Solid State Batteries - deep-dive discussion video w/ Sean Mitchell of All Things EV

so here's the dual carbon battery promo video,
FlatSix911 said:
Interesting reading... https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/batteries

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We have many new techs in the works..
MIT's Carbon Dioxide Battery
University of Adelaide's non-toxic zinc and manganese
and who knows what this Nikola's free-standing electrode automotive battery is all about...
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-5-biggest-battery-innovations-of-2019/


dual carbon battery
 
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Ravi Kempaiah said:
Thanks for our comment. I mainly do research on next-gen cathodes and will be moving to electrolytes this year to enable ultra-fast charging of batteries.
Battery research is much harder than people realize. It takes a long time from idea to perfecting that idea to execution at commercial scale.
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very good yes the electrolyte as a solid is fascinating and took me some time to grasp the concept (I really don't know nothing.)
but all these new dielectric compound and uses for them.... again fascinating
.. keep up the good work..
 
I'd like to see batteries that have:
No flammable electrolyte
No heavy metals
4 to 5 times higher density than current li-ion
Charge faster by a factor of 3, than current fast charger for ebikes
And more compact

That is, criteria for ebikes. Large vehicles like 5000 lb cars or SUV's can have different criteria.

The biggest problem for large vehicles with over 75 kw packs, will be the impact of fast charging on electrical infrastructure, when society gets above a EV car population percent of 10 to 20 percent, or maybe even lower. You can't build back up energy storage with enough capacity at the super-charger to accommodate even more than a handful of cars, and the current electrical grid is not designed for those type of inrushes or inductive loads like that, without substantial modifications from the end use point all the way back to the power plant. Study up on reactive power and how the grid is having trouble handling the inductive loads we have today. Besides that, the US grid needs a minimum of $5 trillion, and some say near $25 trillion just to get us back to the proper reserve levels, and reliable specification levels we had back when the grid was new. Many locations have power lines more than 50 years old, woefully outdated substations, aging transmission lines, and stuff that should have been replaced decades ago. PG&E would be a classic case study for what happens when utilities have been derelict in their responsibility of maintaining their power grid. Deregulation starting 20 years ago, caused a major passing of the 'buck' in terms of these grids, that sit around and between the utilities, and it should not have taken something like forest fires to make people aware how vulnerable most utilities really are. PG&E is not announced isolated case. Texas has numerous problems,and grids in the northeast,and major cities all up and down the east coast are in need of massive pools of money just to get back to something resembling a reliable grid that you could actually add superchargers to.

Anyway the issues relating to batteries and energy density improvements go well beyond just the battery itself or even charging. Utilities if they had their way, would make you slow charge your car EV battery at night, at very low amperage draws, rather than any fast charging or charging during the day, so they would not have to shut down or part load their heavily polluting power plants, which get way worse at part load in terms of pollution, and don't like to be shut down at all for a multitude of reasons. Nukes have to be kept running 24/7 which is a whole different set of issues. Our grid may be better than many other countries but it's extremely primitive and outdated compared to the technology that has come on line drawing power from it every minute. Microgrids are a feeble attempt to address this. As are large battery banks. Really needs a wholesale top to bottom revamping. Solar and wind absolutely reek havoc on the power grid. Utilities sort of 'play along' due to the immense politics. The insider view is not pretty.
 
Part of this discussion is about recycling old batteries. It may be a very, very long time before I do that. As the battery capacity gradually drops on older packs I'll probably purchase newer ones, but as long as they hold a charge I'll probably keep using the older packs too. Using older battery packs for shorter rides, to save wear and tear on the newer packs, that sort of thing.
 
Deleted Member 4210 said:
[...]
The biggest problem for large vehicles with over 75 kw packs, will be the impact of fast charging on electrical infrastructure, when society gets above a EV car population percent of 10 to 20 percent, or maybe even lower. You can't build back up energy storage with enough capacity at the super-charger to accommodate even more than a handful of cars, and the current electrical grid is not designed for those type of inrushes or inductive loads like that, without substantial modifications from the end use point all the way back to the power plant.
[...]
Study up on reactive power and how the grid is having trouble handling the inductive loads we have today. Besides that, the US grid needs a minimum of $5 trillion, and some say near $25 trillion just to get us back to the proper reserve levels, and reliable specification levels we had back when the grid was new.
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You seemed to start talking about power grids in general, and now you're talking about U.S. grids in specific. Maybe that's a U.S. problem? In Canada our power grids seem up to the task, the majority of our power is generated by hydro-electric and other renewables, and we even sell significant amounts of excess power to the U.S.

I imagine there are other countries with power grids up to the task too. So it sounds like it's not a global problem, at least.

[...]Utilities if they had their way, would make you slow charge your car EV battery at night, at very low amperage draws, rather than any fast charging or charging during the day, so they would not have to shut down or part load their heavily polluting power plants, which get way worse at part load in terms of pollution, and don't like to be shut down at all for a multitude of reasons.
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Aren't e-car owners charging at home for the most part? As the range on e-cars improves, the appeal of charging during the day will likely drop. Why pay for electricity when you're doing your errands when you can do it at home that night less expensively? If it were me, and especially if I lived in a jurisdiction that charged less for electricity in the middle of the night, I would want to charge an e-car overnight rather than during the day. Hopefully the charger can be set up to start charging at a certain time. Failing that, I might get in the routine of plugging it in to charge right before going to bed. I charge my e-bike on a timer already, so I don't know why I couldn't/wouldn't do the same with an e-car.

Nukes have to be kept running 24/7 which is a whole different set of issues. Our grid may be better than many other countries but it's extremely primitive and outdated compared to the technology that has come on line drawing power from it every minute. Microgrids are a feeble attempt to address this. As are large battery banks. Really needs a wholesale top to bottom revamping. Solar and wind absolutely reek havoc on the power grid. Utilities sort of 'play along' due to the immense politics. The insider view is not pretty.
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With all those criticisms, are you sure your grid is better than "many other countries"? Those are some pretty serious criticisms.

You might be right about everything you say, I can't and won't tell you otherwise. But I would have thought electric cars, especially to the degree that they're charged at night, would be a drop in the bucket compared to the total power draw. An e-car costs a few dollars a day to charge up for most consumers, doesn't it?
 
Ravi, Robert Llewellyn at the Fully Charged Show is pretty excited about a "silicon-dominant LiFe battery" for EVs that is being touted as providing 300 km on a 5 minute charge, 340 Wh/kg, and more recharging cycles. Whaddya think? Video
 
Bruce Arnold said:
Ravi, Robert Llewellyn at the Fully Charged Show is pretty excited about a "silicon-dominant LiFe battery" for EVs that is being touted as providing 300 km on a 5 minute charge, 340 Wh/kg, and more recharging cycles. Whaddya think? Video
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Funny you mention that Bruce!
I actually had a slide based on Enevate's work but did not include it in the video because of time constraints.
I am aware of Si-anode by Enevate and met the CTO at a battery conference last year. They did make pretty big claims last year at the conference and it looked promising.

Convincing conference audience is one thing but actually delivering said performance for a client who is investing millions of $$ is a totally different thing.

The issue with Si-anode, high energy batteries is still the cost. Although Si is one of the most abundant materials on earth, making a high-performance Si-anode at commercial scale is tough.

I am sure we will see Si-dominant anodes in the coming years. Actually, the anode used in Tesla Model 3 has some Si in it already!
 
During discussions, I often get asked, hey what about graphene or solid state batteries?

If those technologies were viable, companies like Tesla would have used them. They are the largest producer and consumer of Li-ion batteries in the world.
In today's world, it is hard to discern between hype and fact. This leads to so much confusion.

A more realistic overview of this technology is shared in this video.

 
If new battery technology isn't currently close to production, then all of this is just speculation, scientific or not. Have to agree that no matter what new battery technologies come about, don't look for any price savings. It doesn't work that way.

At some point the world, meaning you and me, will have to deal w/ all the pollution that comes from mining lithium and using dirty power plants to charge them. It may be that it's actually more damaging to the earth using electric vehicles rather than having a super efficient ICE power plant. The only way around this is by going to solar and wind for our electrical power. The disposal of depleted lithium batteries is another big problem. Just as many US cities are now taxing electric cars at point of sale to make up for the loss of road upkeep taxes paid through gas sales, we might find ourselves having to pay a tax to go towards cleaning up our mess from increased electric eBike sales and usage. The easiest way to do this would be to tax the battery, so battery costs may go up not down.

Speaking of costs, eBike costs on almost every component are artificially skewed because they are made in China. Personally, I would prefer to see more production done domestically even if it costs more money. It's just crazy how this has been happening for so long w/o any big tariffs being put in place by world governments.

I'm happy w/ the current battery technology and costs. They're great value for the money.

Let's not forget that it's impossible to correlate any data between electric or hybrid cars and eBikes due to the vast differences in power, range, weight and usage. Adding another 50 LB of battery to a car is negligible, but even 1/5th of that extra weight on an eBike can be a deal killer.

I follow racing, and once built and raced my own vehicles. My understanding of engineering and physics is pretty good, and comes from actually building things and seeing how they perform in the real world. In that regard, eBikes are more like race cars, not production autos. It's all about low weight, power and efficiency. There's little to no crossover of technologies between the electric car in someone's garage and their eBike. Too much technology can be worse than older, more primitive technology. KISS, keep it simple stupid. With eBikes this is very useful because we're dealing with technologies that are well over a century old. Spoke wheels, rubber tires and tubes full of compressed air, a chain and sprockets for gearing (for heaven's sake!), and electric motors and batteries. That's it baby. Stone age stuff.
 
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steve marino said:
At some point the world is going to have to deal w/ all the pollution that comes from mining lithium and using coal fired power plants to charge them. It may be that it's actually more damaging to the earth using electric vehicles rather than having a super efficient ICE power plant.
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Coal is on the decline in most of the US, despite the current administration trying to prop it up. Coal plants are closing let and right. Where I am, California, coal is only about 3% of the power grid.

There is no such thing as a "super efficient ICE power plant." Cars are about 35% efficient unless they are hybrids, which have batteries.
 
Mass Deduction said:
Aren't e-car owners charging at home for the most part? As the range on e-cars improves, the appeal of charging during the day will likely drop. Why pay for electricity when you're doing your errands when you can do it at home that night less expensively? If it were me, and especially if I lived in a jurisdiction that charged less for electricity in the middle of the night, I would want to charge an e-car overnight rather than during the day. Hopefully the charger can be set up to start charging at a certain time. Failing that, I might get in the routine of plugging it in to charge right before going to bed. I charge my e-bike on a timer already, so I don't know why I couldn't/wouldn't do the same with an e-car.
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Yes, we are. Everyone I know with an e-car does the majority charging from home. For us, personally, that is 100% of the time. I charge ours whenever I finish using it, and almost always it is fully charged for the next usage. Our utility company doesn't have fluctuating day/night rates, so there is no compulsion to charge at only certain times during the day.

I keep a running daily/monthly/yearly tally of costs - electric vs. gas - and our electric car costs only half of what our 50mpg Prius costs to run. Plus it is QUIET, and maintenance free. No oil, belts, spark plugs, etc. Safe to preheat in an enclosed garage, safe for a person to sleep in it overnight with the heater running. No deadly fumes at all.

My car can be set up to automatically charge at specific times during the day or night, and those times can be set up differently for different days of the week. That said, I usually don't bother waiting, and simply plug it in right after I get out of the car and let it start charging immediately. Once you start doing that on a regular basis, it becomes second nature. And if I forget to start the charge immediately (which involves a single push of one button on the dash or on the app on my cell phone), the automatic timer will see that the car is charged overnight to be full next morning...as long as I have it plugged in! One usually only forgets once to plug in for recharge, and then it becomes routine. Has app functions to do things remotely, too. I can preheat or precool the car while I'm elsewhere, and no one even knows it is on because it's dead silent.

Almost all our daily driving is done in the e-car because it is simply a phenomenal car to drive. It is peaceful, quiet, fast with insane torque, and just a pleasure to drive. It never visits a gas station unless I use it to transport the gas containers for our farm equipment.

I plug in my e-bikes after every use, too. No timer.
 
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Readytoride said:
Yes, we are. Everyone I know with an e-car does the majority charging from home. For us, personally, that is 100% of the time. I charge ours whenever I finish using it, and almost always it is fully charged for the next usage. Our utility company doesn't have fluctuating day/night rates, so there is no compulsion to charge at only certain times during the day.

I keep a running daily/monthly/yearly tally of costs - electric vs. gas - and our electric car costs only half of what our 50mpg Prius costs to run. Plus it is QUIET, and maintenance free. No oil, belts, spark plugs, etc. Safe to preheat in an enclosed garage, safe for a person to sleep in it overnight with the heater running. No deadly fumes at all.

My car can be set up to automatically charge at specific times during the day or night, and those times can be set up differently for different days of the week. That said, I usually don't bother waiting, and simply plug it in right after I get out of the car and let it start charging immediately. Once you start doing that on a regular basis, it becomes second nature. And if I forget to start the charge immediately (which involves a single push of one button on the dash or on the app on my cell phone), the automatic timer will see that the car is charged overnight to be full next morning...as long as I have it plugged in! One usually only forgets once to plug in for recharge, and then it becomes routine. Has app functions to do things remotely, too. I can preheat or precool the car while I'm elsewhere, and no one even knows it is on because it's dead silent.

Almost all our daily driving is done in the e-car because it is simply a phenomenal car to drive. It is peaceful, quiet, fast with insane torque, and just a pleasure to drive. It never visits a gas station unless I use it to transport the gas containers for our farm equipment.

I plug in my e-bikes after every use, too. No timer.
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Tesla?
 
2018 Leaf. 😁 Sweet little car that has completely won over my Detroit born SO. We both love it and it is pretty much the only car we drive now.

Next will be getting the Rivian truck in 2021, and selling the Ford F250 and the 2017 Prius 4 Touring (which is a nice car but does nothing but sit in the garage because we prefer to drive the electric car. Sadly, the Prius has been sitting so much that the 12v battery has died once already. We now have a battery charger on it once every 3 weeks if we don't get it out prior.)

Aim to have only electric vehicles in our lives by next year. No more gas/diesel ever again.
 
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