Newb, debating ebike options for hills, trails

[retiredNH]

Geez, are you ever going to get tired of making that comment?

If you don't NEED a throttle, do you NEED a motor? No, we don't NEED a throttle, but most that have them will tell you they're a darn nice feature, just as the motor is.....

Would you, on your non throttle equipped bike, like to race me and my throttle equipped bike to see who can get to the far side of a busy road first?

We're all human, and as such likely to screw up on a ride resulting in getting a little banged up sooner or later. If/when this were to happen to you 5 miles from home or back to the staging area you launched from, would you rather make that ride on a non throttle, or throttle equipped bike?

Are you having fun launching from a stop going up hill?

Only dumbs*its willingly stop going up a hill. The few times I've had to do it in an emergency (a few times a year...) my mid drive w/o throttle did fine helping me get started. I just dial in assist to match the steepness.

I've avoided the throttle controversy because of the level of vitriol you and a few others, folks who can't imagine a bike without a throttle, throw at those of us who CAN do without. But enough is enough. Some folks, in some situations may need a throttle, but most of us don't. And wanting a throttle eliminates a lot of very good bikes from consideration.

 

[AHicks]

Only dumbs*its willingly stop going up a hill. The few times I've had to do it in an emergency (a few times a year...) my mid drive w/o throttle did fine helping me get started. I just dial in assist to match the steepness.

I've avoided the throttle controversy because of the level of vitriol you and a few others, folks who can't imagine a bike without a throttle, throw at those of us who CAN do without. But enough is enough. Some folks, in some situations may need a throttle, but most of us don't. And wanting a throttle eliminates a lot of very good bikes from consideration.

This dumb sh#t runs into up hill stops regularly when riding in a hilly area. Much preferred to getting run over....

Welcome to the controversy! You do make a good point about loosing some choices (I'll give you that willingly!), but as those choices almost always use proprietary parts, and I prefer to do my own work exclusivly, without having to screw with a shop, they were not in the running for me anyway.

I doubt you'll ever hear me say you MUST have a throttle. I'd much rather see you out riding something without a throttle than see you sitting on the couch. I do realize some will always choose to have a shop do their bike work too. I get that. Doesn't make them outlaws or anything. When I go off on my throttles are great tangent, I'm really intending to speak to those that have more of a choice in the matter, where throttles ARE an option.

You don't NEED an automatic transmission or power windows in a car either, but you seldom see one without. Early on, when those devices were first introduced, I'm sure there were some hard cores that swore off them too....

I had to look up "vitriol". I don't see my throttle comments as "cruel" at all. They are meant to expose people to the option, and supply counter points when comments regarding "throttles aren't necessary" are made.

In the end, I don't care which option you go with, as long as you made the choice fully informed, with no BS involved.... -Al

 

[pxpaulx]

Just shy of 8 years on this forum, been awhile since I've posted but hopped back on because I ordered a new bike.

It warms my heart to see the same old arguments about throttles, hahaha.

My take? I don't much care for them - 3 of the 11 bikes that have gone through my garage were throttle (first bike, a BH Easy Motion, as well as the very first batch of radrover via indiegogo and an e-joe folding bike). With the explosion of e-bike use everywhere, I feel in retrospect that the class 1/2/3 specifications are/were a really good compromise for everyone - the only issue is that local/state government is severely lagging behind on both direction and enforcement.

I really don't have any issue with throttled bikes, however with more and more users out I do think using the throttle on trails is in poor taste more than anything. At the end of the day though, as long as everyone is being respectful and following typical trail etiquette I just don't care that much.

 

[retiredNH]

This dumb sh#t runs into up hill stops regularly when riding in a hilly area. Much preferred to getting run over....

Welcome to the controversy! You do make a good point about loosing some choices (I'll give you that willingly!), but as those choices almost always use proprietary parts, and I prefer to do my own work exclusivly, without having to screw with a shop, they were not in the running for me anyway.

I doubt you'll ever hear me say you MUST have a throttle. I'd much rather see you out riding something without a throttle than see you sitting on the couch. I do realize some will always choose to have a shop do their bike work too. I get that. Doesn't make them outlaws or anything. When I go off on my throttles are great tangent, I'm really intending to speak to those that have more of a choice in the matter, where throttles ARE an option.

You don't NEED an automatic transmission or power windows in a car either, but you seldom see one without. Early on, when those devices were first introduced, I'm sure there were some hard cores that swore off them too....

I had to look up "vitriol". I don't see my throttle comments as "cruel" at all. They are meant to expose people to the option, and supply counter points when comments regarding "throttles aren't necessary" are made.

In the end, I don't care which option you go with, as long as you made the choice fully informed, with no BS involved.... -Al

Now this is a good reply. Let's just add that some folks may need a throttle for fitness, medical or health reasons, but they should be aware of the compromises, mostly in bike choice and LBS support. While I'm at it, do you know which throttle ebikes are sold and supported by LBS? That might be a useful addition to the discussion?

 

[m@Robertson]

While I'm at it, do you know which throttle ebikes are sold and supported by LBS? That might be a useful addition to the discussion?

Locally here, the LBS' that support ebikes at all are brand-agnostic. It used to be one shop only in the whole Fresno metro area. Then as they prospered while others waned, the attitudes changed. Now I can go and get BBSHD/BBS02 service locally. The driver, it seems, was local singletrack riders based on the mud-caked bikes I have seen in the service area. This is something that has to be determined rider by rider as I am sure all areas are different, but as ebikes become commonplace in the USA you can expect the trend to go in only one direction.

Add me to the list of riders who need a throttle for going up a steep hill after a stop. Streets in hills have stop lights, right? Its a common need in the cargo bike community where the whole throttle argument is now largely dead (this wasn't always the case). I can do without it if I must but life sucks for about 40 feet. Especially given the balance issues that go with a loaded bike and zero momentum. This is part of why I went back to 2wd when I built the Bullitt. That one is stable after maybe 5 feet.

 

[Rexlion]

Just my opinion but I think anything you buy and convert to a e bike is going to be a disappointment unless you really know what your doing. The pic you show of a trail looks like mountain bike territory to me. I’d budget at least $5000 if you want to get serious.

How bad do you want to ride trails? For example I own a Trek Verve +3. I will ride on gravel some, no more than a mile or two but would never ride trails unless they are smooth and dry. Cost was $3200. Range is 30 to 70 miles depending on assist level and conditions. Lots of choices out there in mountain bikes, it’s a matter of what you want to spend and the quality you want.

You make a good point with your question. I ask myself that. How badly do I want to ride trails? Personally, it isn't about the trail riding so much as the scenery and the exploring: seeing what's along and at the end of the trail. I'd prefer that every trail be smooth and easy! Every once in a while in my travels to national and state parks and forests, BLM land, etc, I might be near a trail that sounds like fun and want to travel it. That's how I wound up on the Alpine Tunnel trail in the photo: camping in Buena Vista and looking for interesting things to do in the area. A trail that leads to an old RR tunnel sounded cool, and 5.5 miles round trip was a distance I'd rather traverse on 2 wheels than on foot, so off I went. Only, in hindsight the trail turned out to be quite rough in several spots (maybe 1/5 of it was uneven like this, but most of it was reasonably smooth dirt/gravel). Hindsight is always 20/10 though; looking back, the views along the trail were nice, but the tunnel mouth had caved in long ago so there was nothing worth seeing at the end of the trail.

I guess I'd be on much easier surfaces 95% of the time or more. So I have to decide whether 'being fully prepared to handle the other 4-5%' is worth the extra money, the extra bike weight, etc. I guess it probably isn't. If I see something like this in the future, I have to ask myself: is it time to turn around, or do I accept the potential risks and consequences of traversing this terrain with the equipment I have?

 

[m@Robertson]

@Rexlion I should have read thru your entire post and actually tried to answer your question.

@dodgeman is right, and what you are saying in Post #1 and here says you pretty much already know where you need to head on this: Full suspension mid drive, small front chainring, large rear cluster. What you want to do is supplemented by the 'e' in ebike, but the bike needs to be able to handle things on its own, and if you are an explorer you won't know what you are in for until its behind you, so you have to overbuild. Think of how life would have sucked if that rigid front fork had snapped, or those rims had folded up in that low-intensity rock garden just ahead of you in that picture.

Or just turn around and fuggedaboudit. You've reached an age where you know life is short and a missed opportunity has costs. I'd do the mountain bike. Ebay is a great place to get started. I just saw an old Specialized Demo 8 on sale for around $1300 delivered. That would take anything you can throw at it, but you have to put the motor in yourself.

There's another alternative: do a bike that is good for the city or just gravel and use that one where you know its going to stay sane. Then do a second bike that is good for the rough stuff. I finished one of those in April and immediately put it to use (ignore the smooth tires ).

You also asked about fat tires. Reality is that on modern bikes, tires are all bigger. They just don't seem to be given the existence of truly fat tires. Back in the day my Stumpjumper had 1.9" tires and those were considered to be balloons. The bike above (thats a model year 2000 frame) has 2.35" tires that just barely fit. My modern badass go-anywhere 29er can fit 2.6" tires and it is well served by them. 2.6" tires have a LOT more loft than 1.75's or similar like you probably have on your pictured bike.

You are probably right about the lighter weight, but probably wrong about the 50 lbs. Maybe not. And if you pick the right frame you can fit a battery on FS as you can see I did above. You just have to keep looking until you find the right candidate.

$2500 is going to be tough, but its do-able. A BBSHD kit is going to run you in the ballpark of $750. The battery will be around $500 if you buy the right one (USA made!). You can also do a backpack battery which is not the insane option so many say it is (its a sign they haven't tried it). I was one of those until I had to go there for a build.

Speaking of a backpack, this might open up your options on suitable frames. Also look at the How To Build an Ebike series where there are parts lists.

A Backpack Ebike Battery… Are You Insane?!?

If all I did was write internet posts, I’d still hate this idea. But circumstances made me try one. I knew almost immediately how wrong I had been.

talesontwowheels.com

 

[Rexlion]

Reading the above linked article, I had to chuckle over the "unexploded bomb on your back" part. No one seems to worry about having the "unexploded bombs" mounted between their legs!

 

[AHicks]

I bought a bike and even though it was a hard tail, I figured I could do some off roading with it. Lesson learned is I really don't do that much off roading, and I'm WAY further ahead using a hybrid set up for the 98% on road, but still capable of a little/limited off road when I can find a trail that's in decent condition.

I'm one of those that now turn around - after learning the hard way (my typical MO). At 71, I'd now much rather just continue on my way after turning around and find the NEXT trail that piques my interest - sooner than later (after healing from another fall).

As far as gearing, we just talked about this under a different topic. My takeaway was that what is going to be right for YOU and the area you're riding most frequently is nearly impossible to predict because of all the variables (LOTS of them!). I believe you're further ahead riding whatever you have for a bit so you can see what's going on, then adjust as necessary to optimize. -Al

 

[AHicks]

Now this is a good reply. Let's just add that some folks may need a throttle for fitness, medical or health reasons, but they should be aware of the compromises, mostly in bike choice and LBS support. While I'm at it, do you know which throttle ebikes are sold and supported by LBS? That might be a useful addition to the discussion?

Agree. I'll likely remain clueless on that info, as our local shops alienated me when I was still riding analog. There's one guy I trust, running a very small shop where an aloof manner is just not going to cut it. I even tried again when I first decided to try an e-bike, hitting several and asking questions. Incompetence and often total BS that I ran into proved my original opinion still held. Point being, I don't do bike shops. Don't have the required patience....

 

[Bobber]

I have a Specialized Crosstrail which is a lot like the OPs bike. I did the Bafang mid drive conversion myself. The bike now weighs 58 pounds including battery (12.5 pounds) and rack. These kits with all the goodies are about $1600 including the big battery. I can do about 36 mph and my longest trip was 74.8 miles. I vote for the OP to do the conversion himself and he'll have a nice go fast go far bike.

Edit: There was a post about ebikes being allowed in National Parks. All bikes are not allowed on trails in the NPs and the Wilderness Areas and never will be. Perhaps the poster was talking about road use?

 

[Rexlion]

I have a Specialized Crosstrail which is a lot like the OPs bike. I did the Bafang mid drive conversion myself. The bike now weighs 58 pounds including battery (12.5 pounds) and rack. These kits with all the goodies are about $1600 including the big battery. I can do about 36 mph and my longest trip was 74.8 miles. I vote for the OP to do the conversion himself and he'll have a nice go fast go far bike.

I haven't put this out of mind, although I'm sure I would take it to a local shop for the conversion. I've seen mid drive kits on Amazon (Tongsheng $459, or BBSHD $800) and a ~15Ah battery with LG or Samsung cells might run about $500. But I read somewhere (followed a link from this forum to another) a comment by Tomjasz that the Trek Pure's frame isn't the right shape to properly support a mid drive motor. Which would mean a geared hub motor instead.

 

[AHicks]

I haven't put this out of mind, although I'm sure I would take it to a local shop for the conversion. I've seen mid drive kits on Amazon (Tongsheng $459, or BBSHD $800) and a ~15Ah battery with LG or Samsung cells might run about $500. But I read somewhere (followed a link from this forum to another) a comment by Tomjasz that the Trek Pure's frame isn't the right shape to properly support a mid drive motor. Which would mean a geared hub motor instead.

My bet is, taking a conversion to a shop that's willing to undertake that work is going to result in a bill that would easily buy a production bike....

 

[WIVado]

Maybe try the used bike hardtail eMTB market for a 'name-brand' unit....Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

If you know how to shift a bicycle you don't need a throttle.

That is right.

Throttle-less 24,886 km (15,467 mi). (I'm 61 and have bad legs because of arteriosclerosis so I actually need a motor. And yes, I can shift).

If you don't NEED a throttle, do you NEED a motor? No, we don't NEED a throttle, but most that have them will tell you they're a darn nice feature, just as the motor is.....

That's a North American myth resulting from the flood of cheap & heavy Chinese e-bikes. Indeed, it is very hard to get a 4 or 5" fat tyre folder moving, especially if a person is used to the automatic transmission on their car, and actually cannot shift their e-bike properly.

Big brands (with focus on Europe) never use throttles for their e-bikes.

 

[Rexlion]

I'm not sure what they'll charge for a mid drive conversion (wish I'd asked specifically about that), but one local shop told me $250 labor to convert a bike to hub drive. My parts or their parts.

 

[Bobber]

A hub drive conversion is really easy, you can do that yourself. A mid drive is more complicated and you will need some special tools (like a crank puller) that are affordable. But an average Joe can do it in a few hours. Lots of vids out there on both which makes it easy.

 

[AHicks]

That is right.

View attachment 130389
Throttle-less 24,886 km (15,467 mi). (I'm 61 and have bad legs because of arteriosclerosis so I actually need a motor. And yes, I can shift).


That's a North American myth resulting from the flood of cheap & heavy Chinese e-bikes. Indeed, it is very hard to get a 4 or 5" fat tyre folder moving, especially if a person is used to the automatic transmission on their car, and actually cannot shift their e-bike properly.

Big brands (with focus on Europe) never use throttles for their e-bikes.

OK, so you know how to ride a bike without a throttle, so what? Nobody is saying you HAVE to have a throttle, just like nobody is saying your car doesn't HAVE to have an automatic transmission. They're a FEATURE, get it? I happen to believe they're a very desirable FEATURE, just like an automatic transmission in a car might be. Maybe you should buy a car with a standard transmission and start bragging about how far you're driving that? That automatic transmissions are a feature the world can live without? See how well that flies....

OK, so throttles are illegal in Europe, so what? Does that mean riders in the rest of the world shouldn't be able use them as well in sympathy for the poor abused Europeans? WHERE'S THE LOGIC?

 

[Rexlion]

Anyone who has ever enjoyed coasting on a significant downhill stretch should be able to appreciate the advantage of occasional throttle use, IMO.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Hi, I'm a guy in his mid-60s thinking about buying an ebike or getting a used mountain bike that can be converted. I am getting to the age where I hope to soon have a lot more time to goof off! I like to travel with a trailer and camp, especially on national forest/blm land, and I always take my Trek Pure Sport (love the upright seat position and crank-forward design). I often pedal the gravel roads and such, but in the future I would like to be able to explore more of the steep, rough trails like this:
View attachment 129673
This was the trail to Alpine Tunnel (east side) near St. Elmo, CO. Call me a fool; I had no idea what I was getting into. Somehow the bike and I survived the beating, although I had to stop a half dozen times for rest and sometimes walk the bike over the roughest sections. I'd like to be able to ride trails like this with an ebike, and I'm thinking I need at least a front suspension (full would be nice).

I would welcome advice on what to get. From the reading I've done, it seems like maybe a mid-drive motor with a small-ish crank would be best? Would a folding ebike be a big mistake for rough terrain due to lack of frame strength? I get the impression that I shouldn't get wheels smaller than 26" (I'm only 5'8" though, so huge bikes are out). I can see some advantage to fat tires, but it seems like the good quality mountain bikes don't have them; why is that? I'm thinking that buying a used front-suspension MTB (I've seen some used Treks go for $150-$500) and getting it converted would result in a lighter weight bike, maybe 50 lb, versus most of the reasonably priced ready-made bikes running 65-90 lb, am I right? Today I spotted a preowned, pristine dual-suspension Gary Fisher Sugar 3 for less than $600, but would there be room on that bike to mount the battery? There is a shop in town that will do conversions for a reasonable labor charge, but the guy I talked to in that shop said dual suspension bikes don't have enough room for a battery (btw they can install a Bafang mid drive but I can tell they really are Bosch fans). I have to mind my pennies so I'm trying to keep total cost under $2500, but at the same time I don't want to buy a crap battery or motor, either.

My goal is to have a nice ebike by late next spring, because summertime is when I have the most free time and can head to the Rockies. Ahhh, the smell of pine trees and the (relative) coolness of the higher elevations (it's been 108* here)!

Welcome! That picture reminds me that the weapon needed is either a high quality, mid-drive dual suspension fatbike or a 29 inch, near 3 inch wide tired dual suspension e-mtb. But even with that, you will still be getting of it and walking through some tricky areas. Tire pressures will also requiring adjusting as well, to meet the current road conditions and for that, you will need to carry a good, high volume air pump and guage. Recommendations? For a good dual suspension, mid drive fat bike, the US market basically had just two, the Bulls Monster FS with Bosch mid drive and the Haibike Full FatSix with Yamaha mid drive power. The Bulls left the US market after but a few years but the H-Bike went on until the past year. A shame as they had refined the Yamaha drive, using the latest PW-X2 motor. External battery, 500wh. I can tell you with my 2017 H-Bike Full FatSix, using the High power setting, I get a consistent 40 miles on a charge at close to water-level riding. The rear gearing cluster on those later H-Bikes beat mine for hill climbing ability, what with my 11 X 36 factory set up. H-Bike also featured Bosch mid drive in their FatSix hard tail line up; along with the Yamaha PW. You can find both the hard tail and the dual suspension H-Bikes for sale, used on either Ebay, craigslist or Facebook marketplace. With my long experience on my FFS, I personally would not hesitate buying a used H-Bike, provided I inspected the bike for the usual dings and dents, with an emphasis on looking at the suspension frame link points for any cracking, indicative of a person who caught air, jumping their ebike. To that, I'd walk away. Become acquainted with checking the battery capacity on the Yamaha; that is found on this site or in the Yamaha X94 Service Manual. I see a good number of these fat ebikes by H-Bike come up for sale with hardly any miles on their odometer, so that should be another consideration for you to ponder over. Couple pics of a short venture I made a few years back on my FFS, going north on the semi-abandoned Camden and Amboy rail line, at Bordentown, NJ. Pretty much road the bike in the middle of the "railroad guage" as often, there was no riding space outside the tracks. Good luck and let everyone know what you end up with!

Former Camden & Amboy railroad, atop the crossing of the Crosswicks Creek, Hamilton Twp, NJ, November 2017. At this point, I am some 9 months into ownership of this Haibike.

As you found on your own rail-trail ride, there is a sense of adventure that comes about when riding these abandoned lines. You just have to see just what is around that next bend, all the while, trying to imagine what it was like when the rail line we are riding on, was an active one.....