Optimizing Specialized Creo Expert SL with 1.1 motor for 60 miles at 25mph

Nubnub said:
EVGO is for cars, either around 400 VDC or 240 VAC are used. If you look at the connectors, they are almost the size of the range extender battery. So an adapter will be at least as bulky as well. Even if an adapter were available, who wants to stick around for hours guarding their thousands of dollars bike waiting for it to charge? If you do plan to take a trip that exceeds the built in as well as a couple of range extenders - you are talking about carrying the SL charger with you - it's not tiny but it will be easier to find an available AC outlet. Still have the problem of securing the bike while it charges. If travelling with a range extender and on the go charging is needed- probably worthwhile to invest in the Y charging cable so you could charge both the internal and range extender at the same time.
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I would like to average 20 to 25mph on a 105 mile ride. I would return on the same route the next day. I am willing to accept 15 to 20mph. I expect to run out of battery power.

My idea is to push myself and the bike as hard as possible for the 50 miles from Denver to Greely. Rest for two hours in Greely. Recharge battery. Repeat the same from Greely to Fort Collins.
 
Nubnub said:
EVGO is for cars, either around 400 VDC or 240 VAC are used. If you look at the connectors, they are almost the size of the range extender battery. So an adapter will be at least as bulky as well. Even if an adapter were available, who wants to stick around for hours guarding their thousands of dollars bike waiting for it to charge? If you do plan to take a trip that exceeds the built in as well as a couple of range extenders - you are talking about carrying the SL charger with you - it's not tiny but it will be easier to find an available AC outlet. Still have the problem of securing the bike while it charges. If travelling with a range extender and on the go charging is needed- probably worthwhile to invest in the Y charging cable so you could charge both the internal and range extender at the same time.
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I see what you mean. I would be better off with a battery that could charge the extender while riding. Start the ride powered only from the extender. Drain it. Ride on the main battery while the extender recharges. Clever.

Power bankEdit
A power bank is a portable device that can supply power from its built-in battery through a USB port. Power banks are popular for charging USB charged devices and can be used as a power supply for various USB powered devices such as lights and small fans. They usually recharge with a USB power supply. The power bank includes a control circuit that both regulates charging of the battery and converts the battery voltage to 5.0 volts for the USB port.[citation needed]
 
BikeMike said:
Useful website. Some charging stations adjacent to bike path.
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Lol, if only. I think publicly accessible charging for ebikes would be so cool. I also think it can never happen since ebikes don't use the same charging standard and even if they all did, the numbers wouldn't justify the costs. What would be cool is if Specialized would partner with someone and give them the chargers to be publicly accessible. Not sure what type of business would work for the couple hrs charge time currently needed. Maybe a movie theater. Or if ebikes eventually came up with "faster" charging then restaurants/dining become an obvious choice.
 
BikeMike said:
I see what you mean. I would be better off with a battery that could charge the extender while riding. Start the ride powered only from the extender. Drain it. Ride on the main battery while the extender recharges. Clever.

Power bankEdit
A power bank is a portable device that can supply power from its built-in battery through a USB port. Power banks are popular for charging USB charged devices and can be used as a power supply for various USB powered devices such as lights and small fans. They usually recharge with a USB power supply. The power bank includes a control circuit that both regulates charging of the battery and converts the battery voltage to 5.0 volts for the USB port.[citation needed]
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I think a power bank would be > size/weight than just carrying another range extender.

I do think your plan to go 100 miles @ 20-25 miles an hour is doable depending on fast you currently ride the same distance/conditions. Obviously headwinds/climbs will negatively affect this but if you are already close to 20 mph, the Creo in ECO mode should put you over 20 mph and with range extender last the entire trip. I've seen some videos where very fit riders claim the 80 mile range is not an issue for them.
 
BikeMike said:
Yes. The Creo SL Comp. Pedal 50 miles. Rest and recharge battery. Ride the next 50 miles.
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Every e-bike brand/model (especially the brands using mid-drive motors) have their own proprietary battery management system and chargers, not even mentioning different charging ports. A Brose-equipped Haibike is different from Brose-equipped Bulls and both are different from Brose-equipped Specialized. Now, Mahle-equipped Specialized e-bike (SL) has a different system from Brose-based Specialized e-bike. The idea of public charging stations for e-bikes is not practical at all.
 
Perhaps, i framed the question imprecisely. A more quantifable question for planning purposes follows. I am trying reason about the solution, more than calculate the answer.

  • I am looking for a general ratio of human to motor power that maximizes speed and optimizes battery consumption.
    • My guess is 2:1 power ratio, @ 22 mph for four hours or 88 miles.
    • Therefore, i will pedal 12 miles unpowered over 100 miles.
    • The elapsed time is TBD.
    • A 2:1 ratio is another way of expressing Eco mode.
    • Therefore, I should be able to make my 105 mile trip by turing off power on the downhill sections.
      • Set three power modes to 05%, 17% and 33%.
      • 5% rather than turing off power.
      • Or, roughly 20:1, 4:1 and 2:1 human to motor power ratios
    • In adverse conditions, my backup plan is to recharge during lunch.
  • Let's simplify any parameter that upsets the ratio in a significant manner, by assuming a reasonable default,
    • i.e, wind less than 5 mph.
    • Excellent aerobic capacity and leg strength

The goal is determine how far i must pedal unpowered.
  • I am willing to pedal unpowered for some distance ratio, depending on average powered speed.
  • I am willing to stop and recharge batteries during food break(s), for some ratio of time, given average speed.

At what approximate speed range is battery consumption optimized?
  • over a 100 mile course (along two rivers)
  • on relatively flat terrain, i.e., both gradually gaining and losing 1,000 feet per 50 miles
  • assuming 240 watts (same as motor)
  • Obviously, using the capacity of both batteries for Creo SL Comp Carbon
  • More parameters might be necessary?
  • What recharge strategy might minimize recharge delay?
    • Recharge battery from 40% to 80% ?
  • I don't have a power meter for my bike, but buying one might eliminate guesswork.
  • I am just trying to build a few profiles to categorize scenarios
    • 15 to 20 mph
    • 21 to 26 mph
    • Or any meaningful speed ranges

To establish a progressive training program that eventually allows me to reach 100 miles:
  • Turn around at half battery power, if distance is less than 55 miles.
    • Set three power modes to 05%, 17% and 33%.
    • 5% rather than turing off power
    • 20:1, 4:1 and 2:1 human to motor power ratios
  • At halfway point, recharge time is dictated by time needed to recharge to half capacity.
  • Which head unit gives most precise and/or useful battery and power information?
I feel fairly confident that a fast (22mph average speed), 100 mile ride is feasible with useful information and a car charging station network. The primary unanswered question is the best battery strategy?

  1. At what battery capacity level should the battery be recharged? (40%) ?
  2. What level should the battery be recharged to? (80%) ?
  3. I prefer to rely completely on the main battery, to save weight and expense.
  4. My guess is two stops are required, about 33 miles apart?
 
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I am learning more about the battery from the Specialized Levo forums, rather than Creo. Levo is the mountain bike model. Levo riders seem to stress the battery more than Creo riders.

I am learning that the battery pack configuration, series and parallel, affects charging rate. I am also learning that certain cell characteristics such as chemistry also affects charging rates. Battery chemistry and cell construction is a fairly technical topic, so progress is slow.

I am not convinced that the Specialized SL battery pack is the tool for my goal. I am under the impression the electrical system is designed to make the bike as easy to ride as possible, rather than to make it go as fast as or as far as possible. An excellent balance of compromises is difficult to achieve.

Venn2.png

I use a Venn diagram to analyze compromises:

A - Battery Capacity
B - Battery Charging
C - Battery Convenience

You can name the intersections to understand your needs.

S - Symmetry a 1:1:1 ratio of equally balanced factors

AB - Practical, Highly Inconvenient, Typical charging rate.
  • The internal Specialized SL Battery Pack seems positioned inside AB.
  • Battery pack can only be removed by first removing the bottom bracket motor
BC - Fast charging rate, Small battery capacity, Convenient
  • My need
SC - Highly convenient, low capacity, very slow charging rate
  • Specialized SL "Extender"
  • External bottle cage
My conclusion:
  1. The internal battery is acceptable at AB.
  2. The external battery is unacceptable.
    1. The opposite of my needs.
  3. The perfect solution is the Extender with a 6A charger.
    1. I could recharge it while taking a break, e.g., food or drink.
 
BikeMike said:
The perfect solution is the Extender with a 6A charger.
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Wrong assumption, that can not be done, BMS will block it. Hopefully you didn't bought a 6amps charger yet.
Even the main battery , can only be charged at 4amps. Go higher amps if Bms allows it and risk ruining the cells chemistry.
 
he Creo does have threaded holes on the drop outs for rack mounting. Rather than making the attachment to the seat post itself, order the Specialized rear rack seat collar. This is a seat post clamp with threaded side holes for a rack attachment.
 

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But I can't find the correct dimension of 30.8 mm, whose reference should be, according to the manual, S184700001
 
kahn said:
It weighs 35 pounds. And is 14x10x12 inches. Might be a bit large and I have no idea if it has sufficient power for charging.
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I don't know either - looking for advice. We're boondocking in an r/v. Thinking if this would be a viable solution rather than using the r/v batteries when parked.
 
sdbikegirl said:
I don't know either - looking for advice. We're boondocking in an r/v. Thinking if this would be a viable solution rather than using the r/v batteries when parked.
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@Kam1936: Are you there? An advice is needed. I can remember you were using Jackery with your solar panels?
 
sdbikegirl said:
Not sure my question fits this thread - would a Jackery Explorer 1500 Portable Power Station (https://www.jackery.com/products/explorer-1500-portable-power-station) provide enough power to recharge the Creo?
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the jackery unit claims up to 1800w of sustained output, wayyyyyy more than is needed for the SL charger, which has a max/peak input of just 2.5 amps; at 110v that's <300w. given that it takes 2.5 hours to recharge a 320wH battery, we can also see that on average it outputs less than 150w, assuming electrical efficiency in the 80-90% range which is typical for a small transformer like this.

depending on that efficiency, it should be able to charge your creo SL four times or so. unfortunately the power is getting converted many times here - ACinput source for charging the jackery to DC in the jackery's battery, back to AC for the outlet on the jackery, and then back to DC to go into the creo, so the overall efficiency is not good. it would be very interesting to dig deeper into the specification of the creo's charging port and see what it would take to charge it (slowly) directly from a solar array! most battery systems like this have the smarts of the charging in the battery or device itself, rather than the charger, but who knows how specialized has done it...
 
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