Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

[PowerMe]

Sonders claimed the factory can produce 12-14K bikes per month, it's not his factory. For all we know that factory is manufacturing many thousands of bikes per month...just not all Sonders bikes, and Sonders has no control of that factory's rate of production.

 

[EULITTLB]

LOL so you are an apologist - look he claimed Storm ebikes (whoops) could be produced at a rate of 12-14000 per month with manufacturing all in place with delivery in May 2015.

and because it is patently untrue you are trying to justify it, just ignore me and I will ignore you - good luck with Donald Trump or Kanye West.

 

[EULITTLB]

I am confused - Sondors said he did ship bikes on time as promised. Ho hum.

I think you totally misunderstood Wa5's reference to brake levers - in the UK the right hand lever is the front brake. As you say, who cares?

Jumping in the CF pool does not permit the seller to mislead you, make false claims, exaggerations and downright lie, at least not with the CF campaigns I am involved with above.

Your call.

 

[George S.]

If / when Storm defaults on his debt to Agency 2.0 could this campaign still be considered a success? I don't know that I would be comfortable sponging on somebody else in order to receive a bike. would be akin to knowingly purchasing stolen goods I reckon.

Legally, Storm seems to own this campaign. A2 and IGG are very close, almost inseparable. And yet all the money clearly had to go through Storm. Storm said he needed money to get the bikes done. That was Storm's decision to make. And his decision was to not pay Agency.

We'll never know any of this in detail, best I can determine. Did A2 think Storm the Surfer Boy was putty in their hands, ready to do what they wanted? Did they set him up to take the fall if anything went wrong? How did Hopp get forced out so, well, quickly? Apparently Hopp had no control over the money. What did he think he was going to get, out of the deal? What made Storm write the bad checks, a clear sign he was in charge? What is left and where will it go? How much does Mr Sondors have?

If people get the bikes, they can feel good about that. If Storm wants to run the Sondors as a bike company, he'll have to work something out with A2.

I hope Chris gets everything he deserves.

 

[PowerMe]

This may be one of those campaigns that does not head into becoming an ongoing business once the project is done. Some CF projects do. Many more never do.

 

[wa5]

I have no clue what the Donald Trump or Kanye West references are about, and I don't care.

I'm not apologizing for anyone. Sonders does not own that factory. He cannot control that factory. He may believe he can control it, but it's not his to control. I said many months ago the bike would not ship on time. I said this because I know that many, if not most, CF projects ship later than the campaign owners claim they will. It just seems to go that way and if you can't accept that as one of the inherent risks in CF, then don't jump in the CF pool. It's why campaigns give an "estimated delivery" and not a "bonafide absolute without a doubt you'll have your item in hand by" delivery.

Fact: Funders will get the bike when they get it, despite what 'should' happen or how long or short it 'should' take.

Fact: The front brake wire and lever goes on the LEFT side for bikes in North America and in some parts of Europe (despite Wa's claim that it should be opposite of that and comparing that error to 'war crimes.')

"Crowd funding is an unreliable investment" I understand that, not everybody does, we all have a different IQ and skill set. "People should know better".. agreed, they should, but they don't, if they did, Nigerian princes all over the internet would be starving.

Crowd funding grew from people with good original ideas not being able to get funded. to give their dreams wings, not to have its every loop hole exploited by serial fraudsters.

The Buyers "May" get the bike when they get it, as of yet, nothing has been delivered and I see no proof that ALL bikes will be. come back to me when they are.

I didn't care what side the brake lever was on, to anybody but a one eyed supporter, that comment would have plainly been tongue in cheek... I display a suit for general fitment, interesting that you claim it to be tailor made..

 

[PowerMe]

George,

I think the way IGG is set up is that all campaign runners 'own' their campaign and as such can remove funds from the established account even before a campaign has reached its funding goals. Nothing different about the Sonders campaign versus other IGG campaigns except there are more fingers in the pie, or at least were at one time.

Kickstarter is a little different in that they don't release funds to the campaign owner until the minimum funding requirements have been met and then the project is a 'go.'

 

[pxpaulx]

Kickstarter funds are not even charged to contributors credit cards until a campaign end date, being successfully funded of course. You won't find extensions or in demand garbage with Kickstarter, those are just evidence igg wants their hands in the pie on successful large dollar campaigns.

I was happy to see the radrover campaign end permanently, on time and have then move their business to their own established website. Didn't have to pay the balance or shipping through igg either, paid directly to rad power bikes via PayPal. Clearly igg was a means to an end for rad power, not the end itself that sondors is using the site for.

 

[George S.]

@PowerMe

For a while we got little nuggets of gossip from A2.0, when they filed the lawsuit. A2 said they fronted the money for promotions during the campaign, so they didn't seem to have access to the account. They also said Storm was taking some sort of 'mystery' withdrawals. Bruce Choate says Storm only owed a bonus if they reached 12k units. There are two sides to every lawsuit.

I guess if Storm wanted to sell bikes he could walk away from this and come back with something else. In the end, it's a bike anyone could make, and maybe Storm has the Celebrity Status from this thing.

There are some successful campaigns right now, like the Freway. It's bizarre because the people are fairly sophisticated, but they don't really understand English. Thing is, nothing will ever be another Storm.

It had some entertainment value. The ending is OK with me, people with ebikes. We're here, most of us, so people get ebikes. I mean, we're not here to define the standards for how people get ebikes, really.

 

[J.R.]

In the end, it's a bike anyone could make

In the end... I was going to say this kind of ebike campaign cannot ever happen again. I change cannot with should not! This thing should be a long lived story going forward and a lesson that anyone can build a Sondors. A better Sondors! We can thank Storm and all the backers for this invaluable lesson.

In the end... It looks at this moment that a lot of the backers will get something out of this, hope so. It was never going to be anything more than a fun toy, a low end, entry level ebike. If most backers keep that in mind, they won't feel burned.

In the end... Much could be learned from this thread by all of us. Tactics used here weren't the thin edge of the wedge, they were the full body of the wedge. Pounding someone over the head never works. Civility and maturity is what's most often needed to make a point, something that's sorely lacking on the internet. Imagine how much worse this thread would have been with all the removed posts.

Is it the end? Is July 6 Independence Day?

 

[FTC Complaint]

Assembly videos are a hoot; they show the "quality !?! " of the bike. The battery installation and wheel reflector vids show the cheap quality off in technicolor.

The battery sort of fits in the flexing box with the wires routed between the box and the frame;

The rims show the "quality"

Also the rear wheel spoke gauge is far too light THE rear SPOKES WILL BE A BREAKING and nobody in a bicycle repair shop will want to touch them.

The plug in the battery box! well that is so you can stick your fingers into the box to toggle the on off switch for the battery! not for charging.

 

[EULITTLB]

@ George S. in the UK writing a cheque is an admission of debt and is 100% enforceable unless the cheque signature is forged or the chequebook has been stolen - does the UK differ from the USA in this respect?

Whereas whether donators actually get bikes or not is one thing, I do not believe that all donators will get bikes; if/ and when they do, particularly international donators, there will be some interesting tales with customs charges....

What interests me most is actual performance, range and battery life and how much they differ from Sondors claims - I still believe there will be huge logistical and technical problems with the entry-level ebike that people may or may not get.... and complaints and "warranty" claims will fall on deaf ears.

 

[George S.]

@EULITTLB

The county attorney around here used to prosecute people who wrote bad checks. It is, clearly, fraud. There was too much other crime for him to continue, but the laws are on the books. The checks may have been to reimburse expenses, but you raise an interesting point. Each state is a little different. The English common law plays a role in American law. It shows intent or awareness of a debt, for sure.

I don't know what is left ($$$) and what needs to be built. I could see Storm offering Chris some fraction of the 'bonus' money. Most people settle. Chris has a least as good a shot as some of the Greek debt holders.

I think the most intense fans of the bike think it will have a huge market potential. Some people will see the bike, but going over to IGG and clicking on some "In Demand" thing, then waiting months?

Storm might be better off to bring out the Super Sondo, or the Bernie Sanders. But he wouldn't have an A2 campaign behind it. If they could market it to Walmart, maybe.

The two $500 ($700) IGG bikes have quite a bit to prove. That would be Storm and Wave, or Sondors and Wave.

 

[JoePah]

The problem I have with all these cf, but especially the Porteur and the FlyKly, is that youre buying a bill of goods.. They are first generation products, delivery months or year late, and there is no local support.. With the Porteur some poor slobs have paid over $3500!

I expect there will be problems with the Sondors bikes just like any new eBike from any company.

For those of you less exeperienced, ask any one who has been around.. My experience with the A2B Metro was really poor, and a lot of early Stromer owners was bad as well..

Just have to have patience.

 

[Hurley]

You bring up a great point FTC. The diameter of the spokes are frightening. Just compare them to say, Prodeco.

Another problem is going to be transporting these bikes with classic bike carriers. Besides the weight, the lunch box will be right in the way. You will need the kind of rack that the wheels sit on and can accommodate the width of the tires.
The first upgrade should be the spokes in my opinion. For the wheels in particular, be absolutely sure to torque to the proper pounds per square inch.

I see people getting hurt on this bike. It has dangerous written all over it.

I don't know if the data below applies to electric bikes but it's a start.

Bottom brackets
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Bearing cups Shimano® Hollowtech II 34.5~49.1 Nm 305~435 in-lbs
Cartridge bottom brackets Campagnolo® (3-piece) 70 Nm 612 in-lbs
Campagnolo® Ultra-Torque cups 35 Nm 310 in lbs
FSA® 39.2~49 Nm 347~434in lbs
Race Face® 47.5 Nm 420 in lbs
Shimano® 49~69 Nm 435~610 in lbs
Truvativ® 33.9~40.1 Nm 300~360 in lbs
White Industries® 27 Nm 240 in lbs

Brakes
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Brake pads (threaded stud) Avid® 5.9~7.8 Nm 52~69 in lbs
Cane Creek® 6.3~6.7 Nm 56~60 in lbs
Campagnolo® 8 Nm 71 in lbs
Mavic® 7~9 Nm 62~80 in lbs
Shimano® 5~7 Nm 43~61 in lbs
SRAM® 5.7~7.9 Nm 50~70 in lbs
Brake pads (smooth stud) Shimano® 7.9~8.8 Nm 70~78 in lbs
Brake pads (sidepull, dual pivot) Cane Creek® 6.3~6.7 Nm 56~60 in lbs
Shimano® 6~8 Nm 52~69 in lbs
Cable pinch bolt (cantilever, linear pull/v-brake) Avid® M6 bolt 5.9~7.8 Nm 52~69 in lbs
ControlTech® 4.5~6.8 Nm 40~60 in lbs
Shimano® 6~7.8 Nm 53~69 in lbs
Shimano® M6 bolt 5.6~8.5 Nm 50~75 in lbs
SRAM® 5.6~7.9 Nm 50~70 in lbs
Cable pinch bolt (sidepull, dual pivot) Cane Creek® 7.7~8.1 Nm 68~72 in lbs
Campagnolo® 5 Nm 44 in lbs
Mavic® 7~9 Nm 62~80 in lbs
Shimano® 6~8 Nm 52~69 in lbs
Caliper mounting bolt (cantilever, linear pull/v-brakes) Avid® 4.9~6.9 Nm 43~61 in lbs
ControlTech® 11.3~13.6 Nm 100~120 in lbs
Shimano® 8~10 Nm 69~87 in lbs
SRAM® 5.7~7.9 Nm 50~70 in lbs
Caliper mounting bolt (sidepull, dual, center pull) Cane Creek® 7.7~8.1 Nm 68~72 in lbs
Shimano® 7.84~9.8 Nm 70~86 in lbs
Cantilever straddle wire (M5 thread) ControlTech® 7.7~8.1 Nm 40~60 in lbs
Shimano® 3.9~4.9 Nm 35~43 in lbs

Brakes (Disc)
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Caliper mount Avid® 9~10.2 Nm 80~90 in lbs
Magura® 5.7 Nm 51 in lbs
Shimano® 6~8 Nm 53~69 in lbs
Disc mounting bolts (6 M5 bolts) Avid® 6.2 Nm 55 in lbs
Hayes® 5.6 Nm 50 in lbs
Magura® 3.8 Nm 34 in lbs
Shimano® 2~4 Nm 18~35 in lbs
Disc mounting lockring (rotor to hub) Shimano® 40 Nm 350 in lbs
Hydraulic hose fittings Hayes® 6.2 Nm 55 in lbs

Cassettes & Freewheels
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Cassette lockring Campagnolo® 50 Nm 442 in lbs
Shimano® 29.4~49 Nm 260~434in lbs
Freehub body Bontrager® 45 Nm 400 in lbs
Shimano® 35~50 Nm 305~434in lbs
Shimano® FH-M975/970 (14mm) 45~50 Nm 392~434 in lbs

Chainrings
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Chainring bolt (steel) Campagnolo® 8 Nm 71 in lbs
Race Face® 11.3 Nm 100 in lbs
Shimano® 7.9~10.7 Nm 70~95 in lbs
Truvativ® 12.1~14 Nm 107~124 in lbs
Chainring bolt (aluminum) Shimano® 5~10 Nm 44~88 in lbs
Truvativ® 8.1~9 Nm 72~80 in lbs
Chainring spider to crank arm Shimano® 50~70 Nm 443~620 in lbs

Cranksets
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Crank bolts FSA® M8 bolt 34~39 Nm 304~347 in lbs
FSA® M14 bolt 49~59 Nm 434~521 in lbs
FSA® MegaExo crank adjusting cap 0.4~0.7 Nm 32~53 in lbs
FSA® MegaExo crank bolt pinch screws 9.8~11.2 Nm 87~100 in lbs
Campagnolo® (3-piece) 32~38 Nm 282~336 in lbs
Campagnolo® Ultra-Torque 42 Nm 371 in lbs
Race Face® 54 Nm 480 in lbs
Shimano® 34~44 Nm 305~391 in lbs
Shimano® Octalink XTR crank arm bolt 40.3~49 Nm 357~435 in lbs
Shimano® Hollowtech II crank bolt pinch screws 9.9~14.9 Nm 88~132 in lbs
Syncros® 27 Nm 240 in lbs
Truvativ® ISIS drive 43~47 Nm 384~420 in lbs
Truvativ® square spindle 38~42 Nm 336~372 in lbs
Truvativ® Powerspline 38~42 Nm 336~372 in lbs
White Industries® 27~34 Nm 240~300 in lbs
Crank bolts (one key release) Shimano® 5~6.8 Nm 44~60 in lbs
Truvativ® 12.1~14 Nm 107~124 in lbs

Derailleurs
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Front derailleur bolt (braze-on) Campagnolo® 7 Nm 62 in lbs
Front derailleur clamp Campagnolo® 7 Nm 62 in lbs
Mavic® 2.9~4 Nm 26~35 in lbs
Shimano® 5~7 Nm 44~60 in lbs
SRAM® 5~7 Nm 44~60 in lbs
Front derailleur cable pinch Campagnolo® 5 Nm 44 in lbs
Mavic® 5~7 Nm 44~62 in lbs
Shimano® 5~7 Nm 44~60 in lbs
SRAM® 4.5 Nm 40 in lbs
Rear derailleur mounting bolt Campagnolo® 15 Nm 133 in lbs
Shimano® 8~10 Nm 70~90 in lbs
SRAM® 8~9.6 Nm 70~85 in lbs
Rear derailleur cable pinch Campagnolo® 6 Nm 53 in lbs
Shimano® 3.9~5.9 Nm 35~52 in lbs
SRAM® 4~5.1 Nm 35~45 in lbs
Rear derailleur pulley wheel Shimano® 3 Nm 20 in lbs

Levers (Brakes)
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Drop bar levers Campagnolo® 9.9 Nm 88 in lbs
Mavic® 7~9 Nm 62~80 in lbs
Shimano® 6~7.8 Nm 53~69 in lbs
Mountain bike levers Avid® built-in clamp 4.5~6.8 Nm 40~60 in lbs
Avid® strap-type 3.2~4.1 Nm 28~36 in lbs
Cane Creek® 6~9 Nm 53~80 in lbs
Shimano® 6~7.8 Nm 53~69 in lbs
SRAM® 3.4 Nm 30 in lbs
Upright bar levers Campagnolo® 10 Nm 89 in lbs
Shimano® 6~8 Nm 53~69 in lbs

Levers (Shifter)
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Drop bar brake/shift combos Campagnolo® 10 Nm 89 in lbs
Shimano® STI 6~8 Nm 52~69 in lbs
Upright/flat bar shifters Shimano® 5~7.4 Nm 44~69 in lbs
Twist-grip shifters Shimano® REVO 6~7.9 Nm 53~70 in lbs
SRAM® 1.9 Nm 17 in lbs

Handlebars
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Handle bar end extensions Cane Creek® Gripnut 7.9 Nm 70 in lbs
ControlTech® 16.3 Nm 144 in lbs

Headsets
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Threaded Lockrings Chris King® Gripnut 14.6~17 Nm 130~150 in lbs
Tange-Seiki® 24.5 Nm 217 in lbs

Pedals
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Pedal shaft into crank arm Campagnolo® 40 Nm 354 in lbs
FSA® Cranks 29~34 Nm 257~301 in lbs
Ritchey® 34.7 Nm 307 in lbs
Shimano® 35 Nm 304 in lbs
Truvativ® 31.2 Nm 276 in lbs

Seats & Seatposts
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Seat rail clamp Campagnolo® 22 Nm 194 in lbs
ControlTech® 1 bolt 33.9 Nm 300 in lbs
ControlTech® 2 bolt 16.3 Nm 144 in lbs
Shimano® 20~30 Nm 174~260 in lbs
Syncros® 5 Nm 45 in lbs
Time® Monolink 5 Nm 44 in lbs
Truvativ® M6 Bolt 6~7.1 Nm 53~63 in lbs
Truvativ® M8 Bolt 22~24 Nm 195~212 in lbs
Seatpost clamp Campagnolo® 4~6.8 Nm 36~60 in lbs

Stems
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Threaded stem bolt (quill-type) ControlTech® 16.3~19 Nm 144~168 in lbs
Shimano® 19.6~29.4 Nm 174~260 in lbs
Threadless stem (fork column bolts) ControlTech® 13.6~16.2 Nm 120~144 in lbs
Deda® 8 Nm 71 in lbs
FSA® Carbon 8.8 Nm 78 in lbs
Syncros® cotter bolt 10.1 Nm 90 in lbs
Thomson® 5.4 Nm 48 in lbs
Time® Monolink 5 Nm 45 in lbs
Race Face® 6.2 Nm 55 in lbs
Threadless stem (1 or 2 bolt handlebar clamp) ControlTech® 13.6~16.3 Nm 120~144 in lbs
Shimano® 19.6~29.4 Nm 174~260 in lbs
Threadless stem (4 bolt handlebar clamp) ControlTech® 13.6~16.3 Nm 120~144 in lbs
Deda® magnesium 8 Nm 71 in lbs
FSA® OS-115 carbon 8.8 Nm 78 in lbs
Race Face® 6.2 Nm 55 in lbs
Thomson® 5.4 Nm 48 in lbs
Time® Monolink 6 Nm 53 in lbs

Wheels & Hubs
Component Brand Newton meters Inch-pounds
Axle wheel mount nuts Shimano® 29.4~44.1 Nm 260~390 in lbs
SRAM® 30.1~39.6 Nm 266~350 in lbs
Hub cone locknut Bontrager® 17 Nm 150 in lbs
Chris King® 12.2 Nm 100 in lbs
Shimano® 9.8~24.5 Nm 87~217 in lbs

 

[Hurley]

Hmmmm

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[wa5]

Sorry, not getting the "Hmmm"? what are we comparing here? spoke thickness?

 

[Hurley]

A rather brilliant deduction! I said hmmm because it is difficult to see the difference but there is a difference. Kinda left it open to others interpretation...

 

[wa5]

different backgrounds make it hard to be sure how much difference there is.. probably not the best place to penny pinch on a heavier bike, but I suppose it was built to a price, honestly, if I were speccing a bike, its probably not something I'd give a lot of thought to, but I'm certainly no expert.

 

[Hurley]

There is a reason why bonafide electric bicycle companies use thicker spokes due to the motors/added weight on the rear wheels as well as the front. It is not a trivial issue.
There have been many injuries and a few deaths due to a wheel coming apart and becoming grossly untrue. Spokes are especially important on electric bikes with hub motors.
First and foremost is safety not forward motion. Imagine going downhill at 25 mph and your front wheel falls apart.