Shimano E8000 + ... Alfine 8? Rohloff Speedhub?

[speedub.nate]

I thought I was all set.

I retired my get-around street bike, a 2017 Raleigh Misceo ie with an E6000 motor and an 8-speed Alfine with electric Di2 shifting.

I kept the Misceo's rear wheel & Alfine, and outfitted the bike with a 9 speed derailleur prior to sale. It's done and gone.

The replacement bike is a Felt with a torquy E8000 motor. Guess what? The E8000 isn't compatible with the Alfine Di2 shifting. Boo Hoo.

So plan B is (obviously) switch to manual cable shifting, no biggie. I even have a spare, brand new Alfine sitting around that I can just re-lace into that wheel, and put the Raleigh's old Di2 Alfine on the shelf to await another project.

However... I've got this old mountain bike I'm about to sell. I built it with a Rohloff Speedhub. These hubs are bulletproof. I don't think I can sell the old mountain bike for more than the value is the hub, maybe $800 (given the current state of the analogue bike market, not to mention it's 20 years old).

14 speeds and 526% gear range are overkill for a lightweight commuter-type ebike, but shoot, I already own the dang hub. Should I just do it, or sell the Rohloff and stick with the Alfine plan?

 

[stompandgo]

Sell the Rohloff and fit the Felt with Deore XT Di2.

 

[Gionnirocket]

I absolutely love my Rohloff paired with a very torque_y Bafang m620.
That said I ride an suv style bike on/off road and to run errands as well as to exercise.
I don't think I can ever go back to a derailleur.
ymmv

 

[speedub.nate]

FWIW the Di2 derailleur option sounds interesting but I'm kind of a gear hub freak. The only derailleur I ride is my road bike. My other bikes are a collection of Speedhubs, Alfine, Nuvinci, a Spectro and a Pinion. I feel committed to the cause.

My winter project is going to be to electrify my cargo bike (currently an Xtracycle conversion), and the Speedhub on that bike is definitely staying with me. Easily justified for that usage.

So I wouldn't really be giving up on Rohloff if I sell this one. And in general, the Alfine on the Misceo was doing me just fine, though the Shimano Autoshift was terrible. Di2 shifting was a geeky cool factor, but I pretty much only used it in manual mode (pushbutton).

It wouldn't kill me to sell the Rohloff, pocket the dough, and stick with a cable actuated Alfine. It's such a reliable hub though... Gah, indecision!

 

[BlackHand]

You mentioned the Felt is a lightweight commuter? Sport E-50? Those seemed like nice bikes.

I don't know what the Rohloff gives you over the Alfine if you don't need the extra gearing besides making your bike a pound or 2 heavier.

It's not my time or money so here's a dumb idea: sell the Rohloff, use the $$ to get a EP8 or EP801 drive unit which I think are smaller and lighter than the e8000 but still use the same bolt pattern and support Di2?? Knowing Shimano and Di2 there's some dumb compatibility issue between their own products that makes this a non starter.

 

[speedub.nate]

...get a EP8 or EP801 drive unit which I think are smaller and lighter than the e8000 but still use the same bolt pattern and support Di2?? Knowing Shimano and Di2 there's some dumb compatibility issue between their own products that makes this a non starter.

You don't say?!?

I just so happen to have access to an EP8 on a Yuba Mondo frame, which is the winter cargo project I'm formulating.

Since that cargo bike would get the Rohloff that's currently on my Xtracycle, I'm not in dire need of gobs and gobs of torque. Sure, nice, but I'd bet the E8000 (70 NM torque) + Speedhub on the cargo bike should be sufficient, and the Felt with an EP8 (85 NM) would be a rocket on the local hills.

I'd want to do a 28 mph conversion on whichever motor the Felt ends up with. They're both 20 mph units.

Hmmm... wow, I don't know if Di2 Alfine shifting is worth all that. Gotta think on it!

Thanks again @BlackHand!

 

[stompandgo]

It's not my time or money so here's a dumb idea: sell the Rohloff, use the $$ to get a EP8 or EP801 drive unit which I think are smaller and lighter than the e8000 but still use the same bolt pattern and support Di2?? Knowing Shimano and Di2 there's some dumb compatibility issue between their own products that makes this a non starter.

Great idea.

 

[speedub.nate]

OK thanks again @BlackHand you sent me down "the path" (you know which one) and here's what I came up with:

EP801 uses Shimano's 2nd gen battery tech so would be incompatible with the Felt battery. The Yuba Mondo frame I have access to is a EP-800-CRG (cargo version) using the 1st gen battery.

That got me thinking... after poking around some I found and ordered a new EP800 (1st gen battery compatible) on AliExpress for relatively cheap, and I'll be able to sell the "as new" existing E8000 on eBay and more or less cover my costs, hopefully making it a 1-for-1 swap.

I'll install the 8-speed Alfine with Di2 shifting and will leave the Speedhub on the old mountain bike and sell it off.

 

[BlackHand]

Sounds good, let us know how it turns out!

 

[speedub.nate]

You got it, fingers crossed.

BTW just putting it out there...

I wrote my last few posts thinking of Di2 shifting + Alfine as sort of a high tech "cool to have" feature but not really a necessity, that this is all sort of just a silly and unnecessary pursuit for me.

However I've been riding with a couple of people on a Bosch bike with manually shifted Nexus Inter-5e hub, the newer version that's been beefed up specifically for ebikes.

They make a gawd-awful Chunk! when they're shifted. Sounds like they're breaking something. So I took a turn on one, and I found that the Chunk! is just because they're shifting under load. When I backed off, they were pretty quiet. Being a long-time Speedhub rider, I think I must just naturally back off my pedaling a little bit before changing gears.

But it got me thinking that pushbutton Di2 shifting an 8-speed Alfine ought to be communicating through the drive unit to dial back off the motor torque for an instant to facilitate the shift. And that, in turn, ought to reduce a lot of the wear and tear on the hub, even by a rider who's a little bit easier on the equipment. So maybe this isn't so silly after all. (But still unnecessary!)

 

[Gionnirocket]

If it makes you happy and it keeps you out_à trouble...
It is very NECESSARY!!!

 

[stompandgo]

There is nothing silly about Di2 on e-bikes. I like your plan.

 

[speedub.nate]

Quick update:

Motor arrived from China cocooned in bubble wrap and stryfoam, part number is correct (EP800), looks new with assembly grease on the spindle, plugs in ports, includes accessory screws and spider lockring, but no cover. I was thinking I would re-use the cover from the E8000, but only now as I'm typing this I'm suddenly suspecting the old one won't fit. Shoot, that's going to be another $25 or $50 if I need one or both.

I expected this but confirmed that my SD50 plugs are incompatible with the EP800's SD300 "mini" plugs. I assumed I could readily order adapters, and yeah that's kind of true, but they're female-female in-line plugs, so I just spent $130 for (2) EW-AD305 adapters, (2) EW-SD300 cables (200mm), and an EW-SS300 wheel speed sensor (only because ordering a whole new speed sensor with the right plug was cheaper than the adapter + cable. It's kind of insane that Shimano doesn't just make a short pigtail with an SD300 Male on one end and an SD50 female on the other.

At least the battery port on the EP800 motor looks compatible with the E8000.

I can't connect e-Tube to the new motor until the cables & adapters arrive, so now I wait.

 

[speedub.nate]

Another stupid update:

I did indeed need the new motor cover. Thankfully only $17 and shipped with the adapters I mentioned in the previous post.

I got everything plugged in and great, the SD50 to SD300 adapters do what they're supposed to. So far, so good.

And success! The EP8 recognizes the Di2 shifter motor on the Nexus hub according to eTube software.

Tonight I was removing the spider from the old e8000 motor so I could unbolt the motor from the bike frame, one thing leads to another, and I figure out oops! the e8000 crank arms won't be compatible with the EP8. So there's another $60 expense for ep8 compatible FC-EM600 crank arms. Gah.

I'm also not sure the spider is going to be compatible. I think it may fit – I'll figure it out next time I have a chance to work on it – but there's a district chance the chainline will be off since the Felt was built for a 9-speed drivetrain, and not the 48mm chainline of the Alfine hub.

I'll finish the build before rushing into that final adjustment.

 

[stompandgo]

It's kind of insane that Shimano doesn't just make a short pigtail with an SD300 Male on one end and an SD50 female on the other.

Don't get me started with Shimano. Obsolescence is part of their genetics.

 

[speedub.nate]

Oh yeah, Shimano and I have a long history going back to the original Hollowtech cranks using different spindle lengths for the LX and XT crank arms, and all the chain width Tomfoolery when 9 speed was first hitting the MTB scene.

I should have expected this!

 

[stompandgo]

Live and learn. They are still my favorite manufacturer, by far.

 

[speedub.nate]

Live and learn. They are still my favorite manufacturer, by far.

Same.

For example, I contacted Bosch about adding electronic shifting to my wife's Bianchi. Their reply: can't help you, contact Bianchi. Bianchi's reply: can't help you, contact your bike shop.

At least with Shimano, they'll talk to me, and they offer the necessary guidance, tools, and support.

 

[stompandgo]

They have two different outlooks on who their customer is. End users that buy from both companies need to understand this.

Bosch does not consider the end user as their customer. They view their product line as a system, not components. Their customer is who buys their products, the bike manufacturers and bike retailers. They hold a pretty hard line with this. They will talk to end users, but since the implementation of most of their products is performed by the manufacturers in tight coordination with Bosch, they will point you there. Bosch does not sell DTC. They support the manufacturers and retailers through a formal, managed process.

Shimano sees themselves as a manufacturer of components, not systems. Components are grouped into quality levels that can, for the most part, be easily mixed and matched. That is something that a bike manufacturer generally does not do, but bike retailers that upgrade and service customer bikes, and also end users, do it all the time, i.e. mix Ultegra with Dura-Ace. Shimano will basically support anyone that touches their products, even though they do not sell DTC (EDIT: I was mistaken, Shimano does sell DTC). They also design and sell components that enable mixing and matching between their own products and other competitor products.