Specialized Turbo Vado SL: An Incredible E-Bike (User Club)

[Stefan Mikes]

Ok. So now I'm down the rabbit hole. I didn't even know Garmin had Smart Range, Travel Range and shifting advice on the edge computer. So now I have that enabled and displayed. I'll have to see how it works with both my Specialized and Giant ebikes.

Interesting to see how the e-bike Travel Range would compare to Smart Range!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Jeremy, I'm sure you will find ER and RT extremely useful on longer rides. Combined with MicroTune, it gives you a powerful information weapon!

But if you don't have estimated range (ET) and range trend (RT) on your bikes, how do you know how reliable they are? Given all the real-world vagaries involved. Not exactly the same calculation as Smart Control.

If the recent hilly-then-flat ride I shared in Post #2,879 is any indication, it would have been a big mistake to blindly rely on the 29 mi of battery ER said I had left at the end. Have never done an assisted ride with under 1% per mile, and I had only 25% left at the time — not all of which was actually useable.

Not saying these tools are worthless. Just that one must know exactly how to interpret them and how far they can be trusted. So far, I haven't seen that documentation.

ADDENDUM: Official documentation at

https://support.specialized.com/kb/sp_zh-cn/content/ECV3-6200/Turbo-Bikes-MasterMind-Display-Metrics-Symbols/ECV3-6200

Scroll down to Estimated Range section. Some of the black box is revealed here, but only time and experience will tell how much these range estimates can be trusted with my riding habits in my terrain.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'd like to see any other brand so willingly describing details of the Range calculation... Describing the short and long ride window (integrator lower and upper bound), the integration step size (20 m) as well as the fact the integration works as I thought (no immediate Range change on switching the assist modes, that is, using integrals) only makes me respect Specialized engineers even more.

 

[mogulman]

Ok. So rode about 32 miles today. I have a Turbo Vado SL 5.0 with a Garmin Edge 840 latest firmware. I also was using a range extender. So started out with 150% battery on specialized (100% on Garmin). I was riding almost 100% at 60/100 assist.

On my Garmin, shift advice wasn't working. Maybe it isn't compatible with the Vado. Travel Range on the Garmin is the same number that is being reported by Specialized as Estimated Range. Smart Range is something different.

When I started, Estimated Range was 52 miles. Smart Range was around 10 miles.

Garmin smart Range would change as soon as I moved from sport, eco, turbo. Estimated range changed intermittently. Not sure why or when. I tried seeing if it was mileage or time related or battery related, but none of those were consistent.

Smart Range seemed useless to me. Not sure where Garmin is pulling this number from or if it's configurable.

Estimated Range ended up at 17 when I finished my ride at 32 miles. This was with about 40% battery left. For the last 15 miles of my ride, it was pretty much keeping me at 49 miles total range. Not sure if that total range number was correct, but at least it was consistent.

I'm going to msg Garmin to find out what is going with Smart Range.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I'd like to see any other brand so willingly describing details of the Range calculation... Describing the short and long ride window (integrator lower and upper bound), the integration step size (20 m) as well as the fact the integration works as I thought (no immediate Range change on switching the assist modes, that is, using integrals) only makes me respect Specialized engineers even more.

Agree, Specialized is truly exceptional in the under-the-hood details it shares with consumers — and not just in the cycling realm.

Especially appreciate the info they've provided on the inner workings of their power-sensing PAS for mid-drives — at least in quasi-steady riding. Most ebikes are total black boxes WRT how their PAS algorithms calculate motor power.

Specialized shared enough on their estimated range (ER) methodology to show that it's fairly sophisticated. But not enough to compare it with the ER approaches I see published in engineering journals. (All electric vehicle drivers want reliable ER, not just ebikers.)

They did discuss some of the limitations to their approach, but I wish they'd said more about the potential pitfalls in interpreting their ER figures in real-world situations.

In the end, the reliability of their ER figures for the SL is an empirical matter. Let's continue to share our findings.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

On my Garmin, shift advice wasn't working. Maybe it isn't compatible with the Vado

I even didn't know such a feature existed. Perhaps it is for Shimano motors only? (Garmin is strong on Shimano integration).

So started out with 150% battery on specialized (100% on Garmin).

Wahoo is the only GPS bike computer to recognize Range Extender... That's why I use my Garmin on the big Vado (a single battery) and a Wahoo for Vado SL. Ironically, Wahoo cannot recognize Giant batteries while Garmin can

 

[mogulman]

I even didn't know such a feature existed. Perhaps it is for Shimano motors only? (Garmin is strong on Shimano integration).


Wahoo is the only GPS bike computer to recognize Range Extender... That's why I use my Garmin on the big Vado (a single battery) and a Wahoo for Vado SL. Ironically, Wahoo cannot recognize Giant batteries while Garmin can

Not entirely true, just different My Garmin recognizes it, but it is 0-100% with both batteries combined. Ie. 50% on Garmin is 75% on the specialized display (starts at 150%)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not entirely true, just different My Garmin recognizes it, but it is 0-100% with both batteries combined. Ie. 50% on Garmin is 75% on the specialized display (starts at 150%)

I beg to differ. Disconnect the RE and you will have 100% as well If I'm wrong (I can be wrong) then the Estimated Range would be 50% longer with the Range Extender connected. Please tell me.
In an extreme situation, the main battery could be at 0% (disconnected by the system below 4%) but a fresh Range Extender would be 100%. Will Garmin handle that?
Please have the main battery partly discharged. Connect a full Range Extender. Will the LEV Battery Level increase?

 

[mogulman]

I beg to differ. Disconnect the RE and you will have 100% as well If I'm wrong (I can be wrong) then the Estimated Range would be 50% longer with the Range Extender connected. Please tell me.
In an extreme situation, the main battery could be at 0% (disconnected by the system below 4%) but a fresh Range Extender would be 100%. Will Garmin handle that?
Please have the main battery partly discharged. Connect a full Range Extender. Will the LEV Battery Level increase?

I don't have my range extender draining first. So when my Garmin says 50%, each battery is at 50% individually.

Specialized says 75% because it starts at 150%, so really specialized is displaying it incorrectly. Ie. If I getting a bigger battery and install it on my Vado SL, the total battery is still 100%. It just goes down slower because the bike is using power from a bigger battery.

On my Giant bike, I replaced the 500wh battery with an 825wh. It still reads 100% but it lasts 65% longer.

Also, I do remember when you've been wrong about Garmin a few other times in the past, so it definitely is possible

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Also, I do remember when you've been wrong about Garmin a few other times in the past, so it definitely is possible

I have asked very specific questions but you seem not to answer any of them

Beat this After I connected a fresh RE and rode for a short distance, I got 0/100%.

What happens when both batteries (Main/RE) are flat but you have connected a fresh RE? Know one thing: The RE does not discharge at the same rate as the Main Battery.

I suggest this: Ride on the Main Battery until it is, say, 50%. Now, connect Range Extender. Has the LEV Battery Level increased or not? I maintain Garmin cannot read the RE charge level.

 

[mogulman]

I have asked very specific questions but you seem not to answer any of them

View attachment 195883
Beat this

What happens when both batteries (Main/RE) are flat but you have connected a fresh RE? Know one thing: The RE does not discharge at the same rate as the Main Battery.

What does 4/6 mean? 66.7% or
40% for one battery and 60% for the other? Seems like your Wahoo is defective. 4/6 isn't really a percent.

 

[mogulman]

I have asked very specific questions but you seem not to answer any of them

View attachment 195883
Beat this After I connected a fresh RE and rode for a short distance, I got 0/100%.

What happens when both batteries (Main/RE) are flat but you have connected a fresh RE? Know one thing: The RE does not discharge at the same rate as the Main Battery.

I suggest this: Ride on the Main Battery until it is, say, 50%. Now, connect Range Extender. Has the LEV Battery Level increased or not? I maintain Garmin cannot read the RE charge level.

I'll try this next time, even if it is just for you to prove that Wahoo is better. I know you love Wahoo.

 

[stompandgo]

I beg to differ. Disconnect the RE and you will have 100% as well

With my dual battery Bosch, the battery remaining always starts at 100% with a full charge, with one or both batteries connected. A separate screen shows the remaining charge for each battery if running duals.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

What does 4/6 mean? 66.7% or
40% for one battery and 60% for the other? Seems like your Wahoo is defective. 4/6 isn't really a percent.

It actually is 4% of the main battery and 6% of Range Extender (7% total, the Specialized way). I went so low after over 92 kilometres ridden. At that moment, I swapped Range Extenders and rode off. As the Main Battery was dangerously low, the system cut it off. The new Range Extender was full so the displayed value became 0/100%.

4/6% meant 12.8 Wh remaining in the main battery and 9.6 Wh in the first Range Extender. I'm sure you have never gone so low

I'll try this next time, even if it is just for you to prove that Wahoo is better. I know you love Wahoo.

I do use a Garmin but on a single battery e-bike.
Buying a Garmin let me understand how underdeveloped it has been

 

[2wheelsgood]

Had a go on an electric G line Brompton the other day which is of course a completely different category of e-bike. I thought it was decent for what it was but I was immediately struck by how quiet the motor was in comparison to my SL. I have had a go on Bosch CX powered bikes and even they were nowhere near as quiet as the Brompton motor.

To my mind the only annoyance I have with my bike is the horrible noise it makes. My wife even says she knows I am home by the noise of the motor from around the corner of my house! Probably why it is so good as a fitness bike as the only way to stop the noise is to cycle faster!

If the motor's turning, the fat ain't burning

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Big discovery!
EDIT: And big disappointment! (see follow-up below)

In rereading the official Mastermind display documentation below, I came across an exciting surprise: Mastermind can show a rolling-window gradient!

https://support.specialized.com/kb/sp_zh-cn/content/ECV3-6200/Turbo-Bikes-MasterMind-Display-Metrics-Symbols/ECV3-6200

Who knew? Still trying to train my eye to estimate gradients. But for that, I need to know the real gradient in real time.

Had some success with this mechanical inclinometer, but it was often hard to read accurately from the saddle and couldn't be pointed dead ahead on the SL bar.

If the TCU's gradient is reasonably accurate, this could be the eye-training tool I need. Eager to try it tomorrow with this new 4th TCU page.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Eager to try it tomorrow with this new 4th TCU page

I only have some experience with the Mastermind TCD, the display of non-SL Turbos. The display is now being phased out by the new H3.

It is the default configuration. The Mastermind TCD has five configurable screens. I took photos of four of them: Ride, Battery/Range, Climb and Tuning/Stats.

To my mind the only annoyance I have with my bike is the horrible noise it makes.

My Fearless has been together with me for 4 years and 3 days now. I got used to the motor noise. It is usually masked by the external noise such as wind. The only place where the motor is clearly audible is a forest. The intensity of the noise varies: it is the loudest at high cadence.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I only have some experience with the Mastermind TCD, the display of non-SL Turbos. The display is now being phased out by the new H3.View attachment 195890
It is the default configuration. The Mastermind TCD has five configurable screens. I took photos of four of them: Ride, Battery/Range, Climb and Tuning/Stats.

Does that mean that you haven't tried the Mastermind gradient?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Does that mean that you haven't tried the Mastermind gradient?

In flat Mazovia? No, no reason to!

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If you think the SL 1.1 motor is noisy, please listen to the Bosch CX and SX