Sodium-ion eBike Battery Packs

[Engelhorn]

E-BIKE SODIUM ION BATTERY PACKS - SAFE!

Engelhorn Tech introduces our first line of Sodium-ion Battery packs for electric bikes-skateboards. | Check out 'E-BIKE SODIUM ION BATTERY PACKS - SAFE!' on Indiegogo.

www.indiegogo.com

 

[Engelhorn]

 

[m@Robertson]

The benefits to sodium ion seem best when you are comparing to standard Li-NMC (fire, limited cycle life) that we use in ebikes today, but become significantly less attractive when comparing them to LFP.

The few vendors I have seen who announced sodium ion projects very quietly shelved them. The projects never made it to market.

I don't think this is a technology that will see success in the ebike realm, where weight is a significant deterrent. The lower energy density of both LFP and sodium ion creates batteries too heavy to be desirable versus the more common alternatives.

 

[Engelhorn]

The benefits to sodium ion seem best when you are comparing to standard Li-NMC (fire, limited cycle life) that we use in ebikes today, but become significantly less attractive when comparing them to LFP.

The few vendors I have seen who announced sodium ion projects very quietly shelved them. The projects never made it to market.

I don't think this is a technology that will see success in the ebike realm, where weight is a significant deterrent. The lower energy density of both LFP and sodium ion creates batteries too heavy to be desirvable versus the more common alternatives.

I would respectfully disagree, lithium has destroyed thousands of homes around the globe...the future of lithium is months not years. Elon Musk even said "he is switching to sodium-ion battery packs", read the news...I could post hundreds of articles proving sodium-ion is the better choice and future.

 

[Gordon71]

The benefits to sodium ion seem best when you are comparing to standard Li-NMC (fire, limited cycle life) that we use in ebikes today, but become significantly less attractive when comparing them to LFP.

The few vendors I have seen who announced sodium ion projects very quietly shelved them. The projects never made it to market.

I don't think this is a technology that will see success in the ebike realm, where weight is a significant deterrent. The lower energy density of both LFP and sodium ion creates batteries too heavy to be desirvable versus the more common alternatives.

I would think it would depend on how much weight you're talking about.

 

[m@Robertson]

"the future of lithium is months" is easily, demonstrably false. Painfully so. And the world has decided the limited risk of Li-NMC packs is livable given the very small incidence of fires versus the millions upon millions of packs in use around the globe. We live just fine with highly flammable gasoline tanks whizzing around in cars on the roads, too. Nobody is freaking out about that. If you want to sell your battery packs out of your Venice CA operation, sky-is-falling rhetoric isn't going to get you far.

Sodium ion has a future, but its in the future. Heck, according to your own Indiegogo page you have only been working with the cells you are putting into the packs you are trying to sell for 24 weeks.

I would think it would depend on how much weight you're talking about.

Well the cells he advertises on his Indiegogo page only have a weight of 37g, versus about 48g for a comparable 18650. So thats good, but they also only have a capacity of 1500mah. Compare an (old school) Panasonic GA cell which a lot of lower cost packs still use, that has a capacity of ... 3450 mah. Yikes one traditional cell stores more than double the energy of the Hakadi 18650's he is advertising for his packs.

So where does that shake out if you have to use double the cells from one pack versus another, but you are still getting less capacity? Bigger pack. Heavier. Less capacity still and its peak voltage is lower (A 52v pack using these Panasonic cells peaks at 58.8v whereas these Hakadi cells will peak at 56.0v.

I am skipping a lot of details here, but this should be enough to give you the idea. If you aren't afraid of your battery pack exploding because you know the risks, and manage them, then the impetus for putting a battery like this in a bicycle is significantly diminished (and if fire safety and quadrupled lifespan is what you want at the expense of weight, then LFP ebike packs are already out on the market and have been there for years).

 

[Gordon71]

"the future of lithium is months" is easily, demonstrably false. Painfully so. And the world has decided the limited risk of Li-NMC packs is livable given the very small incidence of fires versus the millions upon millions of packs in use around the globe. We live just fine with highly flammable gasoline tanks whizzing around in cars on the roads, too. Nobody is freaking out about that. If you want to sell your battery packs out of your Venice CA operation, sky-is-falling rhetoric isn't going to get you far.

Sodium ion has a future, but its in the future. Heck, according to your own Indiegogo page you have only been working with the cells you are putting into the packs you are trying to sell for 24 weeks.


Well the cells he advertises on his Indiegogo page only have a weight of 37g, versus about 48g for a comparable 18650. So thats good, but they also only have a capacity of 1500mah. Compare an (old school) Panasonic GA cell which a lot of lower cost packs still use, that has a capacity of ... 3450 mah. Yikes one traditional cell stores more than double the energy of the Hakadi 18650's he is advertising for his packs.

So where does that shake out if you have to use double the cells from one pack versus another, but you are still getting less capacity? Bigger pack. Heavier. Less capacity still and its peak voltage is lower (A 52v pack using these Panasonic cells peaks at 58.8v whereas these Hakadi cells will peak at 56.0v.

I am skipping a lot of details here, but this should be enough to give you the idea. If you aren't afraid of your battery pack exploding because you know the risks, and manage them, then the impetus for putting a battery like this in a bicycle is significantly diminished (and if fire safety and quadrupled lifespan is what you want at the expense of weight, then LFP ebike packs are already out on the market and have been there for years).

I've never been concerned about battery fires or a little extra weight when it comes to Ebikes. I do like the abundance of sodium vs lithium though.

 

[m@Robertson]

I do like the abundance of sodium vs lithium though.

Don't get me wrong... I want it to be true that they are a viable alternative. But reality doesn't care what we want, right?

We already have batteries. Nothing to be gained unless we decide to replace them. And notice some of those packs he is selling... 7.5ah to 15ah capacity in a big casing. No surprise why the capacities are low. The 30ah pack at the very bottom is a 'design to your specs' placeholder and basic math tells us already size issues won't let it work as advertised. Actually... come to think of it I can make a very direct illustration of why not.

This is a 30ah, 52v battery pack for my awd commuter bike. It uses Samsung 30Q cells. This frame is a Size 'L' and it has an unusually large triangle. Battery fits in that triangle snugly (and was custom built and designed specifically for this bike). Click images to embiggen.

We've already established that the Hakadi 18650's he is advertising have a 1500mah capacity (its shown on the Indiegogo page). The Samsung 30Q's have a capacity of ... 3000mah.

So my bigass 30ah 52v battery which barely fits into a Size L hardtail frame uses cells with double the storage capacity of those sodium ion cells. So you'd need 2x the 18650 cells I used to match capacity. Is it realistic to think you could make a 30ah 52v triangle battery that would fit any ebike, then?

This is why I am dismissing this all out of hand as 'wrong tool for the job'.

 

[Mulezen]

What’s to be gained by the new type of batteries emerging is much greater energy density…lighter weight…a durability that will outlast the owner…safer. I thought this bridge tech coming very soon (months) of a semi-solid state interesting.

For EVs, Semi-Solid-State Batteries Offer a Step Forward

Chinese automakers are rolling out batteries with gel electrolytes

spectrum.ieee.org

BYD is the largest EV company in the world. This a venture of theirs in Africa…

How BYD's EV batteries will soon power up tens of thousands of electric motorcycles

Electric motorcycles are likely not the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of BYD, the world’s leading electric...

electrek.co

 

[harryS]

I considered building an ebike battery with Sriko cells, but the capacity is so small. The battery would be almost twice as big and have half the AH. Tough sell. The Hidaki cells are 25% better. When they get another 25% improvement in capacity, I think they will take off.

Meanwhile, I see they offer a 36V7.5AH in a Dolphin case as a $329 indiegogo perk Compared to the 36V10AH Dolphin I bought in 2015 for $280, that seems attractive for the safety.

I am puzzled though by their 48V7,5AH Dolphin pack perk. If I got my numbers right, the 36V pack has 60 cells in a 12x5 and the 48V pack has 80 cells in a 16x5. I recently put together a 48V12Ah Dplphin battery using a commercial case and the same Samsung 30Q cells mentioned above. Mine used 52 cells. 13x4, and there might have been room for 60 w/o cell spacers. No way can I fit 80 cells.

Anyway, good luck. I think you'll be beat out by the chinese who can offer the above packs without having to go thru the tortuous crowd funded maze.

 

[m@Robertson]

What’s to be gained by the new type of batteries emerging is much greater energy density…lighter weight…a durability that will outlast the owner…safer. I thought this bridge tech coming very soon (months) of a semi-solid state interesting.

For EVs, Semi-Solid-State Batteries Offer a Step Forward

Chinese automakers are rolling out batteries with gel electrolytes

spectrum.ieee.org

BYD is the largest EV company in the world. This a venture of theirs in Africa…

How BYD's EV batteries will soon power up tens of thousands of electric motorcycles

Electric motorcycles are likely not the first thing that comes to mind when thinking of BYD, the world’s leading electric...

electrek.co

Yeah if you want to see where batteries are going longer-term, just look to the varieties of solid state that are either in the late stages of pilot production, with batches already in the hands of auto manufacturers (QuantumScape, backed by VW and other auto manufacturers being the one that gets most of the press) or are already just beginning full production for inclusion in domestic Chinese electric vehicles.

The bridge technology in the meantime for autos is LFP, with Tesla being an early adopter, and the lower cost of LFP cells being the big driver to how domestic Chinese EVs are hitting the market at such a low cost.

Sodium ion is likely better suited to stationary installations where weight and bulk is much less of an issue.