Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.
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wa5
Well-Known Member
I think perhaps this Is just the campaign to do that, and it (the lawsuit) might come from the person or group you least suspect.
Imagine just how obsessive and nuts some of the true believers are going to be when they finally wake up one day and realise they are never getting their bikes.
I'm not sure that people like Hillis and Choate could be called an asset to the campaign, but I know they have the capacity to be a giant pain in the arse of anybody who pisses them off... any group lawsuit that gets launched, I reckon they will be in the centre of it.
Imagine just how obsessive and nuts some of the true believers are going to be when they finally wake up one day and realise they are never getting their bikes.
I'm not sure that people like Hillis and Choate could be called an asset to the campaign, but I know they have the capacity to be a giant pain in the arse of anybody who pisses them off... any group lawsuit that gets launched, I reckon they will be in the centre of it.
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
I don't know that people won't ever get their bikes (do you?). Get them late, sure that I do believe and have since the beginning since most campaigns deliver the goods later than they originally estimate.
As rabid as the fanboys are, there is just as much rabidness on the other side too, to be fair. I'd be more apt to believe there will be a gun fight at dawn somewhere first.
As rabid as the fanboys are, there is just as much rabidness on the other side too, to be fair. I'd be more apt to believe there will be a gun fight at dawn somewhere first.
As much of a rabid other-side boy as I am, I agree with most of your postings @PowerMe; however I am uncomfortable with you brushing off things that the Campaign Owner stated - which led people to pledge/donate etc - which were plainly lies. On Feb 2nd 2015 Ivars stated that manufacturing was all in place ready-to-go with a capacity of 12-14000 bikes a month. I think it fair to say that most people didn't envisage perpetual delays; neither is it acceptable for lies to be told or for people to have to put up with it just because they have parted with their money on the basis of misleading statements and false claims, just because it is a "Campaign" or "Crowdfunding.'
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
I'm not brushing anything off, I'm merely stating what I have come to understand in terms of how CF campaigns happen to go. Most products deliver later than original estimates. Specs changing is also not an unheard of phenomenon in the CF world. At this point right now, there is no indication that Sonders has taken the money & run with it.
More importantly: if the actual funders are ok with the risks they knowingly took, and if the actual funders are continuing to support this campaign despite all the info to warn them off, then why would anyone not invested in this campaign, be so upset?
More importantly: if the actual funders are ok with the risks they knowingly took, and if the actual funders are continuing to support this campaign despite all the info to warn them off, then why would anyone not invested in this campaign, be so upset?
scmike
Active Member
I don't think Sondors is taking the money and running... He's more likely taking the money and wasting it... He's having great time ,over in China, playing with "other peoples" money... The RadRover campaign is being run from the states... the biggest difference is the non essential plastic battery box... that's about it... in a nutshell...
LOL PowerMe, good comeback - I am not upset, I am irritated however that lies and false statements can be so freely made without sanction, and if funders get their bikes eventually - which don't perform as stated - all is forgiven? In a sense he has taken the money and run with it because there is no evidence he has paid any suppliers/agencies he owes money to - tell me, what is the interest on the money in 4 months?
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Why would anyone not invested in this campaign be feeling <insert admitted feeling du jour>? Why? What is the point? What is this emotional attachment to something not personally invested? Just as the funding fanboys think they are somehow running the CF campaign (LOL & so what?), there's an equal and opposing obsession from some not even invested in the campaign, as if their life and life savings are on the line. Why? What for? I think I'm witnessing sheer madness, and I don't think it actually has anything to do with the subject or product.
{this is a rhetorical question, not intended to elicit an answer. There is no logical/sane answer}
{this is a rhetorical question, not intended to elicit an answer. There is no logical/sane answer}
FTC Complaint
Active Member
I just "banned myself from the chat board" because it looked like I was on the cusp of getting a cease and desist, "for asking about liability insurance, and the veracity of their business plan."
I expected it to take a few years for Sondors to self-destruct, not anticipating that he would have a lawsuit right of the gate for non-payment of fees. I think IGG is quietly "lurking in fear" that the Sondors will continue to self-destruct.
wa5
Well-Known Member
(PowerMe said)
More importantly: if the actual funders are ok with the risks they knowingly took, and if the actual funders are continuing to support this campaign despite all the info to warn them off, then why would anyone not invested in this campaign, be so upset?
(END QUOTE)
Just how many of the funders ARE aware of what they have let themselves in for? I was vaguely aware of Crowdfunding before Ivars came along, but really couldn't have told you much about it.. I'm reasonably well educated, and try to keep up on current events, the things I don't know about, but need to, I will research before jumping in.
But a lot of people don't do that, we all live in countries that have fairly strong consumer protection laws, so its not to hard to imagine some people ticking "OK" on the box without reading the small print, when ordering their Sondors bike... or more specifically gambling their money unknowingly on the off chance they may get the bike they think they ordered.
Some of those people really didn't know what they were getting into IMHO... and some of them really cant afford to get taken, they had to re arrange their budgets to afford this bike.. it will hurt them IF it doesn't turn up..
A lot of Sondorites seem to be new to ebikes, you say they "Knowingly" subscribed to this... I'm not so sure I agree with that., You may think I'm judging the funders unfairly hinting that they are stupid, that's not it, I think they are innocent and ill informed. if I saw somebody getting taken by the old shell and ball game, I'd warn them off... not because I think they lack intelligence or I enjoy talking down to people, but because I don't like to see people get taken advantage of.... and I'd assume they had little or no information about the scam, I'd warn them because its the right thing to do (as I see it).
More importantly: if the actual funders are ok with the risks they knowingly took, and if the actual funders are continuing to support this campaign despite all the info to warn them off, then why would anyone not invested in this campaign, be so upset?
(END QUOTE)
Just how many of the funders ARE aware of what they have let themselves in for? I was vaguely aware of Crowdfunding before Ivars came along, but really couldn't have told you much about it.. I'm reasonably well educated, and try to keep up on current events, the things I don't know about, but need to, I will research before jumping in.
But a lot of people don't do that, we all live in countries that have fairly strong consumer protection laws, so its not to hard to imagine some people ticking "OK" on the box without reading the small print, when ordering their Sondors bike... or more specifically gambling their money unknowingly on the off chance they may get the bike they think they ordered.
Some of those people really didn't know what they were getting into IMHO... and some of them really cant afford to get taken, they had to re arrange their budgets to afford this bike.. it will hurt them IF it doesn't turn up..
A lot of Sondorites seem to be new to ebikes, you say they "Knowingly" subscribed to this... I'm not so sure I agree with that., You may think I'm judging the funders unfairly hinting that they are stupid, that's not it, I think they are innocent and ill informed. if I saw somebody getting taken by the old shell and ball game, I'd warn them off... not because I think they lack intelligence or I enjoy talking down to people, but because I don't like to see people get taken advantage of.... and I'd assume they had little or no information about the scam, I'd warn them because its the right thing to do (as I see it).
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
Why is it any business of those who are NOT in charge of this campaign, NOT associated with IGG, have NOT invested in this venture to reach out to anyone who is involved in this venture as a funding participant? If I were a CF campaign funder, and I did so willingly, as an adult, which I'd have to be to join in the first place, I would most certainly NOT want some person or persons on the Interwebs to interfere or attempt to interfere in my crowdfunding choices.
If you have a legal issue then pursue a legal course of action and leave the individual funders out of it. If it were me and anyone attempted to contact me without invitation to do so, to 'warn' me about the grave error of my ways in making my funding choices, I would consider that harassment and would seek a remedy for that.
If you have a legal issue then pursue a legal course of action and leave the individual funders out of it. If it were me and anyone attempted to contact me without invitation to do so, to 'warn' me about the grave error of my ways in making my funding choices, I would consider that harassment and would seek a remedy for that.
FTC Complaint
Active Member
Because the people in the venture are non communicative, and have not communicating on a truthful and fair basis. Even when given every opportunity to respond to the press.
Had the campaign been truthful, I would not have been involved as one of many "experts in the field." Court is an example of such an expert, providing a compare and contrast against a known product. When confronted with lies, people have a right and obligation to speak to fact.
When a press outlet makes a mistake, they print (and in this case have printed) a retraction. It is called integrity and responsibility folks.
Being non-communicative facilitates lying, it is the antithesis of transparency. Having folks that purchased bikes become the "mouth piece of the campaign" by spouting hearsay is lying.
PowerMe
Well-Known Member
That's not a valid reason. No one has a right to bother any individual investor. Investors are not anyone's responsibility outside of IGG or the campaign founder or management.
Investors are not children. Investors are not animals. Investors are adults. Interfering in an investor's choice or reaching out directly to any investor could be considered harassment.
Investors are not children. Investors are not animals. Investors are adults. Interfering in an investor's choice or reaching out directly to any investor could be considered harassment.
wa5
Well-Known Member
I certainly havnt contacted anybody who has funded with this campaign. I may have exchanged a few words with them on sites such as this one... I think Ivars dishonesty is an important issue, I will continue to scream that from the rooftops. so that potential funders can have a chance to learn something they may not be aware of before committing their money to a questionable campaign.
PowerMe, do you sail? would you take issue with those annoying pesky light houses frying your retinas and ruining your sleep with their annoying fog horns, or do you see them as a warning device to help alert you to possible danger.. I guess somebody who knows how to navigate wouldn't NEED such a warning. ....
PowerMe, do you sail? would you take issue with those annoying pesky light houses frying your retinas and ruining your sleep with their annoying fog horns, or do you see them as a warning device to help alert you to possible danger.. I guess somebody who knows how to navigate wouldn't NEED such a warning. ....
@PowerMe, are you really suggesting that if you knew of a scam - and funders were being deliberately misled, you would adopt a "none of my business I am not getting involved" attitude? I do not feel responsible for any funder, however I feel it is right to share observations and what I know about the Campaign for sure.
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