Road bike snob looking for advice

[jayboogiezz]

Hello all, thanks for having me. J

I am going to be straight up; I was that guy (being an amateur elite cyclist) who shunned eBike technology and passed judgment faster than Marcel Kittel on a flat 200m. I have seen the light and am looking for an ebike that will allow me to travel to and from work 50mi round trip and avoid taking the coffin on wheels 2-3 days per week. The primary objective for me is to be able to travel farther while using my commute as training. So it appears based on my non-exsistent experience with eBikes that the assist technology is what I need to be focused on most. I am not concerned with high power levels, but having smooth and proportionate application of power based on my output is paramount. I am fortunate enough to be sponsored by a shop that carries Trek and Cannondale, but based on some of the pricing I have seen, it still may be more cost effective for me to go the online route. Maybe in the future I can up my E game and get something nicer, but for my first foray into the dark side I want to keep a few bills in the wallet.
At this point in time, I only have one bike on the list, and that is the Crosscurrent S with a 19.2 AH battery. Are there any others that I should consider? When it comes to price, is there a point of diminishing returns in this market? Based on my searches thus far, it seems like the market is still evolving and technology is advancing rapidly, making it a bit hard for someone like me who likes to know the details of things to not be overwhelmed. I will continue to read reviews and posts in this forum, but for those willing to share some knowledge and time, I would be very grateful. Hope everyone had a great weekend!!!

 

[Ann M.]

Sure did, @jayboogiezz! Welcome to the EBR family. I used to be a road racing snob years ago; now I just enjoy riding fast (with electric help) My custom handbuilt road bike with the super skinny tires gathers dust at home.

Besides the Crosscurrent S you might want to consider a conversion with a mid drive system on one of the bikes you already have. Just a thought.

 

[Dunbar]

I have an original (less powerful) Cross Current and come from a road cycling background. You can definitely get a good workout on the Cross Current S if you turn the assist level down and go slower. On the top two assist levels cruising at 25-30mph it’s going to be harder to get a good workout. The Cross Current S is a lot more customizeable though. You can set the top assist speed in the display settings. So, for example, you could set that for 23mph and still get a good workout. Basically you will be ‘fighting’ against the controller as it starts to pull the power back once you reach the top assisted speed. That is a good thing, it allows you to pedal harder and actually get some good exercise. Whatever bike you decide on, make sure it has a torque sensor. That is going to more closely replicate what it feels like to ride a regular bike. Cadence-only sensing e-bikes are more like electric scooters with the pedals acting as the on/off switch. For <$2k the Cross Current S is pretty hard to beat.

 

[rich c]

Hello all, thanks for having me. J

I am fortunate enough to be sponsored by a shop that carries Trek and Cannondale, but based on some of the pricing I have seen, it still may be more cost effective for me to go the online route. Maybe in the future I can up my E game and get something nicer, but for my first foray into the dark side I want to keep a few bills in the wallet.

I guess you don't care to continue your sponsorship with the local shop either? I can't believe you are even considering buying an on-line bike! When they find out, bet you get the "don't let the door hit you......."

 

[J.R.]

Whatever bike you decide on, make sure it has a torque sensor. That is going to more closely replicate what it feels like to ride a regular bike. Cadence-only sensing e-bikes are more like electric scooters with the pedals acting as the on/off switch. For <$2k the Cross Current S is pretty hard to beat.

@jayboogiezz I second Dunbar's advice, I couldn't have said it any better. Being a hardcore roadie, I don't think think you'd be happy with cadence sensing. The CCS should get the job done. To do 15 to 25 mph for 50 miles you'll want the biggest battery you can get, 600 watt hour or better. If you can charge at work that might open up more options.

Welcome to the dark side. Don't let the authorities (your club) catch you practicing witchcraft, they might burn you at the stake!

 

[jayboogiezz]

@rich c I support, advertise and am an all around ambassador for my bike shop. Trust me, I spend more money there than I would like to admit. Why not spend more you ask, everything has a limit. I get your point and I would love to get on a Trek Super Commuter which goes for 3500 MSRP or a Cannondale, but at some point I do have to take my own personal finances into account. Even with a gracious discount from the shop, these bikes that many of you own are stil able to contend in price point and technolodgy. I do have to admit, non of these bikes are even remotely nice to look at compared to the big boys, but I am for form over function anyway. Purchasing an ebike from them is not out the question. I just have not arrived at a point where I can feel confident I am making the best purchase with my money. I appreciate your comment, because supporting your local bike shop and local economy should not be taken lightly.

 

[jayboogiezz]

@jayboogiezz I second Dunbar's advice, I couldn't have said it any better. Being a hardcore roadie, I don't think think you'd be happy with cadence sensing. The CCS should get the job done. To do 15 to 25 mph for 50 miles you'll want the biggest battery you can get, 600 watt hour or better. If you can charge at work that might open up more options.

Welcome to the dark side. Don't let the authorities (your club) catch you practicing witchcraft, they might burn you at the stake!

Thanks @Dunbar and @J.R. for the suggestions. Makes me feel better that I was headed in the right direction and that you guys come from the same background. Do you guys run clipless pedals? Am I going to fall victim to the mod bug with these bikes too? I already have to much of that going on in my life, but cant help myself. I have already started to contemplate the possibilities of going tubless as my ride would include a lot of wide shoulder riding alongside a parkway and the thought of changing a tube on a 50lb bike could seem like a pain on a cold dark morning commute. Anyways cant say how much I appreciate you guys feedback.

 

[Reid]

Am I going to fall victim to the mod bug with these bikes too?

It's all good as it comes out of the box! However, exampling my own follies:

• four-piston front brake,
• 10S drivetrain (no more chain drops),
• (Link Removed - No Longer Exists),
• lights, camera, action, Alright Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up

youtube search car wipes bike

Welcome to the forum!

 

[jayboogiezz]

It's all good as it comes out of the box! However, exampling my own follies:

• four-piston front brake,
• 10S drivetrain,
• Suntour NCX suspension post,
• lights, camera, action, Alright Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up

youtube search car wipes bike

Welcome to the forum!

It is funny that you say this, as I become more seasoned and mature like fine wine or cheese I am starting to lose my nerve with battling traffic. I kid you not, half of my sprint training in the past has been chasing entitled northern Virginia traffic to politely engage in cycling and vehicle law and etiquette after getting coal rolled, verbally assaulted or having stuff thrown at me during a drive-by. I now have a Cycliq Fly tail light and am even considering getting a helmet mirror. With two kids my perspective has changed a lot and now my priorities are getting home safe and having better time management. That is why most of my training in winter and spring is on an indoor smart trainer. I have so many lights, but feel none of them do a good job of providing perpendicular/side visibility and am considering getting a Niteflux Red Zone in hopes it will help with the notorious cycling right hook. I will take a look at that seatpost looks promising, if you have not hear of it check out the redshift shocktop suspension stem.

 

[Dunbar]

Thanks @Dunbar and @J.R.Do you guys run clipless pedals? Am I going to fall victim to the mod bug with these bikes too?

I don’t run clipless on my Cross Current although there’s nothing special about an e-bike that would prevent you from using them. Other than stuff like tires, bags and lights there isn’t much to upgrade on the bike once you have it. I would recommend getting at least the 19.2Ah battery (the bigger batteries really transform the utility of e-bikes IMO.) I did upgrade my Cross Current to 10sp Deore XT but I installed it myself so it only cost me about $125 once I ebayed the removed parts. I also highly recommend some kind of suspension seat post. I use the Body Float / Kinect but there are cheaper options out there. As far as tires, I run Schwalbe Marathon Almotions (28x2.0) but if I were commuting tubeless could make sense if I was getting frequent punctures. Changing a rear flat tire out in the wild on a hub motor e-bike is a pretty major PITA. Thankfully it has never happened to me in roughly 8k e-bike miles (knock on wood.) I should also add that it’s very hard to do interval training on an e-bike but it’s very easy to do zone 1 & 2 training on them.

 

[JRA]

The most important aspect to me as a a long time cyclist is to replicate my relationship to the bikes drivetrain as much as possible under e assist. To me this precludes any type of PAS because at the higher cadence I use on the road and wanting to vary it some without gaining or losing speed necessarily is not possible with even the most sensitive Torque Assist System. You apply more pressure and you go faster and vice versa unless you are constantly adjusting the ratio via a controller of course. The whole "magic legs" thing is lost on me I guess and I like to feel the road via the drivetrain in other words which also transfers well when I ride an analog bike again. It is important to have the gearing necessary to be able to pedal effectively at your projected average speed and more for dh thrills too if possible.

In order to make this happen I use a front hub motor with a throttle and Cycle Analyst III that I can set so that when I reach my desired speed I can let go of the throttle and pedal away in whatever gear/cadence I desire and the assist function fluctuates accordingly but not my speed. I also use the regen function generously as it helps to get the slowing down thing going and most times is all I need. Doesn't add much to the charge but sure saves on brake pads.

My mileage with a 52v/10.5ah/25A controller varies according to all the factors mentioned but as a general rule of thumb I find that my average speed and wh/mi are usually pretty much the same in varied terrain/speeds due to stops starts etc.. Although it is easier to average in the low 20's at a lower wh/mi rate than above that speed due to as mentioned factors above. While my current battery has never made 50 miles it has done 45 and my plan for my next battery is to go up another 1/3 in Ah so that I can do 50 easily.

Where I live I would wager that over 95% of the road/commuter biking communities use a drop bar bike of some sort. I have also found that a drop bar bike works well with assist although it is not as popular as those that use riser bars, big saddles and suspension bits in the e market place. I get plenty of comfort from using 40c tires on >i25 rims set up tubeless at 35psi btw. This also allows me to do gravé as well and even mild trail riding. Just now there are some drop bar models becoming available but are unfortunately not going to work for me as they are mainly EU spec PAS mid drives.

As you say the market is evolving rapidly and that is due to the advancements in technology, but to me the most significant advancement that applies to me is the battery chemistry itself and luckily there is a lot of effort being made towards that end. As the battery is arguably the most expensive and important element of an e bike I have chosen to stay with an open source modular system that is unencumbered by proprietary components so that as new developments happen I can easily adopt them.

In conclusion what works for me on the road is less than popular here as most will say that front hub motors and throttles won't work and that you need PAS and a mid drive. So to that end that is how my mtb is setup and that is another story.

 

[Dunbar]

In order to make this happen I use a front hub motor with a throttle and Cycle Analyst III that I can set so that when I reach my desired speed I can let go of the throttle and pedal away in whatever gear/cadence I desire and the assist function fluctuates accordingly but not my speed.

On the Cross Current S you can set your desired cruising speed on the display via the max pedal assist speed if one of the pre-set assist levels doesn’t work for you. As you approach that speed the controller starts to pull power back. You start to fight against the controller until you reach the equilibrium point (based on how hard you want to work). Cadence would be a function of what gear your select (the controller doesn’t care how fast/slow you pedal.) The throttle method isn’t popular because it requires constant fiddling and can lead to hand fatigue. In comparison, the torque sensing bikes allow you to focus on riding the bike and let the controller handle the management of motor power.

 

[JRA]

Dunbar, I have a torque assist mid drive mtb and am well acquainted with how it works and in fact I prefer it for the lower cadence(s) I use while on my mtb.

You are in error though that using a throttle as I have described requires constant fiddling and hand fatigue as you probably have never used a system like the one I use which requires very little interaction with the throttle once underway and certainly no hand fatigue. Think of it more as a cruise control system if you will.

 

[Nova Haibike]

The most important aspect to me as a a long time cyclist is to replicate my relationship to the bikes drivetrain as much as possible under e assist. To me this precludes any type of PAS because at the higher cadence I use on the road and wanting to vary it some without gaining or losing speed necessarily is not possible with even the most sensitive Torque Assist System. You apply more pressure and you go faster and vice versa unless you are constantly adjusting the ratio via a controller of course. The whole "magic legs" thing is lost on me I guess and I like to feel the road via the drivetrain in other words which also transfers well when I ride an analog bike again. It is important to have the gearing necessary to be able to pedal effectively at your projected average speed and more for dh thrills too if possible.

For the short time I have had it, I'm loving the Yamaha mid-drive. Mine is set up with double chainrings, with the gearing closer replicating what a traditional road bike has. So when not using the drive...or using it with little assistance...it rides like a normal bike, save for the snappiness being gone due to the overall weight of the bike. I often outrun the system (the lower cadence PW) on the flats. While it would be nice to feel boost above 20mph, it is definitely natural to spin above the motor's assistance because it is not helping you at all...it's a regular bike at that point.

 

[Dunbar]

You are in error though that using a throttle as I have described requires constant fiddling and hand fatigue as you probably have never used a system like the one I use which requires very little interaction with the throttle once underway and certainly no hand fatigue. Think of it more as a cruise control system if you will.

It would require constant fiddling in the urban setting that I ride in. I have heard several people complain that twist throttles cause hand fatigue with extended use. Many mid-drive units start to cut power at higher pedal cadence. This isn’t the case with hub motor bikes. I can spin as fast as I want (and I tended to spin 80-95rpm on my road bikes so I’m no masher.)

 

[JRA]

A 45lb bike is going to ride differently than a 20lb bike so any bike with an e assist system is not going to ever ride like a regular bike unless on flat ground with no headwind perhaps. I am glad you are liking your bike though.

The reason why I personally ride a e assist road bike is to go faster than I can on a conventional bike which replaces my need for a motorcycle and gets me my pedaling ya ya's at the same time. Whenever I see a post where someone says they are a roadie I feel it necessary to let them know that their pure pedaling experience may not be replaceable with an e assist system. Many cyclists spend years perfecting their interaction with their drive trains and the odd feeling of PAS may or may not be of importance to them. The option I use is as close as possible to conventional drive train feel and that is why it works, for me.

 

[JRA]

It would require constant fiddling in the urban setting that I ride in. I have heard several people complain that twist throttles cause hand fatigue with extended use. Many mid-drive units start to cut power at higher pedal cadence. This isn’t the case with hub motor bikes. I can spin as fast as I want (and I tended to spin 80-95rpm on my road bikes so I’m no masher.)

I ride in a city a lot. I use a thumb throttle that falls naturally to my hand. I also use a hub motor bike. Glad you have found what works for you.

 

[Dunbar]

I ride in a city a lot. I use a thumb throttle that falls naturally to my hand. I also use a hub motor bike. Glad you have found what works for you.

Fair enough, I personally like the torque sensor approach around town. I can focus on riding the bike and let the controller determine how much power to send to the motor.

 

[jayboogiezz]

More thanks all! @JRA I may end up at the same conclusion as you, wish I could try all of these methods prior to a purchase. But, that may not be possible as I would rather get on something before the spring is here. That will obviously lower the possibility of getting it "right" for myself the first time. Non proprietary, and future proofing is a smart way to go about it. I will look into Cycle Analyst and front hubs to see if that is a method that will work best for my goals. I think another issue for me is that all of my bikes that can clear more than a 28c are Thru Axle. So would require swapping out forks which is not a huge deal (would increase startup cost) or buying a dedicated bike anyway.
Cant recall if it is against forum rules to share product links, but if so JRA can you please message me your front hub info. Wahoo Taco Tuesday!!!

 

[JRA]

My V2 bike has a hub motor that is thru axle compatible and developed by Grin @ ebikes.ca so no fork swapping necessary. Although I haven't gotten a fork yet to take advantage of this feature the integral torque arm of the AnyAxle motor works really well and there has been no movement in the dropouts at all which can happen without a proper torque arm system. The thru axle feature pretty much negates that happening however.

It really depends on how much you want to be involved in the spec of your bike. There are plenty of off the shelf models out that will service the needs of most but as always in the bike world if you want custom, custom it is. Doesn't have to be any more expensive and is a great way to learn about the actual nuts and volts of e bike systems.

Here is a pic of my V2 bike.

Schlumpf High Speed drive provides a 150" plus gear thru an Alfine Di2 11spd IGH, you spend a good amount of time in the higher ratios so it is important to have them aboard. It is not that important to me to have an integrated and stealthy looking bike obviously because I don't really care if someone notices I'm riding an e bike.