Police - questioning the power rating of your E-bike? or Ticketing you?

[Ken M]

Ah. People for Bikes. They're essentially an industry lobbying group in drag. From their website: "The PeopleForBikes Coalition and Foundation boards of directors as well as the BPSA Trade Association Committee members include executives from leading companies in the U.S. bicycle industry. Their collective experience and commitment to better bicycling guide the PeopleForBikes vision. " Their board includes a good number of major US manufacturers, distributors and retailers. Didn't see anyone from a group that represents riders, though. To me, this helps explain the disconnect between what PFB pushes and what we riders actually want.

IOW, they're not out for our benefit...

I 100% agree!!! I believe the drift of 3-class legislation was brought to People for Bikes by Cladia Wasko (not sure if I have the last name correct) along with a large check. She is an executive with Bosch....we must recognize that while Bosch does produce ebike drive systems they are actually the largest car parts producer in the world and certainly have something to gain by keeping ebikes more in the leisure and recreational realm. I'm almost certain they were behind the 250W and 15mph limits in Europe (the 250W limit actually dramatically favors mid-drives over the cheap hub drive motors that would have flooded Europe without this limit).

The sad part is that so many ebike riders believe that PFBs truly cares what is best for the ebike industry. I just wish every ebike rider would take 5 minutes to read HR727 and grasp how much better the LSEB as bike is vs 3-class legislation (I occasionally talk with the lawyer that worked with Dr. Currie for years to get ebikes away from the NHTSA to the CPSC with that definition). Dr. Currie was keenly aware that what has historically limited bike speed was rider power (more fit riders could ride faster) so he wrote the definition with power limit above 20mph (the limit is the power that sustains a 170lb rider on a level surface at 20mph which is from 300-350W). This is not a speed demon ebike but there are a lot of PFBs koolaid drinkers that claim 3-class legislation was needed for clarity and safety.

 

[6zfshdb]

I understand that trail managers think that there is really a difference between a Class 1 and Class 2 bike on trails but if they understood the physics of power then would understand that a rider pedaling a Class 1 ebike is putting more power down (ie more like to move a few more grains of dirt) than a Class 2 rider not pedaling at all. I think it's fair to expect the tax payer workers have to actually critically think before running around banning class 2 ebikes from their trails as they return to watching the next episode of Duck Dynasty.

Now that you mention this, I did have a discussion with a ranger about the class 1 - class 2 issue. He said they get complaints from other riders when they see someone tooling along the trail without pedaling. It really has nothing to do with the bike, It's all between the ears of other riders who are afraid of "motorbikes" on the trail.

 

[Jon A]

I showed him that it was disconnected but he said it didn't matter. He told me they get riders who simply reconnect the throttles when they are alone.

That's not surprising. I go the extra mile and completely remove the throttle and leave it at home. Slap a class one sticker on it and you should be good to go. Many state laws specifically allow this as being fully legal.

 

[retiredNH]

Now that you mention this, I did have a discussion with a ranger about the class 1 - class 2 issue. He said they get complaints from other riders when they see someone tooling along the trail without pedaling. It really has nothing to do with the bike, It's all between the ears of other riders who are afraid of "motorbikes" on the trail.

And the fear is all too often justified. Throttles have the unfortunate side effect of making for more distracted bikers, folks who probably don't even know how fast they're going. You tell me that a fat tire 1000W hub drive with a throttle is just a regular bicycle?

 

[AHicks]

Our Michigan home is next to a large state park. I ride there nearly every day. Obviously, after living here for the last 50+ years, I'm on a wave of the hand familiarity with several resident park rangers, and on several occasions I've approached them for a friendly chat about the weather or whatever. Never have I been asked about the bikes I was on. Same story with sheriff deputies and local police officers.

Here in Florida, same story with my daily rides, which often find me on state and county MUP's. Local LEO's have never given me so much as a second glance. This may be noteworthy for some, as the Florida bike is powered with a Bafang Ultra.

 

[Jon A]

And the fear is all too often justified. Throttles have the unfortunate side effect of making for more distracted bikers, folks who probably don't even know how fast they're going.

The fear is certainly justified between your ears. We know that much for sure. If you have any statistically significant data to share that agrees with what's between your ears, please do share it.

 

[retiredNH]

The fear is certainly justified between your ears. We know that much for sure. If you have any statistically significant data to share that agrees with what's between your ears, please do share it.

I'll share my "statistically significan" data on threats when you share yours on the safety of throttle use compared to non-throttle bikes! I'm waiting...

You seem to forget that perception (that "between your ears" stuff) drives much policy. But I suspect I'm talking to a wall here...

 

[Tars Tarkas]

And the fear is all too often justified. Throttles have the unfortunate side effect of making for more distracted bikers, folks who probably don't even know how fast they're going. You tell me that a fat tire 1000W hub drive with a throttle is just a regular bicycle?

I think it's mostly irrelevant, but as a matter of full-disclosure, my bike has a throttle. I rarely use it, except mainly for a little added acceleration from a stoplight when I'm in city traffic. I am quite sure there is no magic side effect of using it that causes me to be distracted. I guess it's possible, and it takes all kinds, but the idea of a throttle causing distraction seems pretty farfetched to me.

If someone is distracted or a jackass or just an idiot and they are riding recklessly or actually causing any kind of danger to others or themselves, throw the book at them.. That applies regardless of whether they're on an ebike, a regular bike, a donkey cart, in a wheelchair or just walking.

Why is an ebike doing 22 mph with a throttle more dangerous than a regular bike being pedaled 22 mph? (And I'm not saying that 22 mph is automatically dangerous.)

TT

 

[AleksR]

Has anyone been questioned or confronted by local police, or federal park police about the power rating of your bike? Or your operating speed, or classification? If "yes", please tell us about it.

Never. West coast. Cops got better things to do.

 

[JRA]

"but the idea of a throttle causing distraction seems pretty farfetched to me."

Especially if one considers the amount of throttle activated products in the world, including cars.

 

[retiredNH]

"but the idea of a throttle causing distraction seems pretty farfetched to me."

Especially if one considers the amount of throttle activated products in the world, including cars.

You must be kidding? Maybe you've never heard of distracted driving? Maybe you've not noticed the rise in auto deaths the past decade? Of course it's not the throttle that distracts. It's the ease of going faster with a throttle that can lull a rider.

Tars Tarkus, any bike going 22 mph can be dangerous, especially on a busy bike path. But I hope you knew that. What's more dangerous about a throttle is that few riders of acoustic bikes can maintain that speed for long, but it's trivial, until the battery runs out, for an ebike rider to do so. But hopefully you knew that too.

 

[Tars Tarkas]

any bike going 22 mph can be dangerous, especially on a busy bike path. But I hope you knew that.

I said 22 mph isn't automatically dangerous. Of course 22 mph can be dangerous in some situations. So can 3 mph. Is someone with a throttle doing 3 mph more dangerous than someone not using a throttle doing 3 mph?

What's more dangerous about a throttle is that few riders of acoustic bikes can maintain that speed for long, but it's trivial, until the battery runs out, for an ebike rider to do so. But hopefully you knew that too.

Not sure how the condescension helps, but some people on acoustic bikes can maintain their speed for a good while. Anyway, how does not being able to maintain my speed longer matter if I crash into a tree on my acoustic bike?

TT

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

That's not surprising. I go the extra mile and completely remove the throttle and leave it at home. Slap a class one sticker on it and you should be good to go. Many state laws specifically allow this as being fully legal.

Great idea and should solve my issue, never thought of simply removing the throttle for a nice ride in places where the throttle isn’t allowed. Most of the time I’m riding in those places for leisure anyways so don’t need throttle

 

[Gordon71]

Great idea and should solve my issue, never thought of simply removing the throttle for a nice ride in places where the throttle isn’t allowed. Most of the time I’m riding in those places for leisure anyways so don’t need throttle

Thought about it but for me it's a 3.2 mile ride to the closest trail entrance to my house. I don't use my throttle much but I'm also too lazy to downshift when approaching a stop sign so a one second burst will get me rolling again.

 

[Ken M]

I'll share my "statistically significan" data on threats when you share yours on the safety of throttle use compared to non-throttle bikes! I'm waiting...

You seem to forget that perception (that "between your ears" stuff) drives much policy. But I suspect I'm talking to a wall here...

Why some ask for data is because there are so many that claim that ebikes go faster and are less safe. People for Bikes used the "improved safety" claim to justify pushing the 3-class legislation when they know they didn't have any data proving there was any issues with the federal definition in HR727 since 2002 that a "low speed electric bicycle" is essentially the same as a bike.

There is actually a lot of data that shows that ebikes do not raise the top speed that the vast majority of riders achieve during a typical ride because the that speed is always on a downhill with over 95% hitting a speed in excess of 28mph which is faster than the assist limit of a class 3 ebike. What is true is that the average speeds of ebikes is higher but most of that is the result of faster uphill speeds where almost NO accidents occur. What frustrates some on these forums is that faced with facts there are still those that will claim that it's justified to only allow Class 1 ebikes on a MUP ... you honestly don't have any data proving riders using a throttle are more distracted but you claimed it nonetheless.

 

[Ken M]

I said 22 mph isn't automatically dangerous. Of course 22 mph can be dangerous in some situations. So can 3 mph. Is someone with a throttle doing 3 mph more dangerous than someone not using a throttle doing 3 mph?


Not sure how the condescension helps, but some people on acoustic bikes can maintain their speed for a good while. Anyway, how does not being able to maintain my speed longer matter if I crash into a tree on my acoustic bike?

TT

The world record was a guy that averaged something like 33mph for an hour on a flat track. Too many people just assume that a 20mph is too fast for an ebike even though the great majority of riders will go much faster than than on downhills on any bike. I have found that most bike riders tend to ride at safe speeds because when you are one two wheels there really is very little margin for error. The implications that ebikes are just zooming around on MUPs and sidewalks at dangerous speeds are just claimed by some with an agenda.

 

[mschwett]

the whole “but acoustic bikes can go fast downhill” thing is a red herring IMO. most mixed use paths (cities like San Francisco excepted) are relatively flat and one very, very rarely sees anyone going 28mph+. a vehicle which can go 28mph on such a relatively flat path without requiring an extraordinary level of fitness (which typically comes with skill and experience because, well, it takes a LOT of practice!) is not safe. it could be ridden safely in some situations, for sure. but a Vespa could also be ridden safely on such a path, and we all know that’s not allowed and for good reason - because it’s simply too easy to cross over from safe to unsafe.

what i think is most problematic with very low power limits is that they greatly reduce the usefulness of eBikes anywhere with hills, especially for those carrying cargo or children. some combination of speed, power, and weight limits would make logical sense in terms of safety, but would be difficult to enforce and confusing for riders to understand.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

the whole “but acoustic bikes can go fast downhill” thing is a red herring IMO. most mixed use paths (cities like San Francisco excepted) are relatively flat and one very, very rarely sees anyone going 28mph+. a vehicle which can go 28mph on such a relatively flat path without requiring an extraordinary level of fitness (which typically comes with skill and experience because, well, it takes a LOT of practice!) is not safe. it could be ridden safely in some situations, for sure. but a Vespa could also be ridden safely on such a path, and we all know that’s not allowed and for good reason - because it’s simply too easy to cross over from safe to unsafe.

what i think is most problematic with very low power limits is that they greatly reduce the usefulness of eBikes anywhere with hills, especially for those carrying cargo or children. some combination of speed, power, and weight limits would make logical sense in terms of safety, but would be difficult to enf

the whole “but acoustic bikes can go fast downhill” thing is a red herring IMO. most mixed use paths (cities like San Francisco excepted) are relatively flat and one very, very rarely sees anyone going 28mph+. a vehicle which can go 28mph on such a relatively flat path without requiring an extraordinary level of fitness (which typically comes with skill and experience because, well, it takes a LOT of practice!) is not safe. it could be ridden safely in some situations, for sure. but a Vespa could also be ridden safely on such a path, and we all know that’s not allowed and for good reason - because it’s simply too easy to cross over from safe to unsafe.

what i think is most problematic with very low power limits is that they greatly reduce the usefulness of eBikes anywhere with hills, especially for those carrying cargo or children. some combination of speed, power, and weight limits would make logical sense in terms of safety, but would be difficult to enforce and confusing for riders to understand.

good poon

the whole “but acoustic bikes can go fast downhill” thing is a red herring IMO. most mixed use paths (cities like San Francisco excepted) are relatively flat and one very, very rarely sees anyone going 28mph+. a vehicle which can go 28mph on such a relatively flat path without requiring an extraordinary level of fitness (which typically comes with skill and experience because, well, it takes a LOT of practice!) is not safe. it could be ridden safely in some situations, for sure. but a Vespa could also be ridden safely on such a path, and we all know that’s not allowed and for good reason - because it’s simply too easy to cross over from safe to unsafe.

what i think is most problematic with very low power limits is that they greatly reduce the usefulness of eBikes anywhere with hills, especially for those carrying cargo or children. some combination of speed, power, and weight limits would make logical sense in terms of safety, but would be difficult to enforce and confusing for riders to understand.

Good point! I pretty much hold 22mph if no one is around and feel very safe. I’ve only been passed once by a road bike and he was in top shape and doing way over 30 because he blew by me like I wasn’t moving. Other than that, everyone rides very safe whether ebike or not. Where it seems the most dangerous and most need for rules is highly congested places like beach walks and urban cities. Last time we were in San Diego my kids almost got ran over multiple times going to the beach by ebikes. With power and torque they just go too quick for congested areas like that. Ive started to cut my motor when I’m in busy places and crosswalks just so I don’t accidentally pedal and it jumps on me. I also don’t like the idea of blanket banning ebikes and scooters in congested areas but need some common sense that you can’t blast through them.

 

[HansTrio]

A little bit of exaggeration? As a drone flyer, I'd say so...but it's true that all it takes is a few show offs for any activity to bring the rules down on the rest of us. With ebikes, a big part of the problem is speeding on bike paths. OTOH, bike paths are their own problem, at least in urban areas, aren't they? But *some* ebikes are unique in their ability to call attention to themselves, especially the fat tire ebikes that look (and sometimes drive?) more like motor scooters than bikes. People operating in throttle only mode also tend to be a bit more threatening to the non-motorized crowd, IMHO. After all, they're clearly different from regular bikes in that they don't need to be pedaled.

The point I was making was that there are a lot of regulations now whereas there were not at the beginning.
And many of them came about because individuals did not use self control.

That said, lawmakers always look for ways to make their mark and many don't see your need to do as you like to do as necessary or acceptable.

 

[Ken M]

the whole “but acoustic bikes can go fast downhill” thing is a red herring IMO. most mixed use paths (cities like San Francisco excepted) are relatively flat and one very, very rarely sees anyone going 28mph+. a vehicle which can go 28mph on such a relatively flat path without requiring an extraordinary level of fitness (which typically comes with skill and experience because, well, it takes a LOT of practice!) is not safe. it could be ridden safely in some situations, for sure. but a Vespa could also be ridden safely on such a path, and we all know that’s not allowed and for good reason - because it’s simply too easy to cross over from safe to unsafe.

what i think is most problematic with very low power limits is that they greatly reduce the usefulness of eBikes anywhere with hills, especially for those carrying cargo or children. some combination of speed, power, and weight limits would make logical sense in terms of safety, but would be difficult to enforce and confusing for riders to understand.

How is downhill speed a distraction from this subject? The fact is that the vast majority of bike riders including children go faster than 20mph on a acoustic / regular bike on downhills. This data exists and it was shown in the largest bike study Europe ever conducted from what I read. I'm merely trying to point out that I don't think over 20mph is automatically and unsafe fast speed as so many in these forums always seem to be implying and it's always in the context of implying that an ebike with an assist past 20mph is danger on MUPs (there is your red herring).

You touched on the subject I have been trying to point out on this forum many times. The federal definition provides for peak power above 750W (because that is not the limit it's a motor rating) below 20mph and the power is limited above 20mph to what would sustain a 170lb rider on a level surface at 20mph motor alone (which is about 300-350W). Power is what limits a riders speeds on any bike so that is exactly what should be used to limit an ebikes speed (that is why the PhD electrical engineer that drafted the federal definition used those constraints as the NHTSA was insisting that motor alone could not provide more than 20mph to be a LSEB under CPSC jurisdiction as a bike. When I point this out all the mamby pambies claim I want to allow electric motorcycles on trails which is not true - they just refuse to spend the time to understand the federal definition of a "low speed electric bicycle."

This about that for a second. Below 20mph even 2000W is acceptable and no no one should freak out as the bike manufacturers will only have a drive system capable of that on utility / cargo bikes because a single rider on a ebike simply has excess power at 750W to do 20mph and above 20mph the power is limited per the constraints.

Again I emphasis that power is the right parameter to limit speed with ... not the stupid assist limits that People for Bikes came up with and promoted to the states. Brain dead is brain dead...I'm sorry they should have known power should be used to limit bike speed because that's what has limited bike speed since they were invented (oh but they were getting paid lobby money to turn off their brains).