Pinion Motor.Gearbox.Unit (MGU)

[Rás Cnoic]

It is 2025 now? 2024 went by so fast!

He can't help himself. No interest he says, in Pinion MGU. No interest but he can't stop himself trolling.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

He can't help himself. No interest he says, in Pinion MGU. No interest but he can't stop himself trolling.

Let me tell you a little prophecy: No one of you will ever buy a Pinion.MGU
Talking is free.
Of the three videos I liked the one with the man riding DH all the time. Why would he need a motor? The other video was a stationary Nicolai, and two clips of an unindentified MTB riding. In the EMBN one, Steve Jones listened to the story told by another guy...

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Let me tell you a little prophecy: No one of you will ever buy a Pinion.MGU
Talking is free.
Of the three videos I liked the one with the man riding DH all the time. Why would he need a motor? The other video was a stationary Nicolai, and two clips of an unindentified MTB riding. In the EMBN one, Steve Jones listened to the story told by another guy...

Why do you care?

If you now need to own the same model of bike on the forums to comment on that forum why are you always trolling threads on hub motors, Bosch Shimano Yamaha and so forth that you don't own and have no valuable insights?

Why is any of this important to you if you have zero interest?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

why are you always trolling threads on hub motors, Bosch Shimano Yamaha

It's an outright lie.
I own a hub drive motor e-bike. I owned a Giant/Yamaha E-MTB. I do not mind Shimano or Bosch. I do, however, detest:

• The throttle
• Chinese junk
• DIY based on the two above

I also laugh at the "revolutionary inventions the Hell is paved with".

It is quite interesting so much here is told about free speech, only expressing realist views that do not agree with yours is wrong?

 

[Rás Cnoic]

It's an outright lie.
I own a hub drive motor e-bike. I owned a Giant/Yamaha E-MTB. I do not mind Shimano or Bosch. I do, however, detest:

• The throttle
• Chinese junk
• DIY based on the two above

I also laugh at the "revolutionary inventions the Hell is paved with".

It is quite interesting so much here is told about free speech, only expressing realist views that do not agree with yours is wrong?

Yet you stick your nose in where you have no skin in the game and are immediately rude about bikes, brands, or style of bikes. Why the need to be derogatory all the time? If you were genuinely interested you wouldn't be so rude or dismissive and get people's back up. I used to think it was a language issue, that you didn't realise how condescending you sound but it's clear that A your English is perfect and B you do it deliberately as a troll. As an example - I have no need of a throttle or any interest in them but I wouldn't stick my nose in just to be nasty, on a thread where people who like that kind of bike are happily discussing it. You are not the taste police here. Either try and be nice or say nothing at all, when like here, you just end up displaying ignorance and bile and have no other reason to comment.

Revolutionary inventions hell is paved with... like Suspension? Like One By drive trains, Like Carbon Fibre? Disk brakes? IGH?

Like maybe ...

Electric Bicycles?

 

[Explorer-1]

Do you mean the jumps between gears are too large for continual smooth cadence? That can be an issue with IGHs or gear boxes.

I think the step is OK; just that the lowest gear is probably much lower than I need, making the highest gear not high enough. In theory i think It could be fixed with a larger front sprocket. My investigation showed very limited options, and then having to find the correct belt may not be easy. I don't know the gear-inch range of the bike, but i should try to calculate it for my Juiced RCS (about perfect for an e-bike), and the 600X. The max torque on the gearbox is maybe lower than one might thing or something. Maybe an 18 speed would be the better everyday pinion rather than the 12 speed and designed for steep hills.

 

[mschwett]

I think the step is OK; just that the lowest gear is probably much lower than I need, making the highest gear not high enough. In theory i think It could be fixed with a larger front sprocket. My investigation showed very limited options, and then having to find the correct belt may not be easy. I don't know the gear-inch range of the bike, but i should try to calculate it for my Juiced RCS (about perfect for an e-bike), and the 600X. The max torque on the gearbox is maybe lower than one might thing or something. Maybe an 18 speed would be the better everyday pinion rather than the 12 speed and designed for steep hills.

i think the real advantage or need for closely spaced gears is when you’re trying to provide most of the power yourself for at least some of the ride. on my commuter i sometimes wish for more gears (it has a 4 speed IGH) but it’s not that big of a deal.

on my road bike i have 11-15 in single tooth steps, and then 17, 19, 21, 24 etc. i find those 10% changes in both directions really key to maintaining a good efficient steady cadence particularly on long flat-ish stretches. electric motors care much less about that, with a wider working range, so if the motor is doing most of the work who needs all those gears!!!

the 24% steps on the c1.9 don’t sound too great, but presumably the motor is doing more work on these bikes.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

i think the real advantage or need for closely spaced gears is when you’re trying to provide most of the power yourself for at least some of the ride. on my commuter i sometimes wish for more gears (it has a 4 speed IGH) but it’s not that big of a deal.

on my road bike i have 11-15 in single tooth steps, and then 17, 19, 21, 24 etc. i find those 10% changes in both directions really key to maintaining a good efficient steady cadence particularly on long flat-ish stretches. electric motors care much less about that, with a wider working range, so if the motor is doing most of the work who needs all those gears!!!

the 24% steps on the c1.9 don’t sound too great, but presumably the motor is doing more work on these bikes.

Like you, I like to do a lot of the work myself. On old habit from my cycling past, I try to solve cadence problems with gear changes before messing with assist level. And 15% gear steps do that well.

After a few iterations, my 70 lb torque-sensing hub-drive now has a 10-speed 1x drivetrain well matched to my terrain and 80-90 RPM preferred cadence. The 40t chainring and 11-42t cassette give a 385% gear range in 15% steps.

This 26-100 gear-inch range meets my needs 90-95% of the time, but 22-105 would be ideal. Since this bike is probably maxed out at 10 speeds, I'd need 19% steps to get that. And I'd be stuck with those big steps 100% of the time.

So I'll stick with the 15% steps I have. Even the 17% steps on my friend's Level.2 are too wide for my taste.

 

[mschwett]

Like you, I like to do a lot of the work myself. On old habit from my cycling past, I try to solve cadence problems with gear changes before messing with assist level. And 15% gear steps do that well.

After a few iterations, my 70 lb torque-sensing hub-drive now has a 10-speed 1x drivetrain well matched to my terrain and 80-90 RPM preferred cadence. The 40t chainring and 11-42t cassette give a 385% gear range in 15% steps.

This 26-100 gear-inch range meets my needs 90-95% of the time, but 22-105 would be ideal. Since this bike is probably maxed out at 10 speeds, I'd need 19% steps to get that. And I'd be stuck with those big steps 100% of the time.

So I'll stick with the 15% steps I have. Even the 17% steps on my friend's Level.2 are too wide for my taste.

on my 1x bikes i ended up at 10-42, very similar. 11 speeds makes the steps about the same as your 10 speed 11-42, very workable.

i’ve now gotten spoiled by the smaller steps on 2x bikes, but there really are very few 2x drivetrain e-bikes, for good reasons mostly. my e-road bike has the same 28-126 gear inches as my acoustic road bike, i just like them being exactly the same even though it’s doesn’t totally make sense when one of them has a motor

 

[scrambler]

Having less / wider gears does not affect the balance of your effort versus the bike power at all.

On a torque based sensor pedal assist you decide how much power you use by choosing the proper assist level. The larger gear range on an IGH with less gears will only mean you will pedal at a less even cadence, from a little slower than usual to a little faster. But you will still be able to work as hard as you want.

You can always adjust the effort needed between the gear and the pedal assist level. the execution will simply be on a larger cadence range

I practice that all the time on my bike with a Kindernay VII and a torque based pedal assist, as I do like to provide a significant effort while pedaling

 

[il Munduato]

I agree that you can always find a working equilibrium but the 15% is a nice comfortable gear change often not requiring much or any PAS and/or effort adjustments as you roll through minimally varying terrain. It just feels friendly.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Having less / wider gears does not affect the balance of your effort versus the bike power at all.

On a torque based sensor pedal assist you decide how much power you use by choosing the proper assist level. The larger gear range on an IGH with less gears will only mean you will pedal at a less even cadence, from a little slower than usual to a little faster. But you will still be able to work as hard as you want.

You can always adjust the effort needed between the gear and the pedal assist level. the execution will simply be on a larger cadence range

I practice that all the time on my bike with a Kindernay VII and a torque based pedal assist, as I do like to provide a significant effort while pedaling

All true, but the wider cadence range is precisely the issue for me — or rather for my knees. They're fine at 85±5 RPM. The slower I pedal below that, the more they complain.

The beauty of an ebike: Between my lowered gearing, 15% gear steps, 9 torque-sensing assist levels, and short bursts of my progressive on-demand throttle now and then, I can keep them in their happy place at any desired exertion level on all but the steepest hills.

Then my rides become time- or butt-limited rather than knee-limited. And 3 saddles later, I'm making progress on the butt front.

 

[il Munduato]

Let me tell you a little prophecy: No one of you will ever buy a Pinion.MGU
Talking is free.
Of the three videos I liked the one with the man riding DH all the time. Why would he need a motor? The other video was a stationary Nicolai, and two clips of an unindentified MTB riding. In the EMBN one, Steve Jones listened to the story told by another guy...

I remember buying a Plasma TV quite a bit more than a year before anyone else I knew had one. There was a lot of interest at the time as I see now with the MGU, but it took time to become affordable and trickle into the established market. I do think in the end it may be like a Rohloff.. a little bit more than many are willing to spend when the alternatives are functional.

 

[mschwett]

…You can always adjust the effort needed between the gear and the pedal assist level. the execution will simply be on a larger cadence range

true in the abstract sense, of course you can provide 200w of leg power at 60rpm or at 90rpm. in reality, human performance is much more limited than that, and many people only do their best at a narrower range of cadence, especially over very long periods of time. a very long ride at low cadence - even 5-10pm low - is tough on the knees and a high cadence is actually somewhat less efficient especially if you’re not clipped in. and of course the less you provide, the more the motor needs to achieve a given speed.

i’m talking about fairly small differences here, but over very long distances with mostly human power it matters. there’s a reason bike gearing was the way it was before motors.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Bosch E-Bike does not seem to be worried by Pinion.MGU

 

[Stefan Mikes]

'Pinion is a relatively small company'.

 

[Explorer-1]

i think the real advantage or need for closely spaced gears is when you’re trying to provide most of the power yourself for at least some of the ride. on my commuter i sometimes wish for more gears (it has a 4 speed IGH) but it’s not that big of a deal.

on my road bike i have 11-15 in single tooth steps, and then 17, 19, 21, 24 etc. i find those 10% changes in both directions really key to maintaining a good efficient steady cadence particularly on long flat-ish stretches. electric motors care much less about that, with a wider working range, so if the motor is doing most of the work who needs all those gears!!!

the 24% steps on the c1.9 don’t sound too great, but presumably the motor is doing more work on these bikes.

The steps on my 600x, which uses the c12, is 17.7%. That is a bit high, the 18 gear unit is just over 11% per step, so that might make a real difference for me with my rather low cadence. If it was on an e-bike, I’m sure the 12 gear would be fine, not sure about the 6 gear unit though on the Lectric One.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Aren't you guys excited with SRAM Transmission? Because I am. Much more than with the Pinion.MGU

 

[mschwett]

transmission is interesting - but hardly as revolutionary as SRAM likes to claim. the eccentric machining of lots of ramps and bumps in the cassette has been a feature of higher end shimano cassettes for a long time, and for normal mortals they shift very nicely under load.

what is interesting is the direct mount system for the RD, and all the extra stiffness that provides. i hope other manufacturers find a way to similarly improve the derailleur hanger system, which serves a purpose but is the only really remaining fiddly part of a modern electronic drivetrain.

Aren't you guys excited with SRAM Transmission? Because I am. Much more than with the Pinion.MGU

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Bosch E-Bike does not seem to be worried by Pinion.MGU

Could of sworn I posted the same link in this thread last week where I said:

Interestingly, today there is another review/discussion with Alan Jones and the head of Bosch bike systems Claus Fleische, testing his own Nicolai/Bosch prototype with a Bosch CX race motor coupled with Gates Carbon Drive and a 3x3 internal gear hub.



The fact that Bosch have a prototype of this non derailleur Emtb and are happy to go public with it (deliberately going public) suggests the emtb industry is looking long and hard at non derailleur drive trains for electric mountain bikes.