Sondors Fact Finding. Due Diligence. Scrutiny.

Fake sets? Nope, real factory, a real bike factory. Hows this for a theory, either a straight up bribe to set up a few shots, in a few factories. OR "Hi, I'm Storm, number one USA bike seller, Would like to buy some bikes from you (mentions Five Million Dollars) .. can I take some pictures please "for the investors".. Oh by the way, these are the bikes I want to produce, have your technicians look at them".... Sets up a few shots, Goes and does the same at a tool and die shop, and goes to the trouble of actually ordering the dies, "don't worry about finishing them off buddy, they are just a prop" and drip feeds the pictures of all this to the wood ducks over the next month or so...

George, I do have other things in my life, but yep, this train wreck does interest me.
 
Why pick a fight with A2? Pay them, and he has total access to all the money. Pull it out, head for Brazil. He should be there now. The fight with A2.0 may tie up the money, and he started that when he wrote the rubber checks. He needed A2 to maintain the idea everything was fine. Why pick a fight with Hopp? Hopp didn't have a contract. He could have paid Hopp pocket change and let the total get to 4 million, whatever, and he's gone.

Again, he's just sucked you into his world. Who cares? At this point, he builds the bikes or he doesn't. He doesn't have to pretend to build bikes. He could return some money to IGG, walk away, and say he's done with this project. Then what? IGG has those insurance contracts. A2 would have to hire someone to build the bike.

The bike may be done. Sondors pulled money out in February, but not big chunks.

If it's a con he should have millions and be in a safe place.
 
I have never been called........ a serial critic before! Pass me the tissues and give me a hug.

Since the moment I got banned from the Storm ebike Facebook page for asking questions these developments have intrigued me - have you ever read all the Chapters of a book but the last one @George S. ?!!? Quite simply I find it fascinating that people have thrown money at this when after doing a bit of research I wanted to stay well away. Never had an ebike, but quickly got up to speed with the main issues....

With my business I spend a lot of time on a computer negotiating and dealing with people throughout the world, and this is light relief. I engaged in other forms of light relief but my wife caught me and said if she ever saw me in the act again she would cut my hands off, so it's for my own health, self-preservation and safety I post.

and George.... my understanding is that IGG are still withholding $2.1million....

@George S. Olenik claims in his submission to the Cal Court that Sondors has all the money, I don't know who to believe, I noted Olenik claimed he was responsible for raising x million in the second wave, most of it was shipping perks!!
 
Last edited:
EULITTLB said:
I have never been called........ a serial critic before! Pass me the tissues and give me a hug.

Since the moment I got banned from the Storm ebike Facebook page for asking questions these developments have intrigued me - have you ever read all the Chapters of a book but the last one @George S. ?!!?
Click to expand...

He has if he is reading the game of thrones series! At this point this is just a cliff hanger. To be honest the one sided scepticism here isn't nearly as entertaining without the rabid fanboy-ism that endlessly carries on in the igg comments.

The popcorn has grown stale. Why not just let this play out?
 
Personally Paul this story is going to run and run, tip-of-the-iceberg stuff - and the Lawsuit will put in the Public Domain all the info that has been withheld to date......
 
I'll take it on the chin, but you obviously don't frequent ES much, they make me look small fry! I must double my efforts!!!

I just read Oleniks' submission to the California Court here - http://www.crowdfundinsider.com/2015/04 ... raud-case/

This in my view, is worth singling out - if I was a funder I would be calling my credit card company for a Chargeback now.

In reviewing Sondors’ declaration, it has become very clear that he never intended to abide by the terms of the contract. To the contrary, he used our services and always intended to refuse payment. Further, based upon his declaration, previous statements and other facts, it is clear that Sondors is moving monies out of the country and he is going to liquidate and /or hide all of his funds. Sondors has personally received all of the funds from the Campaign, excluding the fee changed (sic) by Indiegogo.com. He currently has a judgment against him for fraud, which he has failed to pay and he continues to evade collection efforts. I further believe that Sondors may be using monies that belong to the campaign backers and Agency 2.0 to fund all of his personal expenses, because I believe his is insolvent….
 
Last edited:
@biknut - I am limited to a few comments a day on IGG and am unable to respond there. The statement and response are worth posting here. You wrote:

Philip Hillis
26 minutes ago
Ian, Storm said he has every intention of paying 2.0 everything that’s owed them, after the bikes are manufactured, and all the costs are known.

In response it is not me or you who needs convincing of this, it is Olenik and Agency 2.0. I do not know who to believe what has been contractually agreed or who the Californian Courts will side with, if you read the allegation above at point 20 of Oleniks statement it is damning and your claim has little worth. Is Ivars stating that or are you?

@Bruce Choate you make me laugh when you refer to me as an Internet Bully and a Troll when it is you who is trying to dampen alarming concerns about the Sondors Campaign; my posts reflect concerns and the truth, I won't be put off by your banter.

@Bruce Choate
39 minutes ago
LOL even the ranks on EBR are getting tired of the TROLLs rantings.

Where Bruce? You are conspicuous by your absence here, why are you stating such things and why do you refer to me as a Troll? Does the pending Lawsuit and John Hopp being estranged fill you with such confidence? Or is it the pictures of two bikes that make you believe thousands of motors and batteries and frames have been produced? Why no pictures?
 
Last edited:
EULITTLB said:
@biknut - I am limited to a few comments a day on IGG and am unable to respond there. The statement and response are worth posting here. You wrote:

Philip Hillis
26 minutes ago
Ian, Storm said he has every intention of paying 2.0 everything that’s owed them, after the bikes are manufactured, and all the costs are known.

In response it is not me or you who needs convincing of this, it is Olenik and Agency 2.0. I do not know who to believe what has been contractually agreed or who the Californian Courts will side with, if you read the allegation above at point 20 of Oleniks statement it is damning and your claim has little worth. Is Ivars stating that or are you?

@Bruce Choate you make me laugh when you refer to me as an Internet Bully and a Troll when it is you who is trying to dampen alarming concerns about the Sondors Campaign; my posts reflect concerns and the truth, I won't be put off by your banter.
Click to expand...

I don't think that more than 4 or 5 of the 7000 bike funders come here and although the above mentioned at least monitor this site, as well as Sondors team does, I think that you have made your point by now at least with the main Sondors Fan Boys and girl. Why not give it a rest over there for awhile and as I indicated earlier I predict that soon the 7000 people that have invested in this will start to bicker amongst themselves. Which I can pretty much guarantee will be more entertaining that the repetitive bickering you are instigating on there now.

I have been no fan of this campaign since the previews started showing up on my FB page months ago FYI but the time to keep stirring the pot is over as the die is cast, the money is disbursed and now it is time to watch it boil over on its own.
 
JRA said:
I don't think that more than 4 or 5 of the 7000 bike funders come here and although the above mentioned at least monitor this site, as well as Sondors team does, I think that you have made your point by now at least with the main Sondors Fan Boys and girl. Why not give it a rest over there for awhile and as I indicated earlier I predict that soon the 7000 people that have invested in this will start to bicker amongst themselves. Which I can pretty much guarantee will be more entertaining that the repetitive bickering you are instigating on there now.

I have been no fan of this campaign since the previews started showing up on my FB page months ago FYI but the time to keep stirring the pot is over as the die is cast, the money is disbursed and now it is time to watch it boil over on its own.
Click to expand...

I would have left it alone but wanted to state for fact the claims of Olenik and I can't because I am limited to a few comments a day - I only had the other half of the paragraph above to post. Even I am getting bored, it has all gone tits up as I said it would in one way or another, writing is on the wall - maybe I should save my energies for May 6th and beyond.

Do you think I will make any more enemies if I throw my soiled underwear in pacquaio's corner? :)
 
well all the documentation in the most recent crowdfund insider article are certainly interesting. 80% of the included 2.0 documentation is bloat, self serving and not applicable to the case at hand (the articles referencing discussion about the very case for which they submitted the documentation are particularly amusing!)

Most interesting would be section 5 of their brief one page contract: Arbitration. Any disputes arising from the contract are to be mediated through arbitration. And yet here we have agency 2.0 filing a civil law suit, with 50 pages of documents showing no evidence of their attempt to arbitrate the matter with Sondors.

The rest of the contract is too much in favor of 2.0 imho.

It wouldn't surprise me to see a judge conclude that since 2.0 was advertising the sale of the bike, they could be due only 10% of the proceeds of the # of bikes sold, and not percentages of costs paid by contributors for shipping or the purchase of batteries sold through the campaign (if I were sondors that would be my argument anyway). I also doubt they would receive compensation for attorney fees either as they bypassed the arbitration clause of their own contract. A judge might also not like the $200/day plus 5% monthly interest for non-payment - 60% apr could be considered usury. I also wonder how often they paid for advertising and marketing with explicit consent of Sondors - the only document they provided was an email from towards the end of the original campaign discussing the extension. They will need a lot more supporting documentation on May 6th.

Meanwhile you have Sondors showing evidence of preparing to send product to the consumer. We can argue til the cows come home about whether any of that is legit (I have no say either way), but a consumer oriented judge is not going to lend a sympathetic ear to 2.0.

Alright, enough arm-chair lawyering for the evening!
 
George S. said:
If it's a con he has the money, certainly millions. If it's a con he would have paid off Agency to keep them happy. If it's a con, he'd be in Brazil.

Maybe he's in Brazil. So he's on a 'set' he's made, and he's hired a bunch of Asian actors, and he pretends he is making bikes. Why? There's no extradition. He won't make much more money. He's creating more media attention when he'd want to quietly slip away. Isn't the con over when you pack all the money in a bag?

Surely you realize you are devoting your life to this man? What could possibly be in it for you? In a sense you and the other serial critics are the ones being led down the garden path. You can't let go of it.

Sondors has drawn everyone, especially Chris, into his world, and he's not playing by your rules.

I think he'll build the bike because I think he cares about the bike. I think he posts idiotic updates because he likes being the center of attention. I think he hates A2 and he'll work long and hard to screw A2, even if he blows off the court system. He's already running from court judgments. What's another one or two? Do you think he wants money?

You could say Sondors has a social disability, but there seems to be a lot of pathology. The problem A2 created was that Sondors can do the China stuff, the manufacturing. When they made him into the Surfer/Action Figure celebrity, and it was entirely fabricated, they were left with a very fragile man in charge of all the assets, and then making the bike. That was an unbelievably bad decision.
Click to expand...

Agreed George. All the hate and the ranting hasn't affected a single person or hurt Sondors sales.

So basically these people are just confused and. Helpless
 
The contract is poorly written;

1) Under payment terms, a better contract would have consideration due at signing
2) There are lots of things wrong with the contract

The only issues at hand will be;

1) Was there a contract?
2) Venue

Also; Who has "clean hands"
1) The guy who bounces checks; and does not meet his obligations to pay
2)The guy who does lots of work, and does so very well.
3) etc..

Perhaps
1) Urgency and impact

The response to the motion is also poorly considered

1) Storm is arguing that there is no written contract! see Hopp

Hopp lacking the capacity to sign a contract, not being an officer of the corporation, therefore there is no contract between A2.0 and Pacific Storm.

2) He is saying that he is busy at work in China (setting himself up as a no-show)
3) Storm could have said, we have a dispute so lets arbitrate; the court would likely dismiss the motion in that arbitration is the proper and agreed venue for solving the dispute and Agency 2.0 would be in a very poor tactical position. Big companies routinely, and unconscionably, use arbitration clauses to deny the remedy of a court to consumers and employees. Arbitration would be nightmare because only one party (Agency 2.0) is likely to pay for it.

3) He is saying Agency 2.0's motion is Ex Parte, without notice; only justified in an urgent case (Could be used by Storm to bide time)

Here is where Storm was idiotic;

You cannot arbitrate a contract that does not exist. We have one party saying there was breach of contract and the other saying there is no written contract; just a verbal contract of some kind.

After a delay, or even a few delays by Storm, the court/judge will determine whether or not there is a contract (the one signed by Hopp in writing, or a verbal contract)

There definitely is a written contact (as Agency 2.0 has presented), an offer was given, both parties provided consideration, both parties accepted consideration, and there was mutual intent, and mutuality to benefit and obligation. Storm accepted the work of A2.0 and had the capacity to do so. Agency 2.0 provides a service, Storm pays for the service. There is mutual assent in offer and acceptance, consideration in the form of work provided and monies (bounced and paid back), capacity by Storm and proved by emails, and legality.

Once the issue as to whether or not a contract exists has been argued and answered, the next question that could be raised is venue.. A court is likely to say that this issue is already "here" and that the issue of contractual breach is simple.

At that point sections of the contract might be contested by Storm. The burden for invalidating an individual term will most likely reside with Storm, and it will most likely be heard from the perspective of "at the time of signing." {there is another missing, basic type, of clause in the contract} A2.0 is not asking for liquidating damages, yet.

If you bought a bike, my suggestion is charge it back on your credit card, do a paypal dispute, ask Storm for a refund, and ask Indigogo for a refund. It is clear that Storm conducts himself , and his business, in a spurious manner complete with baggage and unnecessary drama. He is no different than the many deadbeats I have encountered in a long career. If you bought a bike you have purchased an incomplete product in that it will not be properly supported. Solve the problem by looking for a refund.

With your refund, Buy one of the many (zero drama) bikes reviewed on this site. Deal with people that are honest and working in good faith.
 
Last edited:
@pxpaulx Such a move at a crucial juncture of the Campaign with bikes yet to be shipped is borne out of desperation imo - I refer to point 20, detailed above. The fact is with regards to money, it appears that the game is over, everyone has packed up and gone home and this leaves Agency 2.0 in an unenviable position. I agree it is arguable 10% may be due of bikes sold, however it is equally arguable that the percentage split was based on the total amount of funds raised. Best get the popcorn machine going again, but still there is nothing to convince me personally that there is any large-scale manufacturing/production or assembly taking place or that the claimed performance has not been totally misleading and inaccurate. Those handlebar spacers, on what was a decent looking bike admittedly, are awful imo.
 
Llcjay said:
Agreed George. All the hate and the ranting hasn't affected a single person or hurt Sondors sales.

So basically these people are just confused and. Helpless
Click to expand...

An ebike campaign isn't worthy of my hatred, just my interest. If I want to bring peoples attention to matters that are glossed over or otherwise unclear I'll continue to do so, I have no intention whatsoever to hurt Sondors Sales (as a point, Olenik referred to Chargebacks hurting the Campaign in his Statement to the Court). I have no commercial interest in this whatsoever, just a personal one.

I felt I nearly got burnt, and I wish to warn other would-be backers - in life there are those who would meekly walk away and not say a thing and others who will look out for consumers who act in good faith and bring their attention to matters to try and stop them getting burnt. That is the difference. And an important one.

@FTC Complaint an admirable post, but not perfect - Breech is spelt Breach surely? :)
 
FTC ....your otherwise decent post did not make reference to the bounced cheques reportedly ranging from $20k-$90k. I speak with some knowledge from the UK where a cheque is a promise to pay the bearer and is only unenforceable in the event of fraud or duress. At a minimum Ivars is getting to have to dig deep into his pockets and get his hands on the money of others to pay $160k in the interim, it would appear that Ivars wishes to pay Agency 2.0 a percentage of the profits, which are easily written-down.

Philip Hillis or @biknut - in what capacity for Ivars I do not know, maybe imaginary spokesperson (?) has posted the following - Ian, Storm said he has every intention of paying 2.0 everything that’s owed them, after the bikes are manufactured, and all the costs are known.

So this appears to be a clear admission that funds are owed anyway, not entirely sure what weight this statement carries.
 
If I don't like a TV show, I don't watch it, if you don't like my comments, don't read em :). I post about the Sondors campaign here and elsewhere because I would hope that my writings (or crazed ramblings) might save just one person from throwing their money away on this disaster, I talk about it here with a few like minded people in an attempt to learn more about the issue.. and I follow all news about this in a vain hope that Storm will deliver the bike he promised... (never happen)...

"Why don't you walk away, you havn't invested in the bike?"... because I don't like seeing people ripped off, that why. I think this Quote from Frank Herberts' DUNE says it quite nicely.
"You've heard of animals chewing off a leg to escape a trap? There's an animal kind of trick. A human would remain in the trap, endure the pain, feigning death that he might kill the trapper and remove a threat to his kind."
I don't wish to kill Sondors, but I do wish to remove his hreat to others of my kind.
 
Exhibit I

Thu Feb 5 2015 11:05AM

From Storm Sondors

Dear Chris,
We understand the barrage of questions you are facing. We also understand the potential to increase sales by being responsive to each and every consumer.

….

We will do our best to answer questions and contribute in any way we can to eliminate reduce potential friction that might avert greater sales. Accountability to existing and potential clients is critical.

@biknut hope this addresses your claim that Agency 2.0 were deficient/negligent in answering questions........ and don't warrant getting paid what was contractually agreed.
 
Last edited:
NYT article speaks to the "emotional drama" of a "failed" and/or "failing" Crowdfunding campaign, and it also speaks to how folks are overly invested (via the kickstarter message board) in the whole process. (see Eulittlb on Indiegogo)

The article goes on to say that Kickstarter used to require participants to deliver a product or provide a refund. Now, since October, they require either delivery or an explanation. They go onto say how participants in the funding have NO rights! or recourse.

Financially, and even more so with fees and litigation, Storm cannot deliver a product with post sales support, product liability insurance, and that meets regulatory requirements. Storm, Agency 2.0 and Indiegogo were made aware of the complexity of fulfilling this product.

Sondors, selling a known Chinese product, you are well within your rights, and entitled to a full or partial refund either from Storm or from Indiegogo.
 
Last edited:
Have you got a link please? I stole your line on IGG, and yes I am passionate about not getting ripped off or seeing others get ripped off. So shoot me.

(I cannot find any such article)
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

D
Nireeka triple charged me for 1 ebike
Replies
15
Views
4K
shiruba
S
Back