Possible downside to speed pedelec / class 3 / 28 MPH ?

[elyhim]

If you don't see speed pedelecs being restricted to road use only (no greenway, no bike lane) you are not paying attention. This year many manufactures have come out with versions of the commuters in Class I versions. I believe this is the direction the laws are going to go particularly if Europe is a model.

 

[DanRichman]

There's another drawback to Class 3 pedelecs -- not technical but legal.

In Washington State, Class 3 pedelecs are subject to severe limitations. (1) They are banned from mixed-use trails, meaning bike paths where people are walking (except where local laws allow them). (2) They cannot be ridden on sidewalks unless there is no safe alternative. And (3) they are banned from trails that are (a) designated as being for non-motorized vehicles only and (b) have a natural surface, with no added surfacing materials.

To view an accurate summary of the law, see https://www.cascade.org/EFAQ. To view the entire law, see SB 6434 (https://electricbikereview.com/foru...wnside-to-speed-pedelec-class-3-28-mph.22624/), esp. Sec. 5, para. 8.

To me, for reasons that should be obvious, these restrictions are nonsensical. And they are unlikely to enforced. Nonetheless, they *are* the law. These restrictions do not apply to Class 1 and Class 2 ebikes.

I was not told of these restrictions before I bought my Class 3 pedelec. If I had been, I might have reconsidered.

Check your state's laws!

 

[Ken M]

Would love for one of the regulation writers to explain how they plan to enforce this. It's like saying if you own a fast sports car you can't drive it thru a neighborhood. Why doesn't common sense even enter into the regulation of ebikes? For example enforcing speed limits on the shared paths, sidewalks, etc. just like we have posted and enforced speed limits on different streets. Bike riders understand the risk of injury when they ride faster, so they will almost always ride at a speed safe for the conditions they are faced with (slower when they are on a sidewalk with pedestrians and faster when they are on a road shared with cars).

Let me set the PRIORITY for all those people out there that think we need to regulate ebikes like this for safety. That's a pile of you know what. I can ride my road bike at 35mph for some distance and achieve much faster speeds downhill and yet I always feel responsible for riding a safe speed for the path/road/sidewalk I'm riding on. If there is a sidewalk speed limit for bikes I pay attention to ride at a safe speed.

The PRIORITY this country should recognize is that we need more people using mass transportation or human scale transportation like eBikes. The current regulations without a doubt are hindering the appeal of eBikes for commuting. If I have a 20 mile commute to work and have to ride a Class 1 or 2 ebike because there are some stretches where a faster ebike would be illegal,then I may not have the time to spend an hour or more riding at speeds less than 20mph just to make the legislators, DMV clerks and Insurance sales reps feel like they have a good chance of making pension money from controlling fast ebikes. Why can't I have a faster ebike and just ride slower where there are speed restrictions. DDDDAAAA....common sense!!!

I can assure everyone the assist limits are not about safety (we have sports cars that can go faster than 250mph that can ride safely with other cars at 55mph). It's about CONTROL and MONEY. Oil and gas certainly doesn't want to see ebikes become viable transportation for a huge % of the population. They stand to loose $billions in revenue. DMV and Insurance companies .... that SAME. Here's the proof:

If the max speed an ebike can achieve can’t be argued as the basis for the assist limit, what is it’s basis?

This is the obvious question given that ebike speed is not truly limited by the assist speed. I have a class 1 ebike that the assist stops at 20mph and yet I'll ride downhills at 35mph. Which based on the regulations should not be legal on the Class 2 ebike.

By the way, I have tried to get lawyers that claim to be experts on these laws to document formal positions on this subject. NONE of them will because they are waiting for the litigation cycle to get in high gear - they'll form their opinion based on which side pays them more. If there are any lawyers that read this, I would love to hear them tell me I'll wrong and DOCUMENT a formal position of if the current laws are enforceable and have any tangible legal standing.

 

[CodyDog]

OK, so the elderly, people with health issues, parents with kids in child seats, maybe people hauling a trailer full of groceries -- should stay off bikes?

I'll just stop there.

I agree with Bruce’s reply. I would venture to say that the larger part of the existing market in the U.S. is not concerned with getting the higher speeds out of their bike.

 

[Ken M]

I agree with Bruce’s reply. I would venture to say that the larger part of the existing market in the U.S. is not concerned with getting the higher speeds out of their bike.

So help me understand how that relates to restricting the assist speed of an eBike. Are you saying the elderly or a parent with a child seat are not capable of regulating their riding speed? Maybe the person hauling groceries may not need a higher speed but maybe they would need a bit more power (i.e. higher than the 750W limit - a nonsensical regulation as any motor can be rated at 750W) to get up a few hills without huge amounts of effort and very low gears / speed.

As I tried to point out, it seems everyone equates the assist speed as the maximum speed the bike can achieve but that is simply not the case. I understand that there are a lot of people that may never ride a bike faster than 20 mph. I get that, but does the entire industry have to be controlled per what the slowest riders do or that non-regular bike riders feel is the appropriate assist speed of an ebike?

I ride 13 miles each way to work most days. About 50% of the distance I'm sharing the road with cars and the rest of the time I'm on a designated bike lane or the side walk. Why is is ILLEGAL for me to have a bike that can assist to say 35mph when I'm riding on the street with cars where a bit more speed actually makes me safer? When I'm on the sidewalk or a restricted speed bike lane, I could just put the bike in a lower assist setting that is restricted to the Class 1 speed of 20mph.

I think there are a whole lot of people voicing opinions on ebike assist speed limits that never even commute on a bike. That's like someone that has never piloted a plane telling a pilot what a safe flying speed is (oh but we have a lot of bike experts that haven't ridden since they were 10 I'm sure). If you spend an hour or more a day on a bike, I think you quickly learn that riding at 35mph is not some huge safety risk when you use your common sense and have a high quality bike or recumbent (for those that lack common sense, I'm all for just requiring them to walk as they probably should be driving a car either).

 

[CodyDog]

So help me understand how that relates to restricting the assist speed of an eBike. Are you saying the elderly or a parent with a child seat are not capable of regulating their riding speed? Maybe the person hauling groceries may not need a higher speed but maybe they would need a bit more power (i.e. higher than the 750W limit - a nonsensical regulation as any motor can be rated at 750W) to get up a few hills without huge amounts of effort and very low gears / speed.

As I tried to point out, it seems everyone equates the assist speed as the maximum speed the bike can achieve but that is simply not the case. I understand that there are a lot of people that may never ride a bike faster than 20 mph. I get that, but does the entire industry have to be controlled per what the slowest riders do or that non-regular bike riders feel is the appropriate assist speed of an ebike?

I ride 13 miles each way to work most days. About 50% of the distance I'm sharing the road with cars and the rest of the time I'm on a designated bike lane or the side walk. Why is is ILLEGAL for me to have a bike that can assist to say 35mph when I'm riding on the street with cars where a bit more speed actually makes me safer? When I'm on the sidewalk or a restricted speed bike lane, I could just put the bike in a lower assist setting that is restricted to the Class 1 speed of 20mph.

I think there are a whole lot of people voicing opinions on ebike assist speed limits that never even commute on a bike. That's like someone that has never piloted a plane telling a pilot what a safe flying speed is (oh but we have a lot of bike experts that haven't ridden since they were 10 I'm sure). If you spend an hour or more a day on a bike, I think you quickly learn that riding at 35mph is not some huge safety risk when you use your common sense and have a high quality bike or recumbent (for those that lack common sense, I'm all for just requiring them to walk as they probably should be driving a car either).

Ken M said:
I have a saying ... "if you don't want to ride faster than 20mph....walk."

I'm saying that your saying is a bit questionable for a forum which includes a great deal of riders that prefer to not exceed 20 mph for what ever reason. An old saying...."know who your audience is" LOL

I'm in your camp on your general message or my interpretation of it. I'm not in favor of some of the regulations on ebikes. I prefer a class three and also I am in favor of being a responsible rider. My wife has a class three and I programed my Rover to 24 mph (throttle and assist). I think irresponsibility can and does occur with traditional bikes as well as ebikes.

Also, I agree with you on the "assist" issue.

Unfortunately a lot of individuals that create regulations for many things do not understand what they are doing. We can agree or disagree on stuff like this but unfortunately we really do not have the power to change the Class I, Class 2 and Class 3 ratings (bummer).

 

[DDBB]

Actually, there IS a speed limit for all aircraft below 10,000' which is 250 kts... This helps to keep the Lear 60 or CitationX from running over (or into) uncle Buck who's out for a sunday cruise in his piper cub.

 

[Ken M]

I think there would be more consensus on the assist limits of 20/28mph if there was any legit data justifying these limits. The mere fact that many riders hit speeds upwards of 40mph or more going down hill on traditional road bikes (no ebikes) speaks loudly that the assist limits are not going to establish any control of the top speeds bikers ride at.

I'm a "reasonable" rider because I'm 57 years old and I don't want to wreck and have a serious injury and I still ride at a top speed of 30-40mph when I'm going downhill on my ebike even though the assist cuts off at 20mph. So what increased danger is there in allowing the assist to go higher than 20/28mph such that I could average a higher speed for my 13 miles commute each way? No one is going to ride at high speeds on a sidewalk thru pedestrians and if they do they should get a wreckless riding ticket.

You are wrong that we don't have the power to change the regulations. If enough people speak out and don't abide by the regulations (as what happened with the 55mph speed limit on highways and interstates (90%+ of drivers were violating that law on a daily basis so it had zero credible legal standing other than some crotchety old law makers not wanting to change it). It's clear that a number of ebike manufacturers like Juiced Cycles are going to continue to sell faster than Class 3 ebikes and just say it's up to the rider to ride them "legally" just like it's the responsibility of a sports car owner to drive it "legally." How do you enforce an assist limit when the rider can just switch back to "legal mode" if they are pulled over for going over 20mph on an ebike. It will be impossible to determine if it was the rider proving the power to go faster then 20mph or the drive system - they enforcement is impossible (or at least would require very specialize equipment to assess how the speed was achieved).

Laws have to make sense or they eventually fail. Look at what is happening to smoking pot across the country. It's a weed that does far less damage than alcohol so only people that incapable of change are still against legalization (note: I don't personally do any drugs whatsoever as I think they are for stupid people but I don't want a law telling them they can't smoke pot). My guess is those are the same people that are supporting the ebike class system.

 

[Over50]

I have a saying ... "if you don't want to ride faster than 20mph....walk."...

A pretty extreme point of view. As I've documented here a number of times I commute about 36 miles round trip on my class 1 bikes and my class 3. I've made that commute on my class 1 Tern Vektron, Tern GSD and my Haibike. Total commute time on the Haibike vs my class 3 R&M is probably around 10 minutes longer. Add another 5-10 minutes for the Terns (not as much torque, 20 inch wheels...). I can still easily and reasonably commute 36 miles on the class 1 bikes but I sure can't walk 36 miles to work.

Commuting on the class 1s has a bit of a drawback for the few open stretches I have where I can't exceed around 21 mph. But most of my commute is start/stop so the impact to the overall commute is negligible. And the Haibike adds the torque advantage combined with excellent range due to keeping my speeds lower (I've posted here about attaining 50-60 miles with room to spare on the 500WH battery). And, I don't mind adding 10 to 15 minutes to my commute to ride my class 1s now and and then. Riding the class 1s to work is still fun and definitely beats driving - and since I consider my commutes as part of my exercise regimen then 10-15 minutes extra really means nothing to me. I'd rather spend the time on the bike then go to a gym. I often work harder on the class 1 bikes - particularly on the Terns so there is the calorie/exercise advantage.

 

[ebikemom]

Everybody is different. Some folks like high speed on well-maintained roads. Some like high speeds on any kind of terrain--after all, there are folks who do downhill mountain biking! Look at skiiers--there are beautifully skilled skiiers who ski slowly and gracefully--they CAN ski fast, they CAN do bumps, but they like slower speeds.

As for e-cyclists, we have different physical capabilities, different sensory strengths and challenges, different needs, different levels of risk tolerance ....

So, great to have the variety of ebikes. My ebike assist and throttle top out at 24.9mph, from what I can tell. Occasionally I'll notice that on assist I'm going 21 or 22 mph, but quite rarely. I am risk-averse, for sure. If heading to a destination, I like the 15-18 mph range. For recreational riding, I'll put it on PAS 2 and ride in the 12-14 mph range, better to see the flora and fauna, or, if I want a breeze, pedal along in my "destination biking" speed range on "PAS 3". For destination biking, I use higher PAS levels to keep an even speed on hills. For recreational cycling, I tend to keep it on the same PAS. No hurries, no worries!

Happy ebiking!

 

[Alaskan]

I spend most of my riding time trying to push harder and ask for less assistance in pursuit of better watts per mile. I wanted to do a ride that gave wings to the high speed Bosch motor system and Rohloff transmission. For context, the bike and I are around 280 lbs. and I am not much younger than dirt at 67 and I have my health issues

Last week I did a 49 mile ride in 2:36, calm, sunny 65-70 degree conditions. To average almost 19 I clearly spent quite a bit of time above 20. I was aiming for speed with the Bosch HS in sport mode the whole time. The exuberance of the speed motivated me to push myself harder (112 watts) than I normally ride at (95-105 watts). On a paved trail through the woods on a weekday morning, the Rohloff was mostly in 12th or 13th on a largely flat ride (up and down 1,200 feet in 49 miles).

I carried an extra 500w battery in a trunk bag. The first was down to 26% when I swapped it out. At the end of the ride the second battery was at 53%. By my calculation it took 705 watts to cover the 49. Doing that distance mostly in eco mode with some tour for hills, I would average 3 mph less at 15mpg with perhaps 20% less exertion using 80% of one battery, 400 watts. Speed does carry a cost but it sure is fun once in while.

 

[Ken M]

Actually, there IS a speed limit for all aircraft below 10,000' which is 250 kts... This helps to keep the Lear 60 or CitationX from running over (or into) uncle Buck who's out for a sunday cruise in his piper cub.

So there is a speed limit below 10,000 feet but the Lear 60 can still fly much faster at the appropriate altitude.

If you apply your logic to bikes that would equivalent to having different speed limits on certain paths, not limiting the assist speed of the drive system.

For some reason a lot of people are inherently thinking the assist speed is the equivalent of a posted speed limit. I can understand the confusion but not the same thing.

 

[ebikemom]

The more people get experience riding ebikes, the faster the fog will clear. We are all ambassadors for the great bikes we are riding. Let's get more folks onto ebikes!

 

[Riversurf]

One of the problems mid-drives have as commuters is you use the highest gears, you actually decrease the torque available at the rear wheel. This means you are more likely to experience limited power at higher speeds.
Hub drives obviously don't experience this loss in torque because they are powering the wheel directly. The gear you are pedaling makes no difference to the torque available from the motor. (Hugely impacts torque available from the rider).

Can you please elaborate on this? My bike is a commuter type (mid-drive, seven speed sealed hub, 20 mph assist), and on flats with minimal wind I'm often in the highest gear cruising along at 18-20. Are you saying that if I'm maintaining my usual cadence (100ish?) that the battery is draining faster than if I was in a lower gear, or...? Thanks.

 

[Alaskan]

@Chris Hammond @Riversurf I don't think it is valid to make generalizations about mid drives such as the one Chris made here. There are too many variables in configuration, technology employed, etc. Some have torque sensors, some rely on cadence alone. Some motors have higher torque at lower rpms and then ramp dowd. Others hit their peak torque output at higher cadence.

I own and ride Bosch CX and HS mid drives with Nuvinci, Shimano and Rohloff gearing. My bikes are equipped with the Nyon display. So I can monitor torque and most of the parameters here in real time. In my experience, on Bosch bikes, the torque output increases with cadence to about 80 rpms and then is constant until you get to the assist limit. It doesn't matter which gear you are in as far as output is concerned. The gear selected is an accommodation to the grade of the road, which determines max speed available under the circumstances.

My understanding of the key difference between hub drive and mid drive is as follows: As to the torque performance of hub drives, yes the torque is more constant. They apply their torque independently of the cranks and gears. Hub drives thus are great on flat ground but fade quicker climbing hills. Because their energy does not utilize the gear train, a hub motor needs a larger motor with more wattage to provide equivalent hill climbing performance to that of a mid drive.

If I am mistaken, I am certainly eager to learn more.

 

[Over50]

There is a safety downside to riding an e-bike at 28 mph. Motorists entering from side roads where they must yield may mis-judge your speed and pull out in front of you. Many may not be expecting a recreational cyclist to be approaching at 28 mph.

There is another aspect to this that I've experienced several times on residential streets with the latest being this morning. Therefore I decided to post it and thought this was the appropriate thread. And that is motorists passing the cyclist and misjudging the speed required to pass. Early this morning I took my class 3 and headed out to grab some bagels for the house. I'm returning on a residential street with posted speed limit of 25 mph. I'm probably doing 21-22 mph and see a car coming from behind. So instead of moving over and slowing down (1 option) I went up in assist level and took my speed to about 26 mph (and occupied the lane). The driver, despite me riding at or above the posted speed limit, still accelerated to pass. Thus the driver is using the oncoming traffic lane, on a residential street with intersections and now hitting a speed of probably 35 mph. For everyone's safety I had to brake and cede the lane by moving close to the curb. I'm not sure if when the driver made up her mind to pass she realized how fast I was going.

The other related safety issue that most riders on this forum have experienced is the car passing and then making a right-turn in front of the cyclist. Again it is probably a misjudgment of speed more than it is selfishness. This has happened to me multiple times on my commute. Have a car pass me only to force me to brake when it quickly makes a right turn in front of me.

 

[pocomo]

It's fine for an electric bicycle to be able to achieve full road speeds safely, but in that case it should no longer legally be a bicycle and should be regulated with licensing and insurance requirements equivalent to a scooter or small motorcycle. It would be safer for everyone, as travelling 30+ mph in most city bike lanes places you in jeopardy from car doors and jaywalkers. 20 mph seems to me to be the upper limit on what could be considered to be 'pedestrian compatible' in an urban environment. In the countryside that would not apply.

 

[Chris Hammond]

Can you please elaborate on this? My bike is a commuter type (mid-drive, seven speed sealed hub, 20 mph assist), and on flats with minimal wind I'm often in the highest gear cruising along at 18-20. Are you saying that if I'm maintaining my usual cadence (100ish?) that the battery is draining faster than if I was in a lower gear, or...? Thanks.

No that is not my point. This is not about pedal cadence. (There are reports from mid-drive owners about efficiency improvements based on cadence however.)
What I am referring to is the simple physics of torque multiplication based on use of gear ratios. When the front chainring is smaller relative to the size of the cassette gear on the wheel, torque available at the wheel is increased. Conversely when the chainring is larger than the cassette gear, torque available at the wheel is decreased. This is abundantly apparent in non-ebikes as you will downshift when climbing a hill in order to continue pedaling.
If you look at the Bosch Performance Speed mid-drive motor, the motor uses internal gearing to allow the use of a very small chainring. This is specifically purposed to allow the motor to provide more torque than standard mid-drive designs at the class 3 pedelec speeds of up to 28mph.
There is no getting around this problem for mid-drive motors at high speeds. The only realistic solution is to increase motor power to compensate for the loss of torque through the drivetrain in higher gears.
As I said this is not a problem experienced by hub drives as the torque from the motor is applied directly to the wheel hub.
The obvious downside for hub motors is the lack of flexibility at speed. Mid-drive motors can be operating at efficient high motor speeds even when the bike is traveling slowly. Hub motors are stuck with the winding of the motor being designed to operate at it most efficient speed based on the size of the wheel its driving and the predetermined preference for low speed torque or high speed performance.

There are advantages of each type. Understanding them, helps you get the one that will serve your intended purpose best. For me, I use my ebike as a high speed, long distance commuter (30 miles each way at a cruising speed of 28-32 mph). Thus the geared hub motor works very well for me, and has proven to be very efficient as I average ~ 18Wh/ mile even though I am traveling at high speed.

 

[Alaskan]

There should be speed limits that apply to all bikes on a given road, lane, path or trail. We don't designate one road to four cylinder cars and another to V-8s. I see roadies zipping by on 15mph mixed use trails at 25+ all the time. They are no less dangerous to others than Class 3 e-bikes at the same speed.

 

[Alaskan]

No that is not my point. This is not about pedal cadence. (There are reports from mid-drive owners about efficiency improvements based on cadence however.)
What I am referring to is the simple physics of torque multiplication based on use of gear ratios. When the front chainring is smaller relative to the size of the cassette gear on the wheel, torque available at the wheel is increased. Conversely when the chainring is larger than the cassette gear, torque available at the wheel is decreased. This is abundantly apparent in non-ebikes as you will downshift when climbing a hill in order to continue pedaling.
If you look at the Bosch Performance Speed mid-drive motor, the motor uses internal gearing to allow the use of a very small chainring. This is specifically purposed to allow the motor to provide more torque than standard mid-drive designs at the class 3 pedelec speeds of up to 28mph.
There is no getting around this problem for mid-drive motors at high speeds. The only realistic solution is to increase motor power to compensate for the loss of torque through the drivetrain in higher gears.
As I said this is not a problem experienced by hub drives as the torque from the motor is applied directly to the wheel hub.
The obvious downside for hub motors is the lack of flexibility at speed. Mid-drive motors can be operating at efficient high motor speeds even when the bike is traveling slowly. Hub motors are stuck with the winding of the motor being designed to operate at it most efficient speed based on the size of the wheel its driving and the predetermined preference for low speed torque or high speed performance.

There are advantages of each type. Understanding them, helps you get the one that will serve your intended purpose best. For me, I use my ebike as a high speed, long distance commuter (30 miles each way at a cruising speed of 28-32 mph). Thus the geared hub motor works very well for me, and has proven to be very efficient as I average ~ 18Wh/ mile even though I am traveling at high speed.

Thanks for elaborating. I missed your point before but get it now.