earlier comments clearly don't reflect what you're projecting.

If YOU don't recall that, that's on you, because the whole thread still exists. As soon as I see classic deflection responsed, I take it as an indicator that reasonable discussion is becoming secondary to snark.

Actually you can go further than that: if everyone obeys the rules obviously pedestrians and cyclists are perfectly safe in sharing the road with multi-ton motor vehicles and there is no need for separate infra for them.

Of course YOU can, if you want, but that's nowhere near what I said earlier. Since when did even questioning People For Bikes' 3 class structure equal supporting a free-for-all?

CLASSIC use of the dogpiling technique, though.

 

[Ken M]

You use this plea all the time for every aspect of this topic, when in fact you've been presented with documented facts. You just don't like the facts and act as though they don't exist.

In reply to one of your previous posts on this topic about power and speed I wrote this reply:

As for how much power a cyclist can generate, a pro can generate 400 watts for an hour. He might have slight bursts of greater power, but can't maintain it. An average adult, of average fitness can generate 50 to 150 watts for an hour while cycling.

A 250 watt Euro spec ebike peaks between 500 and 600 watts. So an average adult ebike rider, with average skills has greater power and speed than a fit, experienced pro cyclist.

What is a good average wattage​

To add further content to the speed and power issue:

Average cycling speed for new and experienced cyclists

Average cycling speeds, for amateurs, enthusiasts and professionals, with guidelines and targets for all levels of cyclist

www.road-bike.co.uk

Even with equipment upgrades a cyclist cannot maintain speeds you suggest are common.

I need a bigger gear to go faster! (Probably not)

www.chainreaction.com

Experienced professional cyclists, at the peak of their mental and physical fitness cannot maintain the watts, power and speed of a 750 watt class 3 ebike. There are countless articles with empirical data on this topic.

I was asking for reasons why the 3-class system is considered to be so important. There have been many posts stating concerns about lost trail access if 3-class is preempted by the CPSC which seems very unlikely.

If I'm not mistaken the highest average watts for a human in one hour is around 350W but a minor point. I'm assuming you are bringing these numbers up to justify why 3 class are needed to regulate top assist speeds but I have repeatably said I understand that to be considered just a bike a "low speed electric bicycle" can't have the top speed performance into the motor vehicle space. I like the federal definition because it allows the full 750W rating (even higher peak) below 20mph while limiting the dynamic power of the drive system at speeds higher than 20mph. Given the power limits of the average rider that essentially keeps typical top speeds around 24-26mph (again I have run simulations to understand the federal definition and how the power limit at higher than 20mph speeds makes great sense (cut-offs suck and power limiting is a much better way to limit the top assist speed of an ebike. People are just so brain-washed to believe that the only way to do this is via a cease of assist at 20 or 28mph but that is just the brain dead way to do it.