Optimizing Specialized Creo Expert SL with 1.1 motor for 60 miles at 25mph

[BikeMike]

I wouldn't get the power meter just to determine if you want the Creo or not. If it's something you want for your bikes then sure go ahead and get it.

Looking at https://www.omnicalculator.com/sports/cycling-wattage and entering about 250 lbs for u and bike, slick tires, riding the hoods, new chain, 0 wind speed/grade and 5000 feet elevation I get: 20 mph is 179 W, 25 mph is 311 W and 28 mph is 417 W. Just a 5 mph headwind would increase these to 249, 418, 550 W. As this is the first time I've looked at this calculator I can't vouch for its accuracy, but it does support that wind speed will have a major impact on how effective the Creo's assist will help you achieve your goal.

Let's assume the above is close enough to speculate further. If you currently cruise comfortably at 20-25 mph on flat windless days - you'd appear to be producing between the 179 and 311 W. So with no wind you'd need between 238 to 106 W of assistance. If you're only going 20 mph, you're only producing 179 W and the Creo will only match that on Tubo mode (or maybe only 90% of that depending on how the 1.8 X you claim works). So on a windless day that won't get you to 28 mph. But if you are going 25 mph, then you only need the 106 W of assistance which the Creo can add - you shouldn't need full assist and it's likely even the built in battery of 320 Wh should be enough for the 53 miles. Of course as it always does, headwind can mess everything up.

Thank you. Certain things about the Creo put serious doubt in mind. I have a feeling the bike will be useful in some cases, but too limited in many circumstances. The bottom bracket area seems too constrained. The stock gearing is orientated to a slower speed than 28mph. I get the impression that i would be swapping components to adjust to circumstances.

The bike is designed to satisify a certain set of compromises. It's unclear how those compromises result in a big benefit to me. I see some benefits, though.

 

[BikeMike]

Thank you. Certain things about the Creo put serious doubt in mind. I have a feeling the bike will be useful in some cases, but too limited in many circumstances. The bottom bracket area seems too constrained. The stock gearing is orientated to a slower speed than 28mph. I get the impression that i would be swapping components to adjust to circumstances.

The bike is designed to satisify a certain set of compromises. It's unclear how those compromises result in a big benefit to me. I see some benefits, though.

One compromise is between a powered and unpowered range. The motor supposedly decouples with unnoticeable drag. I can accept slogging on a 27 to 30 pound bike for about ten miles. I have a REI CTY bike that i love. Belt driven, 8 speed Alfine, racks. Great for shopping or days that i do not want to deal with maintenance. There's a hard limit to how far I will ride the bike. I have very different expectations.

I have a hard time with average speed the Creo (sounds like Oreo) is designed for over a long distance, e.g., a few hours. For a long distance, A few miles per hour average speed is significant. The optimal radius for the Creo is probably around 30 miles. Perhaps, all Class 3 bikes are optimized for a 30 mile radius? I am looking for an ebike optimized for a 60 mile radius, with an average speed over 22mph.

The compromise on average speed is less flexible than the compromise on unpowered distance.

I don't have enough information to make a decisive decision. I will wait to hear back from Specialized. I have more focused follow up questions for them. What compromises were they balancing?

 

[BikeMike]

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[BikeMike]

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate how the designers might have reasoned about the Creo. The question is how well my needs match design constraints.

Substitute the ABC variables that are most important to you.

A - Unpowered Characteristics

1. Weight
2. Gearing
3. Decoupled motor resistance

B - Powered Characteristics

1. Battery Range: 30, 60 mile radius @ 22mph
2. Maximum speed, 28mph

C - Ride Characteristics

1. Aerodynamics
2. Bike geometry
3. Tire pressure, maximum tire width
4. Rack carrying capacity

S - stands for Symmetry, which means equally balanced, or a 1:1:1 ratio.

​

The harder part is naming the subsets:

​

1. AB - High Performance​
2. SB - eBike-orientated​
3. BC - Elegant​
4. SC - Ride-orientated​
5. AC - Efficiency-orientated​
6. SA - Road Cyclist-orientated​

 

[BikeMike]

What I can’t wrap my mind around is why someone in your condition and ability would even consider an ebike. You’re the stereotype person that tells those of us on ebikes that we’re “cheaters”.

Dave
Loveland, CO

Dave,

I try to be careful about generalizations. All sorts of cyclists exists. It sounds like a skiing vs. snowboarding argument to me. I both ski and snowboard. One is better than the other under specific circumstances.

I own a 2015 Specialized Diverge. The Creo frame comes from the Diverge geometry. I love the compromises that make the Diverge what it is.

I have always had an engineering interest in eBikes. I never liked the dull feel of heavy eBikes. I think different bikes suit different purposes. I am looking for a eBike capable of a 60 mile radius at an average speed of 22mph. I am will to ride a 30-pound bike unpowered for ten miles, when the battery exhausts itself.

 

[BikeMike]

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate how the designers might have reasoned about the Creo. The question is how well my needs match design constraints.

Substitute the ABC variables that are most important to you.

A - Unpowered Characteristics

1. Weight
2. Gearing
3. Decoupled motor resistance

B - Powered Characteristics

1. Battery Range: 30, 60 mile radius @ 22mph
2. Maximum speed, 28mph

C - Ride Characteristics

1. Aerodynamics
2. Bike geometry
3. Tire pressure, maximum tire width
4. Rack carrying capacity

S - stands for Symmetry, which means equally balanced, or a 1:1:1 ratio.

View attachment 56856
​

The harder part is naming the subsets:

​

1. AB - High Performance​
2. SB - eBike-orientated​
3. BC - Elegant​
4. SC - Ride-orientated​
5. AC - Efficiency-orientated​
6. SA - Road Cyclist-orientated​

The Creo strikes me as AC - Efficiency-orientated. The designers seem to have favored A: Unpowered Characteristics over B: Powered Characteristics. C: Ride Characteristics seem to take priority over B: Powered Characteristics. The implications are that range and average speed are perhaps over-compromised for me to see a big benefits.

I suppose I am looking for AB - High Performance combination.

 

[BikeMike]

Dave,

I try to be careful about generalizations. All sorts of cyclists exists. It sounds like a skiing vs. snowboarding argument to me. I both ski and snowboard. One is better than the other under specific circumstances.

I own a 2015 Specialized Diverge. The Creo frame comes from the Diverge geometry. I love the compromises that make the Diverge what it is.

I have always had an engineering interest in eBikes. I never liked the dull feel of heavy eBikes. I think different bikes suit different purposes. I am looking for a eBike capable of a 60 mile radius at an average speed of 22mph. I am will to ride a 30-pound bike unpowered for ten miles, when the battery exhausts itself.

More succienctly, the question i am struggling with is: Is the Creo Expert a substantially improved or merely a different Diverge derivative?

I do not like the bottom bracket compromise: single chainring for motor width. I do not like the gear ratio for 28mph speeds. These compromises can be adjusted by swapping components. The higher weight for electric power compromise is a clear improvement.

The Creo has many additional enhancements that evolved since 2015 Diverge.

I am on the fence about this one. It's a borderline case that can go either way depending on specific circumstances.

 

[BikeMike]

More succienctly, the question i am struggling with is: Is the Creo Expert a substantially improved or merely a different Diverge derivative?

I do not like the bottom bracket compromise: single chainring for motor width. I do not like the gear ratio for 28mph speeds. These compromises can be adjusted by swapping components. The higher weight for electric power compromise is a clear improvement.

The Creo has many additional enhancements that evolved since 2015 Diverge.

I am on the fence about this one. It's a borderline case that can go either way depending on specific circumstances.

I do not like the small chainring. I am anxious to shift to the 50t chainring as soon as possible, i.e., 15mph. The small chainring on my mountain bike bugs me above 25mph. It feels weak or spins out. The drivetrain feel and responsivess matters to me.

 

[jim6b]

As there is a Creo in my future, I have an interest in your thoughts to which I would add, that my interest is in using the "e" feature for assist hill climbing. Judging from reviewer comments this is an important consideration and I would think Specialized focused on meeting it.

Good luck with your inquiry. At some point you might look at the Domane +. With its 4X you motor and 500wh battery it seems to be favoring speed.

 

[BikeMike]

I do not like the small chainring. I am anxious to shift to the 50t chainring as soon as possible, i.e., 15mph. The small chainring on my mountain bike bugs me above 25mph. It feels weak or spins out. The drivetrain feel and responsivess matters to me.

Another way to answer the question is:

Would i trade in my 2015 Diverge for a Creo? No.
Would i find discrete instances that i would clearly prefer the Creo over Diverge? Yes.
Would a great deal of overlap exist? Certainly.
Do i have space for another bike? Not really.

 

[BikeMike]

Another way to answer the question is:

Would i trade in my 2015 Diverge for a Creo? No.
Would i find discrete instances that i would clearly prefer the Creo over Diverge? Yes.
Would a great deal of overlap exist? Certainly.
Do i have space for another bike? Not really.

A more succient way of summarizing the four previous qustions is: i feel ambivalent.

 

[BikeMike]

A more succient way of summarizing the four previous qustions is: i feel ambivalent.

The EVO, or cyclocross configuration, reduces overlap with my Diverge. All EVO sizes are currently out of stock.

Turbo Creo SL Expert EVO

What is it about gravel that's so appealing? Is it the break from hectic city streets and cars? Is it the audible crunch of rocks beneath your tires? Or...

www.specialized.com

I don't really want the extra weight from the dropper post. I would swap that out. I suppose the lower gearing compensates for the additional weight, more than any other reason.

 

[BikeMike]

The EVO, or cyclocross configuration, reduces overlap with my Diverge. All EVO sizes are currently out of stock.

Turbo Creo SL Expert EVO

What is it about gravel that's so appealing? Is it the break from hectic city streets and cars? Is it the audible crunch of rocks beneath your tires? Or...

www.specialized.com

I don't really want the extra weight from the dropper post. I would swap that out. I suppose the lower gearing compensates for the additional weight, more than any other reason.

A rack to carry camping gear would further differentiate from my Diverge. The bike starts getting heavy and less responsive with a rack. The balance is changed, too.

 

[BikeMike]

Here's a Venn diagram to illustrate the Creo EVO (cyclocross model) for light backpacking.

Substitute the ABC variables that are most important to you.

A - Unpowered Characteristics

1. Weight
2. Gearing
3. Decoupled motor resistance

B - Powered Characteristics

1. Battery Range: 30, 60 mile radius @ 22mph
2. Maximum speed, 28mph

C - Ride Characteristics

1. Aerodynamics
2. Bike geometry
3. Tire pressure, maximum tire width
4. Rack carrying capacity

S - stands for Symmetry, which means equally balanced, or a 1:1:1 ratio.

The harder part is naming the subsets:

1. AB - High Performance
2. SB - eBike-orientated
3. BC - Elegant
4. SC - Ride-orientated
5. AC - Backpacking
6. SA - Road Cyclist-orientated

The Creo EVO with a rack starts making sense in my situation. I would use the bike for light camping -- bikepacking.

 

[BikeMike]

The reason for the single chain ring is to allow for larger tire width, i.e., 38mm on the EVO model. The double chainring derailleur standard limits tire width.

The compromises in the Creo line were probably to favor the EVO model.

The Shimano GRX groupset is specifically for gravel bikes. My guess is many design constraints are due to the GRX groupset.

I believe this bike was designed for occasional 28mph use. The 28mph classification is good for marketing, but it doesn't make a great deal of cycling sense to me.

 

[BikeMike]

Based on my experience with my mechanical Diverge, i am willing to bet the designers have two motor performance profiles: over and under 20mph.

The mechanical bike benefits most from a boost under 20mph. I am pretty sure gravel riders benefit more than road riders. Gravel speed probably matches the under 20mph better than over 20mph.

Anyhow, that is my expectation for the bike. I can expect a substantial improvement for the under 20mph profile. I doubt the motor makes any significant improvement over 20mph.

 

[StmbtDave]

I suppose the lower gearing compensates for the additional weight, more than any other reason.

Lower gearing than what? I believe all the models and styles of the Creo run the same gearing.

 

[StmbtDave]

The reason for the single chain ring is to allow for larger tire width, i.e., 38mm on the EVO model. The double chainring derailleur standard limits tire width.

The compromises in the Creo line were probably to favor the EVO model.

The Shimano GRX groupset is specifically for gravel bikes. My guess is many design constraints are due to the GRX groupset.

I believe this bike was designed for occasional 28mph use. The 28mph classification is good for marketing, but it doesn't make a great deal of cycling sense to me.

I don’t see how the front derailleur would limit tire size. Prior discussions seemed to think the single chainring was a result of the large Q-Factor. Adding a second chainring would create problems in the chain alignment.

At least in the Comp line both the road and EVO models use the GRX groupset. It may have been designed for gravel bikes but it works extremely well on the road model.

I’m not sure I understand your last statement. Are you saying Specialized is marketing the Creo as a constant 28 mph bike? Being that both Class 1 and Class 3 Ebikes are pedal assist, their speed is totally dependent on the riders effort. The Class 2 Ebikes with their throttles can maintain any speed, up to their designed motor cutout, with no rider effort. I expect an extremely fit rider can maintain 28 mph fairly easily on a Creo while the rest of us mortals only hit that speed occasionally.

 

[Captain Slow]

As a Creo owner if you buy a Creo I'd suggest a non-Evo model. The differences between the two are 38 mm tires instead of 28 mm, the dropper post you said you'd get rid of, and flared handlebars. Other than that they're the same.

But reading what you want I'd suggest you get the Domane+ HP, that sounds like it will deliver the speed you want. Plus it can be had with a dual battery configuration for high speed for longer distances.

I've found the Creo great, but I'm not going anywhere near a 27-28 mph average, not even close and I don't have a desire to either.

 

[BikeMike]

Lower gearing than what? I believe all the models and styles of the Creo run the same gearing.

I would buy a different cassette. As far as I can tell, the different rear derailleurs have different options. It depends upon the shifter. Its quite detailed. I have had the time to list all the options, yet. It's certainly not a situation i want to make a mistake about.