Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
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- Europe
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- Mazovia, PL
Because Yamaha does not make a lightweight e-bike motor?
Road-e for 2024?
- Thread starter wrshultz
- Start date
That’s the point. Are they totally locked in to only using Yamaha or could they seek a lightweight motor partner - like the other big boys Cannondale Spesh & Trek etc to compete with them. Again it could be timing for both Giant & Yamaha- maybe better to hold off on new R&D until this industry crises resolves. Or, they just don’t care!
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Their PW-XM motor is listed as 5.75lb, which is about 1.45lb heavier than the SL motors (4.3lb) Brose makes for Specialized, or 0.65lb more than the M800 Bafang (5.1) that powers some light road bikes. Its theoretically possible to make a pretty light bike with that motor if you work on keeping the battery weight down. But yeah, thats a full power motor. Yamaha so far hasn't tried to jump into the lightweight low power market.
I'm personally hoping for a continuation of the old Revolt/Toughroad model, with a full power motor. I'd like to see some higher spec models with carbon frames and larger batteries. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with, but decent change I'll be dissapointed even if the mainstream road-ebike market isn't.
I'm personally hoping for a continuation of the old Revolt/Toughroad model, with a full power motor. I'd like to see some higher spec models with carbon frames and larger batteries. Looking forward to seeing what they come up with, but decent change I'll be dissapointed even if the mainstream road-ebike market isn't.
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
I noticed that Cannondale is putting the new Bosch XS motor in their revised Synapse Neo.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
The issue for Giant is the only world market where road e-bikes make sense is the United States. Roadies in Europe ask: 'Why should I carry a burden of the motor and the battery to be only assisted to 25 km/h?' I find no answer to that. Europe is the principal market for Giant...
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Probably some truth there, but the US is still a huge market and it sure seems like Specialized and Trek sell plenty of road-ebikes all around the world, even in places where assist speeds are absurdly low.
In both road bikes and e-road bikes there is some blurring happening between road and gravel these days. Endurance or All Road bikes with longer and more relaxed geo for greater distances in comfort plus greater tyre clearance that can be used on both roads and mild gravel are very popular. Looks like brands are capitalising by doing e gravel or e all road depending on tyres and components so the bike is a jack of all trades, one bike to do it all. In Europe we don't have the hundreds of desert or forest gravel/dirt roads. Most riding dips in and out of road & gravel so one bike to do it all makes sense.
The other thing I notice is that for a lot of roadies the 15.5mph cut off isn't a big deal, if the bike is light enough to be enjoyable to ride unassisted they can power along at 18-20 mph on the flats with no assistance, saving assistance for hills. I watch one rider on you tube who rides like this on his Creo and saves Turbo for near the end of his rides, he frequently uses this as a kind of informal catch phrase like 'heading for home now so I can hit turbo'. Hills on the way out on his loops in Eco, hills nearing home, in Turbo. Nothing needed on the flats. He did a 100 miler on a singe battery once and I actually messaged him about it and he said his average speed was 18mph so though he stayed in eco, the battery only got used once he dipped below 15mph making it very economical. As my average speed on the Vado SL is 9mph, I was impressed!
European companies like Orbea, BH, Ribble, Boardman all have SL e road bikes plus gravel and/or all road versions so there must be a market for them.
Gravel itself seems now to be split into road-like fast gravel and rowdy MTB-Like rough gravel with very different geo. And with some brands having 2 different models to cater for both these 'sub divisions'.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
All they use hub-drive motors, and please do not tell me Mahle X system is any reliable
Giant would not go that way.
That’s not the point though is it? And hub motors for fit road cyclists are fine because they are lightweight so the bike feels responsive and the riders don’t need much assistance. Plus many, many, brands use Mahle X. Must be doing something right. Mahle are a reliable firm, just ask Specialized.All they use hub-drive motors, and please do not tell me Mahle X system is any reliable
Giant would not go that way.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Haven't you noticed only the SL motor is made by Mahle (and Specialized has the exclusive rights to the motor) but all the SL infrastructure is Specialized?
Mahle X electronics is unreliable. Read these Fora more carefully...
A little reading for you
More and more ebike manufacturers go Fazua or TQ.
Mahle X electronics is unreliable. Read these Fora more carefully...
A little reading for you
More and more ebike manufacturers go Fazua or TQ.
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ALL ebike motors fail. Specialized are no exception. But Spesh are prompt with warranty claims and repairs. Whereas there seems to be a lot of hassle with the brands that use Mahle. Particularly in North America. Hard to tell why, as in is this mahle’s fault or the brand or both? Where does the buck stop? My own shop where I bought my Vado SL said at least half the emtbs they sell need new motors under warranty and they sell loads of Spesh Trek etc. And this is backed up by the companies who repair motors. The wet climate in U.K. is really bad for mid drives as the motor seals are often not great so water damage is terrible. That’s what knocked out my SL motor - twice.
And yes brands are moving to TQ and Fazua (who you once said were equally unreliable) because they are newer systems and are mid drives. Most popular & well reviewed new lightweight motor right now seems to be the Bosch SX.
Also you mostly hear from people with motor problems on here, if the bike is fine people are out riding! I follow a YouTuber who has an Orbea gain and has never had a motor issue.
None of this has anything to do with Giant btw.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Specialized has had a lot of problems with the SL motors too. I have a friend with an early Levo SL and I think hes on his 4th motor. Honestly, all the lightweight low-power systems seem to have lower reliability than the larger full power systems. Which makes perfect sense, because they will be run at a higher duty cycle for more of their life, and its also always been the case in cycling that weight weenie stuff just isn't as reliable.
Gravel is unfortunately going down the same path as road. Namely, that its becoming a popular/prestigious racing discipline so manufacturers are making bikes suited for racing and selling those bikes to the general public because a lot of them want the same bikes that racers run. The problem is that race bike geometry sucks for general riding. Professional racers don't care about comfort and have insane bike handling skills. So if a geometry change makes a bike less comfortable and more twitchy and difficult to handle in rough terrain but also 0.05% faster, well, they are doing that. Which is why you see all these "gravel" bikes that are basically road bikes with room for 35mm tires. Great if you're a protour rider doing endurance gravel races. Not great for an average rider.
Gravel is unfortunately going down the same path as road. Namely, that its becoming a popular/prestigious racing discipline so manufacturers are making bikes suited for racing and selling those bikes to the general public because a lot of them want the same bikes that racers run. The problem is that race bike geometry sucks for general riding. Professional racers don't care about comfort and have insane bike handling skills. So if a geometry change makes a bike less comfortable and more twitchy and difficult to handle in rough terrain but also 0.05% faster, well, they are doing that. Which is why you see all these "gravel" bikes that are basically road bikes with room for 35mm tires. Great if you're a protour rider doing endurance gravel races. Not great for an average rider.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
Guys, Specialized may have issue with SL motors on e-MTBs just because mountain biking is one massive abuse of the bikes.
Have you ever heard the SL electronics ever failed? I don't think so. But the electronics is the Achilles heel of Mahle X.
Have you ever heard the SL electronics ever failed? I don't think so. But the electronics is the Achilles heel of Mahle X.
Not Creo 2. As I look to the tremendous changes made to that model (compared to Creo 1), now I can say Creo 2 is a genuine gravel e-bike. (Did you overlook the 47 mm tyres with a clearance for 55 mm ones, and many more new features?)
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
I don't know whats failing, but I know hes had his motor replaced several times. To be fair, the shop cheerfully does it every time it dies, and he has other bikes to ride (including a standard Levo) so the downtime doesn't bother him.
Dunno that MTBing is that abusive on the ebike components. Lots of low rpm ratcheting but its not like the ebike parts are like wheels and derailleurs that get smacked into the ground and rocks or the frame/fork/bars that just take a lot of additional forces. Probably get submerged a lot more than on a road/gravel bike? I beat the hell out of my e-mtb but don't really worry about motor. When I'm bombing a rocky chute the motor isn't even doing anything.
In general, I just assume that a motor thats designed to be lightweight and provide a lower assist is going to spend more of its life at a higher percentage of max power and also have had weight cut everywhere possible which means less material margin when something gets stressed beyond its design limit.
I mean, it didn't change that much. 1d slacker head angle, very slightly shorter effective head tube, raised the BB ~5mm. They did lengthen the wheelbase about an inch (probably to help get that tire clearance in back). The Creo 2 is a very good general road/light gravel geometry, Specialized definitely knows their stuff. Its not what I would call progressive gravel (which is geared much more towards off road ability). Its the sort of geometry you want when you're designing a jack of all trades, which is obviously what they were trying to do.
What I'd like is a drop bar e-gravel with geometry like the Kona Ouroboros, YT Szepter, Santa Cruz Stigmata or Salsa Cutthroat. Sub-70d head angle, 74+d seat angle, 1040mm+ wheelbase in the 50-52cm frame size. I'd be shocked to get it out of Giant though. Like Specialized, they want to sell them in large numbers which means a more general purpose geometry.
Does the TCU count as electronics? Had mine replaced twice.
AJ2358
New Member
Deacon Blues
Well-Known Member
I have a 2018 Defy Advance Pro 0 and I've been waiting to see if Giant would offer a light, carbon e-road bike.
At first glance I'm disappointed Giant went with a hub motor instead of a light/small bottom bracket motor like the Bosch XS or ZF.
At first glance I'm disappointed Giant went with a hub motor instead of a light/small bottom bracket motor like the Bosch XS or ZF.
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