Solid State Batteries - deep-dive discussion video w/ Sean Mitchell of All Things EV

[Ravi Kempaiah]

There is a lot of interest in the solid state batteries which are touted to be the next big thing in the EV technology.
Several companies have invested millions and in some case billions of $$ into this research. There is much hype in the media but it could also lead to lot of disappointment for the innocent public.

Last week, Sean Mitchell and I did a deep dive video to discuss many aspects of solid state batteries and its current status. The video is a bit long but can be helpful.

I apologize for the poor audio. I just acquired a new mic and it should be better next time.

 

[Mulezen]

Graphene battery that recharges blazingly fast is already in the market - Gizmochina

The smartphone industry has been making a lot of progress in terms of technological enhancements since past few years and the one of the most crucial area of advancement is for the battery technology. We have heard about smartphone companies planning to adopt graphene batteries but none of the...

www.gizmochina.com

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Graphene battery that recharges blazingly fast is already in the market - Gizmochina

The smartphone industry has been making a lot of progress in terms of technological enhancements since past few years and the one of the most crucial area of advancement is for the battery technology. We have heard about smartphone companies planning to adopt graphene batteries but none of the...

www.gizmochina.com

Graphene has created a lot of sensation but it is yet to make it into the commercial market of EVs.

Tesla uses almost 40% of the world's Li-ion production and they would have used it if it had real commercial significance.

Graphite is still the preferred anode and I don't think that is going to change in the near future. Graphene production in large scale is almost impossible and the cost is just way too high.

We will see a lot of small companies trying to use "graphene" name to market their products.

 

[oojoe]

I think most of us are stuck using LiPo18650 and LiFePO4 packs for the next few years,,$$$$$$

 

[Ebiker01]

What about lithium air batteries , lithium /platinum or any Rate Earth metal cathode ? The mistake of making the assumption that it is very expensive is wrong.
There are unlimited resources to extract Gold, Platinium, Palladium , Diamonds etc...
We Take from the other planets in the very near future. Actually , the Diamonds , are plentiful here on the Ocean floor, is just the companies, Ex: Debeers falsifying the ads.

Then there are also the solar film or tape perovskite cells fast approaching 50-60% efficiency in labs.

 

[oojoe]

the price may come down on many of the new batteries in the next 10 years and I look forward to any tech capable of storing/converting into large amounts of electrons.
hydrogen fuel cell e-bikes would be interesting. but at what price....

 

[Ebiker01]

Mistake- Battery prices defintely will never come down significantly. There can always be a made up excuse or interest to keep it up !

For ex. a good Lg/Panasonic 18650 or 21700 cell is 3.50-5$. A 600-700wh pack has about 50-60of them. That's about 100$ for the cells leaving the factory. And about 175-250$(apply a profit Mark up on the 100$ value) buying them from a good source.
That 100$ worth of cells plus a 10$ BMS board becomes by MAGIC worthy of D. Copperfield a 700-1000$ pack. The R&D has been done , cost have been recouped many times over, they just want to suck a BIG profit pack after pack....


Actually Factoring inflation the pack will Only go UP .
There's less then 0.001% people who can make or at least understand on how to SAFELY make a lithium ion battery.
The others will have to pay Up and history is a great teacher :
Companies will always take advantage and increase prices as much as possible.

Bosch/Panasonic and all others will follow the script in order for their stock price to alway be as high as possible and to satisfy the greediness of their stock holders.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

If the prices don't come down, companies will go down.

Dyson lost at least 500 million $$ trying to build an electric car.
Faraday Future
Fisker
NIO

Mercedes spent millions of $$ to promote their EQC and it looks like they only sold 55 units in GERMANY.

Elektroauto Mercedes EQC: Nur 19 Autos im November zugelassen - WELT

Mit großem Aufwand bewirbt Mercedes sein lange erwartetes Elektro-Auto. Doch eine Recherche ergibt: Die Zulassungszahlen sind vernichtend. Das liegt vor allem an eigenen Versäumnissen des Herstellers.

www.welt.de

Once-deemed ‘Tesla killer’ Mercedes EQC flops with 55 units sold in Germany to date

Tesla appears poised to extend its reach into the heart of Das Auto, but it seems like Mercedes-Benz, a member of the old guard, may not be up to the task of meeting the young electric car maker’s challenge head-on. Daimler, for one, seems to be struggling in its home court, selling only 55...

www.teslarati.com

Whoever is able to build a solid EV at an affordable cost, will lead the market.

If someone thinks E-bike market is tough, it is like a child's play compared to the super tough car market.

@Ebiker01 ,

Can we please keep the topic of the thread intact?
if you have scientific info regarding solid state batteries, please share the link. If you have questions about the video, please feel free to ask.

 

[Ebiker01]

scientific info

What do you mean by scientific info ? Perhaps lock the thread into "scientists only" thread

 

[Mulezen]

My background is not tech based (Literature) but I regularly read consumer grade science publications. A year or so back probably on MIT’s site there was a piece on the impact of rapidly increasing computer power particularly on materials science like cathodes, solar panels coatings etc. I noted how your work is at the quantum level. How do you see this impact on your research?

 

[Ebiker01]

spent millions of $$ to promote their EQC

It will be pretty much 2-3Car companies left.

Just like with the phones, is either Apple or Samsung and then many cheaper smartphones in developing countries.

So Tesla and " ? " . MB pulled the EQC from US b/c their range is very low.
They are making a factory in Germany right where MB, VW, BMW , soon to be closed ICE factories are. Porsche has 190miles vs Model S 400miles.


It comes down to the battery range and of course improving the other many factors that affects it.

Same with our ebikes.

 

[Alex M]

Battery prices defintely will never come down significantly.

Hard to comment without defining the "significantly".

Battery packs with the same Panasonic cells are sold by dozens established ebike brands who in turn buy them from hundreds Chinese manufacturers fiercely competing with each other. Today LiPo and LiFe packs cost 20% less or are 20% bigger (for the same price) than 3-4 years ago. There is of course a bottom here somewhere.

Back to the topic, sort of - I wouldn't expect any other battery type appearing within my budget in the next 7-8 years

 

[oojoe]

I hope that was not to me you were referring...but
I think the price of the tech is staying on topic.. .
(If the audio was of better quality..video would be a 10... thank you ..)
comparing it to other tech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
and like I said one day they may have a hydrogen fuel cell e-bike..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

I can see super caps being used in/for regenerative motors and a good companion to the solid state battery.. when it comes into production..
161 years for the lead acid battery now...

thanks for post.
don't let the fear of trolling..scare you off
even negative attention is better than no attention at all,,, sometimes.....

 

[Mass Deduction]

It will be pretty much 2-3Car companies left.

Just like with the phones, is either Apple or Samsung and then many cheaper smartphones in developing countries.

So Tesla and " ? " . MB pulled the EQC from US b/c their range is very low.
They are making a factory in Germany right where MB, VW, BMW , soon to be closed ICE factories are. Porsche has 190miles vs Model S 400miles.


It comes down to the battery range and of course improving the other many factors that affects it.

Same with our ebikes.

With e-bikes we're seeing the number of companies growing, not shrinking. Why do you think the number of car companies will shrink so drastically?

As for batteries, there is interesting new capacitor technology in development. If they can get capacitor technology to the point that they can hold a charge for up to 24 hours, then we'll see smartphones at a minimum using them, if not e-bikes and e-cars. Avoiding the energy loss associated with charging up a battery is desirable, if we can get there.

 

[Asher]

Mistake- Battery prices defintely will never come down significantly. There can always be a made up excuse or interest to keep it up !

For ex. a good Lg/Panasonic 18650 or 21700 cell is 3.50-5$. A 600-700wh pack has about 50-60of them. That's about 100$ for the cells leaving the factory. And about 175-250$(apply a profit Mark up on the 100$ value) buying them from a good source.

lol you royally screwed up your math. $3.50-5/cell * 50-60 cells = $175-300, not $100.

I do agree that ebike battery prices are avariciously high.

The new-ish e-bike brand Ride1Up, with some great value Class 3 e-bikes, has 48v batteries for as little as $0.50 a watt hour. I was a Juiced fan but Juiced costs a lot more and its part choices beyond the motor/battery aren't the best.

Ride1Up battery: https://ride1up.com/product/17-5ah-battery/

 

[Ebiker01]

ou royally screwed up your math. $3.50-5/cell * 50-60 cells = $175-300, not $100.

I didn't wrote very clearly- when they leave the Panasonic or Lg factory they are not 3.50-5$/piece. Most likely 1-1.50$/cell, total cost around 60$-100$ for 50/60cells pack !

They are sold to a 3rd party and we can buy them at about 175-300$ total cost for 50-60cells.
That's IF you KNOW to build the pack . Most do not , the price RISES again to 700-1000$/pack.

Ride1Up- great entry level ebike/BIG problem not having dealers !
The buyer will be the tech. support and repair person .

 

[Ebiker01]

the number of car companies will shrink so drastically?

technology and efficiency.

Ex- in Us Camry and few other asian cars are best seller for being very reliable , affordable and high MPG.

Make an EV Camry with SSD batteries , 500miles range , 27 inch screen , 30min. charge time for under 25-27k. max. and it will be Toyota vs Tesla only.
There are also the gov. incentivies for buying EV.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

How do you see this impact on your research?

Thanks for our comment. I mainly do research on next-gen cathodes and will be moving to electrolytes this year to enable ultra-fast charging of batteries.
Battery research is much harder than people realize. It takes a long time from idea to perfecting that idea to execution at commercial scale.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

(If the audio was of better quality..video would be a 10... thank you ..)
comparing it to other tech
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supercapacitor
and like I said one day they may have a hydrogen fuel cell e-bike..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Thanks @oojoe ,
Supercapacitors for EVs is a topic of interest, especially for regen and acceleration.
We will see the deployment in small scales because the energy density of a supercapacitor is still 1/10th of a 18650 cell and the cost is too high.
So, unless the cost comes down, manufacturers would be reluctant to use it.

 

[FlatSix911]

Interesting reading... https://www.bloomberg.com/quicktake/batteries