Not buying Specialized ebikes again.

[Stefan Mikes]

Well if I weigh 180 lbs. and the bike weighs 60 lbs and I want to climb a 50 foot hill with a 8% grade, the amount of "work" to be done is the same regardless of the bike. Assuming my riding adds the same power on two bikes, a bike with 50Nm torque motor is going to be pushed much closer to it's maximum capacity than a bike with an 85Nm torque motor. Motors that spend more of their life running at close to their maximum capacity wear out faster. I'll assume we can agree on that.

@mschwett has explained the phenomenon very well.

The low power motor would only be used at its higher capacity compared to the full power one if you attempted riding both e-bikes at the same speed, which usually is not the case. Motor noise is not about how ‘hard’ the motor is working; it is about how the internal motor gearing is designed. The SL 1.1 motor produces the whine both at high and low assistance, and the whine becomes louder at high pedalling cadence.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I've thought about other bikes as well. Choosing a different format for me would be daunting...

My 25-year hiatus from cycling doesn't help. So many things have changed — in me and in bike technology. And with this much money at stake, that means lots of testing.

Neck's too stiff and low back's too finicky for the Creo's drop bars now. And short of an extended test, not at all sure that a Creo 2 or Vado SL is really powerful enough to get me up the area's steeper hills. (Probably in better shape than many 76 year-olds, but an SL on a 10% grade?)

Problem is, thorough test rides aren't easy to come by on ebikes like these.

 

[gromike]

I hear you on the drop bars, but I can still ride on the hoods.
I should try riding some of those quality production ebikes too, but I'm into the build your own thing. That really only works with a lot of knowledge (which you have) and a bunch of quality bikes and parts (older good quality bikes have very little monetary value). Then it all depends on the motors and controllers available and batteries that you can make or buy. There is no economic reason to build your own ebike, but with trial and error you can build a great ebike that fits your personal needs.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I hear you on the drop bars, but I can still ride on the hoods.
I should try riding some of those quality production ebikes too, but I'm into the build your own thing. That really only works with a lot of knowledge (which you have) and a bunch of quality bikes and parts (older good quality bikes have very little monetary value). Then it all depends on the motors and controllers available and batteries that you can make or buy. There is no economic reason to build your own ebike, but with trial and error you can build a great ebike that fits your personal needs.

Very much admire those DIY skills. I'd be starting from scratch on the electrical stuff, and bike tech has moved a long way from the mechanical stuff I used to know.

My neck might be able to survive riding on the hoods, but they feel way to close together now. Much prefer wider bars these days.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

And short of an extended test, not at all sure that a Creo 2 or Vado SL is really powerful enough to get me up the area's steeper hills. (Probably in better shape than many 76 year-olds, but an SL on a 10% grade?)

I can only hope the 1.2 Vado SL will eventually be made. I could successfully ride the 1.1 Vado SL up a 10% climb but I admit it was a relatively short incline. The SL 1.2 motor is 50% stronger than the 1.1, and it is always doable to go with a smaller chainring (I currently use a 32T chainring, which is an overkill)

My friend (age 75 in the photo) climbing that 10% incline on a traditional bike. (1 mile climb).

 

[PDoz]

My 25-year hiatus from cycling doesn't help. So many things have changed — in me and in bike technology. And with this much money at stake, that means lots of testing.

Neck's too stiff and low back's too finicky for the Creo's drop bars now. And short of an extended test, not at all sure that a Creo 2 or Vado SL is really powerful enough to get me up the area's steeper hills. (Probably in better shape than many 76 year-olds, but an SL on a 10% grade?)

Problem is, thorough test rides aren't easy to come by on ebikes like these.

Try setting your current bike to produce similar output to the SL and see what you think. I've been surprised at how much support I get from my (1.1) levo sl. They claim it doubles your power, but so long as I keep cadence up above 70 I can almost ghost pedal and keep up with unassisted riders on regular bikes. The times I'm wanting more power are when most unassisted riders are pushing , and I'm NOT super fit

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Try setting your current bike to produce similar output to the SL and see what you think. I've been surprised at how much support I get from my (1.1) levo sl. They claim it doubles your power, but so long as I keep cadence up above 70 I can almost ghost pedal and keep up with unassisted riders on regular bikes. The times I'm wanting more power are when most unassisted riders are pushing , and I'm NOT super fit

Good idea but not sure how to match the Vado SL's assist on my 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive commuter.

I ride most hills here — say, 6% grade or less — in lowest assist (level 1 of 9). That's considerably lower than 1/5 on my friend's Level.2. Had to lower the gearing to SL-like ratios to make that work at knee-friendly cadences (70-90 RPM), but I don't mind slow.

All that's encouraging for the Vado SL option, but 10-15% grades aren't uncommon here, and those have me worried. The SL's 25-30 lbs lighter, and I know its mid-drive 1.1 is a more efficient climber. But I need 7/9 to get up some of those steep hills on the hub-drive.

The only way to know for sure is to test an SL on lots of known hills and see how I hold up. That will involve an expensive rental — if there's even one to rent around here. Specialized doesn't count rentals toward purchases here.

 

[Nubnub]

Good idea but not sure how to match the Vado SL's assist on my 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive commuter.

I ride most hills here — say, 6% grade or less — in lowest assist (level 1 of 9). That's considerably lower than 1/5 on my friend's Level.2. Had to lower the gearing to SL-like ratios to make that work at knee-friendly cadences (70-90 RPM), but I don't mind slow.

All that's encouraging for the Vado SL option, but 10-15% grades aren't uncommon here, and those have me worried. The SL's 25-30 lbs lighter, and I know its mid-drive 1.1 is a more effecient climber. But I need 7/9 to get up some of those steep hills on the hub-drive.

The only way to know for sure is to test an SL on lots of known hills and see how I hold up. That will involve an expensive rental — if there's even one to rent around here. Specialized doesn't count rentals toward purchases here.

I suspect you would be ok with either the Vado SL or Creo 2 SL. Note that the Vado 4.0 has an 11-42 Cassette while the 5.0 and Creo have a 50 tooth low. There is a short hill nearby that has a couple of 12-14% sections on it. I could handle it on my 4.0 Vado SL with an 11-36 casette as well as my Creo 2 with its 11-50 cassette. With the Creo's 1.2 motor the 50 tooth and/or turbo is overkill.

As for flat bar Creo 2, it is not that difficult to convert to flat bar on the Comp. The AXS shifter means 1 less cable to worry about. Just need a flat bar, grips, brake levers and an AXSS shift pod. Parts should be around $500 (including brake oil) with the levers/pod being the expensive parts. I've got a few months in on my conversion now and it is an upgrade over the Vado 4.0 EQ I had - mostly because the 1.2 motor that still isn't available on the Vado SL.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I suspect you would be ok with either the Vado SL or Creo 2 SL. Note that the Vado 4.0 has an 11-42 Cassette while the 5.0 and Creo have a 50 tooth low. There is a short hill nearby that has a couple of 12-14% sections on it. I could handle it on my 4.0 Vado SL with an 11-36 casette as well as my Creo 2 with its 11-50 cassette. With the Creo's 1.2 motor the 50 tooth and/or turbo is overkill.

The spec of the current Vado SL 5.0 EQ that @Jeremy McCreary has took for a long test is actually this one.

As for flat bar Creo 2, it is not that difficult to convert to flat bar on the Comp. The AXS shifter means 1 less cable to worry about. Just need a flat bar, grips, brake levers and an AXSS shift pod. Parts should be around $500 (including brake oil) with the levers/pod being the expensive parts. I've got a few months in on my conversion now and it is an upgrade over the Vado 4.0 EQ I had - mostly because the 1.2 motor that still isn't available on the Vado SL.

Did you ever care about the bike geometry? Probably not but my experience is a flat bar and a drop bar bike geometries for the same purpose bike are quite different. That's why I gave up my past idea to "Creoize" my Vado SL

 

[Stefan Mikes]

bomb

Yes, I can see it. Do you carry a fire-extinguisher, too?

 

[Zekeer]

Here’s the soundtrack of the squeal that I was referring to. It was clearly noticeable anytime that I was pedaling without assistance which was often.

I suspect that simply replacing the motor rather than tearing it down and rebuilding it was Specialized’s way of avoiding any further delay to the customer.

I don't mean to offend you but it just a pedal bike with a motor. People tend to think they are some big complicated monster. I would think any competent mechanic could fix it with a new belt . I check if belts are sold for it and found they were. So it must be a common issue that requires maintenance. I'm not familiar with this Bike but I have worked on Bikes as a shop mech for almost 50 years. It sounds like the belt is getting noisy . Probably wearing out on the edges like a car's belt does. If you are riding it with the motor off more often then not . You are putting more force on those belts. If you have tools to get the crank off it's a real simple fix.

 

[Prairie Dog]

I don't mean to offend you but it just a pedal bike with a motor. People tend to think they are some big complicated monster. I would think any competent mechanic could fix it with a new belt . I check if belts are sold for it and found they were. So it must be a common issue that requires maintenance. I'm not familiar with this Bike but I have worked on Bikes as a shop mech for almost 50 years. It sounds like the belt is getting noisy . Probably wearing out on the edges like a car's belt does. If you are riding it with the motor off more often then not . You are putting more force on those belts. If you have tools to get the crank off it's a real simple fix.

No offense taken. The bike was still warrantied so why bother when I can have a shop diagnose the issue. If they said it was just a matter of replacing the belt, then I’m sure they would have done so. I can’t say why they decided to just go ahead and replace the motor other than getting the green light from Specialized.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It sounds like the belt is getting noisy .

What belt?

I can’t say why they decided to just go ahead and replace the motor other than getting the green light from Specialized.

A corporation does not repair things nowadays; it replaces the things.

Get a car, let's say the engine compressor failed. An independent car mechanic can "regenerate" the compressor for reasonable money. The authorised service will replace the compressor, which could be seven times as expensive! The point is, an independent bike mechanic or a DIYer cannot repair such a thing as an SL 1.1 motor.

Specialized charges good money for its gear but rewards it with a premium warranty (I took big benefits from that warranty myself, so I know how it works).

 

[SAZZZ]

Still working out the trade-offs, as nothing's quite right. Getting the necessary tests done is really slowing things down.

Have a soft spot for Specialized from my MTB youth, and offerings of interest from other manufacturers either cost too much or leave even more boxes unchecked. I also like the staff at Specialized Carlsbad.

Watching too much Tour de France started this mess. It left me craving a light, responsive ebike as unlike my 61 lb hub-drive commuter as possible. And that rules out a non-SL Vado.

The fantasy is a flat-bar Creo 2 Comp. Of course, no such thing. And bar conversion with comparable components would put the final cost out of reach.

Will have to see what the Specialized fall lineup brings. My dealer thinks the Creo's 1.2 motor could turn up in a Vado SL. That might do the trick. Fingers and toes crossed!

Had 12 specialized bikes - got totally frustrated this past spring/summer and just purchased a Santa Cruz Skitch. Love it!

 

[Prairie Dog]

What belt?

You’re absolutely right Stefan. I must have been thinking of the Brose powerplant in my Levo at the time which does have a more robust reinforced belt than the previous gen.

 

[BlackHand]

Oh boy. Now Specialized will have to do a massive recall of all the SL motors so they can install the belts that were left out at the factory!

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Had 12 specialized bikes - got totally frustrated this past spring/summer and just purchased a Santa Cruz Skitch. Love it!

Ha, now you tell me! Just ordered a Specialized through the local Specialized-only shop.

They've been very helpful so far, seem knowledgeable, and answered a zillion questions with a smile. Plus they're only 10 minutes from home.

But obviously we're still in the honeymoon phase. We'll see what happens when something goes wrong. Fingers crossed!

 

[Zekeer]

What belt?


A corporation does not repair things nowadays; it replaces the things.

Get a car, let's say the engine compressor failed. An independent car mechanic can "regenerate" the compressor for reasonable money. The authorised service will replace the compressor, which could be seven times as expensive! The point is, an independent bike mechanic or a DIYer cannot repair such a thing as an SL 1.1 motor.

Specialized charges good money for its gear but rewards it with a premium warranty (I took big benefits from that warranty myself, so I know how it works).

I said I wasn't familiar with this particular Bike. Thinking about it It's likely whatever he's cleaning it with has caused the crank seals to squeak. If the engine is gear driven wouldn't it grind if there was an issue? My main point is that it's a pedal bike. If it's not covered under warranty tear it apart. It's not that complicated . Likely there's video on Y-tube showing how

 

[Prairie Dog]

I said I wasn't familiar with this particular Bike. Thinking about it It's likely whatever he's cleaning it with has caused the crank seals to squeak. If the engine is gear driven wouldn't it grind if there was an issue? My main point is that it's a pedal bike. If it's not covered under warranty tear it apart. It's not that complicated . Likely there's video on Y-tube showing how

Cleaning it with what? Pure speculation. I don’t even wash the bike with a pressure hose. Like I said, in my specific case why would I even bother taking the motor apart when it was covered under warranty.

 

[rochrunner]

Without knowing specifically what's in the SL motor, it's likely that the gear noise we hear is due to having straight-cut gear teeth instead of quieter (and more expensive!) helical-cut gears. If anybody here remembers manual transmissions on cars , they use helical gears except for the less used reverse gears, and you might recall that they made a whining noise when backing up. Also, doesn't the regular Vado use an internal toothed belt instead of gears to get the required reduction without the noise?