Some motors at 2300W cutting out intermittently

[pushkar]

All : This is more a PSA at the moment.

1. We have had reports of people with 2300W motors that cut out sporadically.
2. The motor is on, display is on, throttle works, but motor provides no assist.
3. Happens mostly on 2300W version

We have now had a few people running into this - @Acme @Leon S. Kennedy, and one more rider in Canada. There may.

What we have debugged so far
1. Customers are facing this issue with different batteries and motors.
2. Appears to happen on the 2300W version of the motor (anything above 2000W basically) and happens at low speeds.
3. Problem goes away for a little bit after the motor is rebooted.

What is common ?
1. So far the common thing across this is a batch of controllers we installed in Dec /Jan / Feb.
2. We have not seen this issue with the new batch of controllers we received a last week.

Short term solution
1. We will swap motors with the new batch of controllers to existing customers.

Longer term solution
1. We are trying to replicate this in Germany.
2. We will issue firmware UPDATE once we can replicate and fix this.



Note: @Leon S. Kennedy @Acme You were not making this up. Thanks for your patience. This is not a battery specific thing looks like. Apologies for taking this long to get back.

 

[Acme]

Thank you Pushkar,

I have also recently been in contact with Kim Womack. He seems very tight with Rico, I believe they are both in Germany. I really like it when companies are transparent, take responsibility for problems and attempt to remedy them. This says a lot more about a company than anything I can think of and is rare in our current climate of shortages with the take it or leave it answer.
Gary

 

[pushkar]

Oh nice. Kim has been working on some future projects with Rico.

The batch of boards is common for that problem. So far in the new boards, I haven't seen any issues in the first 2-3 bikes we put through. Hoping this is the last of it. Will keep updating the thread as we progress.

 

[Acme]

Thank you Pushkar.
is the 2300w board different than the 1000w board or is it just your programming.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

Thanks Pushkar. Much appreciate this thread

 

[pushkar]

Thank you Pushkar.
is the 2300w board different than the 1000w board or is it just your programming.

Same board, different batch.

 

[FastBikes]

If it's a software issue (and if it helps speed things along -- not sure if my Frame has been painted yet) I'd be fine with the 1000W for now, and can download the update when it's ready

 

[pushkar]

Initial hunch is the batch of boards from late last year.

 

[pushkar]

OK. big update here. We believe we have finally tracked this down ! Yay.

Issue 1 : Stripped temperature controller sensor wire (black wire stripped)
Note : this picture shows the wire after we pulled out to check. Typically this part is hidden under the aluminum grooves and only a short length is easily visible. So it is hard to "see" this issue without pulling the entire cable. In over 90% of the cases where motors that had that issue, the temp sensor wire is the core issue. We have reached out to Bafang and given them the lot numbers to check. We have another 100 or so motors and we will check this for everyone as we do the upgrades.
Further, there are cases where the wires may appear to be "good" but have slightly uneven ptotection. As the motor gets hot over a period of time, the issue starts to exhibit itself.
Solution : Add protective / insulation sleeve to the temp controller wire. Even if we see no obvious damage.



Issue 2: Damaged Yellow (power) wire
This picture does NOT show the damage but you can see that the yellow wire is slightly rubbing against the frame, and is kinda bent. This is our installation issue. After we put the cover back on, the yellow wire may bend and start rubbing.
Solution : Add protective / insulation sleeve to all wires. Improve re-assembly process.


Why didn't we catch this earlier ?
1. The motor activates and calibrates fine. All functions work.
2. We are able to "bench test" the motor at full throttle for 5-10 minutes.

When does the issue present itself?
We can replicate this when there is significant load and significant power being driven into the motor - e.g. 2300W, going uphill, at higher assist levels (even eco 3).

We have a case where a motor with intermittent cutouts was put on another bike and works just fine. It is likely that shipping / re-installing the motor may have shifted the temp controller wires, so we were unable to diagnose if there was any issue to begin with. It is intermittent and that it was hard to replicate. Esp so since we didn't check the hidden portion of the temp controller cabling.


Resolution
1. If riders have an issue with the motor, we are fairly confident that we can help resolve this even over the phone (if that is ok with the rider). if not, we can swap out the motor.
2. We are adding the steps to inspect wires closely, and also add protective and insulation sleeves for all wires we can get to.

What can riders do (whether they use Archon X1 or not)?
If riders want to take steps to protect their own motors (regardless of whether you have our controller or not) for longer term peace of mind, please use this tape instead of typical insulation tape. It is a little expensive than electrical tape but is rated for abrasion, pinching etc.

Here is a direct link. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08239PWL7/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

We will be going through all motors to ensure bikes we ship out don't have an issue.

 

[Acme]

Congratulations Pushkar, persistence always pays off. On the other hand this is going to slow down like an hour a motor. 100 motors is 100 hours.
Please keep in the loop, we all appreciate your efforts.
Gary

 

[reed scott]

If we have to do this ourselves isn't there a gasket problem?

 

[pushkar]

If we have to do this ourselves isn't there a gasket problem?

So far, we haven’t run into a gasket issue. If you tear it, please ping me and I can ship you a replacement.

 

[reed scott]

So far, we haven’t run into a gasket issue. If you tear it, please ping me and I can ship you a replacement.

Pushkar please check your emails. Thanks

 

[Cuz Vinny]

Would this issue be one bikes that were just shipped like mine and other members who just got their bikes?

 

[greeno]

Just a heads up the tape spec'ed out is for temp protection and has ZERO electrical insulating properties. All it will do is provide a cushion around the wire.

 

[Acme]

Just a heads up the tape spec'ed out is for temp protection and has ZERO electrical insulating properties. All it will do is provide a cushion around the wire.

??? If it gets wet to the point it becomes saturated it will not provide good insulation, other than that it will provide great protection and it will stick better than standard PVC electrical tape In an environment where parts are subject to movement. Perhaps the wires could be covered with scotchkote prior to tap application.?
Gary

 

[pushkar]

Just a heads up the tape spec'ed out is for temp protection and has ZERO electrical insulating properties. All it will do is provide a cushion around the wire.

I’ll update my recommendation. If wire is damaged, use insulation and then wrap with this tape.

 

[Acme]

I posted this information on the G510 Group on Facebook and I’ve already had two people reply that they have the exact same issue PAS not working with standard Bafang controllers, they opened their motor and found the same stripped wires. This must be widespread.

 

[Leon S. Kennedy]

I got the new motor from Pushkar and installed it and it works much better than the old motor. No more cutouts, much better power, and much less noise. Too bad I didn't see the info on this thread before I installed the new motor or I would have taken these protective measures prior to installing the new motor. If the problem reoccurs, I'll try this out, but for now I don't want to open up the motor.

Pushkar, I will mail you back my old motor. Maybe you can see if it had a similar problem.

 

[greeno]

A buddy of mine got the 2300w version around the end of last year and all was good until just recently it started losing assist while riding not 100% loss but enough to be a problem. So knowing about this issue from here we decided to investigate further. I had previously got some controller side gaskets so we would be prepared if we needed them.
We removed motor from bike and placed it on my workbench to make the task easier and see if we could locate any cause for the cutting out.
First we removed the right side crank arm and pedal. Next we pulled the snap ring and used the special socket for the spider locknut and removed them both. Lastly we removed the allen head bolts that hold the casing on and then lightly tapped all around and the side lifted off with no issues. Laying the controller half on it's side we could see the temp sensor wires and they were already taped up with fiberglass tape so we removed that to inspect and all was fine so we replaced with new 3m fiber tape that I had and then we noticed a cut in one of the phasing wires insulation, the yellow one to be specific.

So we wrapped some Scotch 33+ tape around it and everything else looked good. The lube level looked fine and didn't see any evidence of abuse or wear for that matter so we buttoned it back up. Remounted back on bike and made sure it powered up before securing everything back to original condition. Were riding tomorrow so hopefully we can see if that had any bearing on the shutting down or not. He has a couple of other bikes so If he had to send it back to WW for warranty it wouldn't kill him.
All the hubbub about having to have "Spare" gaskets before opening up was in my opinion not needed as the original one was perfectly fine and came apart with little effort .
Of course I had to got six spares that I will probably never use but better safe than sorry I guess.
Opening up these for maintenance is E A S Y don't be intimidated just be organized and keep it clean and your golden. Swapping out controllers or gearing for that matter would be a snap to IMO. Anyway wanted to inform.