New Yamaha Gravel Bike
- Thread starter Nova Haibike
- Start date
So with motorized assist I guess I struggle to understand why anyone would want to ride a bike in an aggressive position like a gravel bike or road bike requires. There is information on how these riding positions (while required if you want to be a competitive racer as you must be as aero as possible) are not even good for balanced body exercise. Ever noticed how mtn bikers have more balance physiques than road bike racers....there upper bodies are more involved in riding and that's a good thing for 99% of us on ebikes as we still want to get some exercise.
Maybe if you just love to slip into spandex and pretend to be racing in the Tour de France it may make sense but I would not buy an ebike that is anything but more upright and comfortable. To each his own as I'm sure I'll be hammered by the spandexters for not openly embracing a road / gravel bike configuration.
Maybe if you just love to slip into spandex and pretend to be racing in the Tour de France it may make sense but I would not buy an ebike that is anything but more upright and comfortable. To each his own as I'm sure I'll be hammered by the spandexters for not openly embracing a road / gravel bike configuration.
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
When I started in the sport in the late 70's, there was no such thing as a mountain bike. Road bikes were what you rode if you were serious. When I got my e-bike with straight bars, I hated it because there is only one position on the bike. With a road bike's handlebars, you can shift your weight around, which is helpful on longer rides. You can get in an aerodynamic tuck for efficiency or to minimize a headwind, or sit up a bit more for riding in traffic or to just relieve different muscles.
Source?
No.
I guarantee that most people who are sitting bolt-straight-up are using less muscles than road riders.
I would love to have an e-bike like the Wabash; it makes perfect sense to me, if not you. As you say, to each his own.
I'll see if I can find the source document again but I did copy the information on health benefits for both road and mtn bikes and it makes sense once you read it:
As I see it, road cycling is more strenuous than MTB. MTB riders change their body position more often, and there are changes in the distribution of weight, the position of large joints and the engagement of muscles. Considering the overall impact on the skeleton and muscles, this is better for the body than the aerodynamic sitting posture and monotonous movement of road cycling. It is therefore important to mitigate the negative impacts of cycling by appropriate stretching of the overstrained muscle groups or by compensation exercise, which we’ll cover next time.
The biggest problem of road biking is that riders continuously bend forward because of aerodynamics. That’s why we often choose to sit low. Such posture makes us keep our shoulders in protraction, the thoracic spine and rib cage flatten and the ribs descend, narrowing the intercostal spaces. The organs of abdominal cavity are forced into the thoracic cavity and push the diaphragm up, which hinders breathing and changes the breathing stereotype. When on a road bike, the function of your upper body muscles is primarily to stabilize you with regard to the current movement of your legs. The lowered aerodynamic posture on a road bike makes you tilt your head back if you want to see properly. Long-term performance cycling then causes changes in the structure of the cervical spine. In the thoracic spine of adults, a very hunched sitting position can move the inner gel-like centre of intervertebral discs backwards. A typical consequence is spinal disc herniation – the slipped disc compresses nerve roots, causing pain. Road cycling flexes the trunk of your body. The paravertebral muscles must exert great force, and great pressure is put on the L5/S1 area.
Road biking is mainly about the kilometres, so everything depends on the legs, and the whole upper body is “locked”, with movement coming from the hip joints. The performance cycling movement in the sagittal plane strains the adductors, sitting on the saddle, however, is convenient for the hip joint, as it lightens the weight of the body. It’s perhaps thanks to this that the functional decentration doesn’t have serious consequences for the structure.
Just because you can go from the drop bar position to the top of the bars on a road bike doesn't really change the body position much on a road bike. I honestly don't think anyone can claim that riding a road bike is as comfortable as riding a beach cruiser why are we really seemingly debating this subject. I just think most ebike riders are better off in a more upright riding position - both from a safety consideration because it's far easier to see what's going on in front of you when you are sitting upright and it's more comfortable. The only reason for road bike geometry is aerodynamics and that is important only in racing or for spandexters that want to think they are racing. I think we know this to be true .... listen I owned and rode a road bike for years and then I got a more upright ebike with 2.4" Schwalbe Moto X tires and I could not believe I tortured myself on that road bike for that long.
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
So basically some guy's opinion.
Would it be comfortable to ride a beach cruiser for 100-200 kilometers? I've never seen anyone do that. Road bikes exist for a reason.
Perhaps most, but I don't want the kind of e-bike you want.
Is there something wrong with people wanting to imagine they are racing?
Even though I installed a multi-position flat bar on my Haibike, I still think about how much more comfortable I would be with drop bars.
You have plenty of upright e-bikes to choose from, far more choice than those who want a road e-bike. I don't understand what you're moaning about.
Nothing wrong with imagining you're racing. I think the pros have so much influence on what people buy which is what drives a lot of road bike sales.
For the vast majority of riders, I know it would be far more comfortable to ride 100 - 200 km on something like the Trek Super Commuter or Specialized Turbo Vado than on a drop bar gravel bike like this Yamaha (I'm not being critical of the Yamaha, I'm just saying something that I think a lot of riders need to hear to minimize the power the pros have on their purchasing decisions). The far great air volume tires alone make the ride quality far better (this is physics that you can't just ignore and say it's not true...it's a fact that tire air volume improve ride quality while impacting efficiency but who cares if you are on an ebike).
To many people ride their cruiser bikes with the seat in the Flintstone position that inefficient leg extension will make long rides inherently uncomfortable and inefficient but many of them don't even realize how inefficient that low seating position is.
If you want to get in different riding positions there are bar accessories for flat mtn bike bars that accomplish maybe the same thing you get from having drop bars on a road bike.
Nova Haibike
Well-Known Member
Again, is there a problem with that? Pro mountain bikers have an influence on what mountain bike riders use too. So what? People can buy whatever the heck they want.
I wouldn't be.
I have already said that I had mountain bike bars on my Haibike, and swapped them for a multi-postion bar. Is is still NOT the same as a drop bar, and I KNOW I would be more comfortable with a drop bar. I'm beating a dead horse, but you will never convince me that how you sit on your bike is how I should sit on mine.
ebikemom
Well-Known Member
My husband's bike has a clip on the handlebars that makes them instantly adjustable in all sorts of directions--higher, lower, more forward, more backward ...
I never thought about that for those curly handlebars. Interesting. I had a "10 speed" when they were popular in the early/mid 1970's, and had my handlebars flipped up, though often rode without using the handlebars at all. I guess I've always liked a more upright riding position.
Never meant to imply that anyone should buy anything but what they want. I'm just suggesting that what is best for a pro racer is rarely best for the typical rider. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't most racers be on recumbents if not restricted (I wonder if current road bike geometry is due to free market forces or the industry not allowing an innovation that dramatically shifts bike design). My guess is that if the pros were on recumbents you would not own any drop bars...they influence sales for sure.
Do the air volume calculation of a 2.4" wide tire vs a road bike tire under 1" wide. That's like an 8-10X increase in air volume. That alone will make for better ride quality for 99.9% of riders (now sure how many people like to feel every sidewalk crack and tar line while riding high pressure tiny road bike tires). While I have heard riders say they are comfortable on a road bike I have not heard them say it's more comfortable than say a more upright urban bike like the Trek Super Commuter.
While comfort is subjective....ride quality really isn't but it does impact comfort so wider tires should not be underestimated in their impact on comfort.
Do the air volume calculation of a 2.4" wide tire vs a road bike tire under 1" wide. That's like an 8-10X increase in air volume. That alone will make for better ride quality for 99.9% of riders (now sure how many people like to feel every sidewalk crack and tar line while riding high pressure tiny road bike tires). While I have heard riders say they are comfortable on a road bike I have not heard them say it's more comfortable than say a more upright urban bike like the Trek Super Commuter.
While comfort is subjective....ride quality really isn't but it does impact comfort so wider tires should not be underestimated in their impact on comfort.
roadandmtbebikes
Member
I don't know what country you live in but here in the states, the average adult male is 5'9" and 200 lbs with a 40 in. waist. The average female is 5'3" 171 lbs, with a 39" waist. Quite the contrast compared to the ideal 36/24/26! The average adult BMI is 29 and climbing (the average american is getting shorter and fatter over time), while a healthy BMI is 19 to 25. Americans are by CDC definition, extremely obese on average. That's half of all americans. Half.
From that perspective, a very upright riding position makes more sense. A rider with a 40"+ waistline is simply not going to be comfortable bending forward at the waist for any extended period of time. I know many adults who can't touch their toes. Some can't even SEE their toes.
We're just in a state right now where the majority of americans are so fat and inactive that a bicycle for athletic riding is inconceivable. What I see in your post is an inversion of the normal perspective. It's almost as if you are ridiculing fit, thin people and are posing obesity as the new norm. In fact, I'm certain of it. This is not a healthy perspective.
Sport and competitive road riding are popular in all corners of the world. There are enthusiast riders all over the world: East Asia, South Asia, North America, Northern Europe, the UK etc. There is definitely a market for sport/racing road bikes. A sport bike with assist is very helpful when climbing for example. Anyone who has ridden a giant road e for example, or a cannondale road ebike marvels at how quickly these bicycles climb.
I ride a road bike and the speed is awesome. I'm much faster on a road bike with drop bars than I am on a city bike with flat bars. Even with it's longish 165 mm head tube, I can get pretty aero in the compact drops.
All of which is to say: don't knock it till you try it. Road bike riding is a lot of fun. On certain sections I can drop radrovers trudging along on throttle with their top speed of 20 mph. Road bikes are very light, very aero, with very light wheels designed for speed, speed and more speed! They also handle more quickly. Not to mention the ease and pride of carrying a super light weight bike which can weigh under 14 lbs in the highest end configurations. It's even possible to build 10 lbs road bikes, rideable 10 lbs road bikes.
A bit about terminology: those "curly" bars are referred to as drop bars. The "clip ons" are probably clip on aero bars. Those were popularized by Greg Lemond who won the 1989 TdF (tour de france) using clip on aerobars for the first time in a TdF time trial. Lemond won the 1989 Tdf by a shockingly slim EIGHT SECONDS in a 2,000+ mile race! The most exciting finish in TdF history, that's for sure!
It's kinda sad to see the tradition and passion of road racing and sport riding disrespected in such a flippant fashion. As excited as I am about the growth of the ebike market, the sudden flood of riders with little to no knowledge of actual, non-motorized riding is quite sad. Ebike riders may not see much value in road bikes, but I say it is thrilling to see the fittest endurance athletes on the planet drop the hammer and average THIRTY FOUR FRIGGIN MILES PER HOUR under the power of their own legs, heart and lungs alone. See Lemond 1989. TdF. Guess which guy is Lemond (the winner). And guess which one is Laurent Fignon, runner up in 1989. Hint: the winner wears a yellow jersey.
https://rouleur.cc/editorial/lemond-tour-de-france/
A pro rider can put out a staggering 1,400 watts peak during sprints. Which dwarfs the pitiful 500-750 watt peak output of a typical e-bike. A pro rider can AVERAGE 450 watts for 45 minutes at a time. This is nearly DOUBLE the nominal output of a typical mid drive motor such as a class 1 bosch system.
The top road racers in summary are just as powerful over long stretches and far more powerful during sprints than the power output any class3 ebike can attain. Oh, and pro riders don't need to be plugged in after 20 miles.
So show some respect.
And as far as criticizing the efficiency or efficacy of road bike riding as a form of exercise compared to mountain biking or upright ebiking for lack of a better term, forget it. You might as well give up on bicycling altogether to pursue other forms of exercise. Road riding burns a lot more calories than riding an ebike. Second, bicycling in general is not a weight bearing form of exercise. Weight resistance or weight bearing exercise is required to build or even maintain bone strength and muscle mass, and cycling doesn't do that. In this regard, you need to walk, run, lift weights, do pullups, situps pushups, play basketball, ultimate frisbee or otherwise do something besides sit on your bum. And that's exactly what you are doing when you ride a bike. You sit. And you spin your legs really fast. Or slowly in some instances. Let's not pretend as if bicycling in any form is an ideal form of exercise. It builds endurance and promotes muscle tone but doesn't build bone strength or muscle mass (track cyclists being an exception). To the contrary, the most successful racers are unusually thin and excess muscle mass harms performance.
I'll add that your claim that mountain bike racers have more "balance" or symmetry to their physiques is baseless. As a matter of fact, many riders race both mountain and road bikes, and/or gravel bikes. There is a great deal of overlap. And in all instances, (track cycling being one exception), additional weight either in the form of fat or muscle detracts from a bicycle racer's performance.
Your attacks and criticisms of the sport of cycling are unwarranted and totally baseless.
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E-Wheels
Well-Known Member
This video is pretty impressive
Eeeww! Those legs look weird. Steroids anyone?!!
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
It seems to be nothing much more than a rehash of their Cross Core and Cross Connect models, with a new color scheme, hydraulic brakes, trail tires and drop handlebars. Yamaha seems to have gone with an ultra-conservative bicycle lineup all around while the greater majority of us were thinking something a bit more daring along the lines of what Haibike has done in their lineup. But hey, if it attracts a niche segment rider who likes his or her gravel bikes, all is good. The reviews Court along with Sam have been doing of the Yamaha lineup show great value for the dollar in these bikes and I look forward to their review of this new model. As a Haibike Yamaha drive ebike owner, I share Sam's enthusiasm for the Yamaha ebike drive...
But now, onto the disclaimer: Hey Yamaha! When can we expect to see your fatbike version of the Haibike Full FatSix? I mean, your overlords in Japan there at Yamaha world headquarters defined the fat tired dual sport motorcycle in the Yamaha TW200....about time you give us the Ebike version!
But now, onto the disclaimer: Hey Yamaha! When can we expect to see your fatbike version of the Haibike Full FatSix? I mean, your overlords in Japan there at Yamaha world headquarters defined the fat tired dual sport motorcycle in the Yamaha TW200....about time you give us the Ebike version!
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Ravi Kempaiah
Well-Known Member
- Region
- Canada
- City
- Halifax
A significant % of the E-bike riders are over 50, have never ridden a bike in over 20 or 30 years. For them, it would be quite hard to think of drop bar bikes being comfortable. Upright bikes are the way to go for them.
Riders who have been using their bikes regularly, will find Trek CrossRip+ to be as comfortable as the Trek super commuter.
Distributing ones weight over arms, waist, and leg makes it easier to transfer power and be comfortable.
Riders who have been using their bikes regularly, will find Trek CrossRip+ to be as comfortable as the Trek super commuter.
Distributing ones weight over arms, waist, and leg makes it easier to transfer power and be comfortable.
Yep, Looks like the dude in Spandex on the Geico commercial ! ... Yuck ! ?
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
I don't know about the rest of you, but that new bike would need some upgrades for this old man to call it a gravel bike. The seating position as already mentioned would be first first on my list, but then there's the tires. They would need to be much larger!
I don't know what country you live in but here in the states, the average adult male is 5'9" and 200 lbs with a 40 in. waist. The average female is 5'3" 171 lbs, with a 39" waist. Quite the contrast compared to the ideal 36/24/26! The average adult BMI is 29 and climbing (the average american is getting shorter and fatter over time), while a healthy BMI is 19 to 25. Americans are by CDC definition, extremely obese on average. That's half of all americans. Half.
From that perspective, a very upright riding position makes more sense. A rider with a 40"+ waistline is simply not going to be comfortable bending forward at the waist for any extended period of time. I know many adults who can't touch their toes. Some can't even SEE their toes.
We're just in a state right now where the majority of americans are so fat and inactive that a bicycle for athletic riding is inconceivable. What I see in your post is an inversion of the normal perspective. It's almost as if you are ridiculing fit, thin people and are posing obesity as the new norm. In fact, I'm certain of it. This is not a healthy perspective.
Sport and competitive road riding are popular in all corners of the world. There are enthusiast riders all over the world: East Asia, South Asia, North America, Northern Europe, the UK etc. There is definitely a market for sport/racing road bikes. A sport bike with assist is very helpful when climbing for example. Anyone who has ridden a giant road e for example, or a cannondale road ebike marvels at how quickly these bicycles climb.
I ride a road bike and the speed is awesome. I'm much faster on a road bike with drop bars than I am on a city bike with flat bars. Even with it's longish 165 mm head tube, I can get pretty aero in the compact drops.
All of which is to say: don't knock it till you try it. Road bike riding is a lot of fun. On certain sections I can drop radrovers trudging along on throttle with their top speed of 20 mph. Road bikes are very light, very aero, with very light wheels designed for speed, speed and more speed! They also handle more quickly. Not to mention the ease and pride of carrying a super light weight bike which can weigh under 14 lbs in the highest end configurations. It's even possible to build 10 lbs road bikes, rideable 10 lbs road bikes.
A bit about terminology: those "curly" bars are referred to as drop bars. The "clip ons" are probably clip on aero bars. Those were popularized by Greg Lemond who won the 1989 TdF (tour de france) using clip on aerobars for the first time in a TdF time trial. Lemond won the 1989 Tdf by a shockingly slim EIGHT SECONDS in a 2,000+ mile race! The most exciting finish in TdF history, that's for sure!
It's kinda sad to see the tradition and passion of road racing and sport riding disrespected in such a flippant fashion. As excited as I am about the growth of the ebike market, the sudden flood of riders with little to no knowledge of actual, non-motorized riding is quite sad. Ebike riders may not see much value in road bikes, but I say it is thrilling to see the fittest endurance athletes on the planet drop the hammer and average THIRTY FOUR FRIGGIN MILES PER HOUR under the power of their own legs, heart and lungs alone. See Lemond 1989. TdF. Guess which guy is Lemond (the winner). And guess which one is Laurent Fignon, runner up in 1989. Hint: the winner wears a yellow jersey.
https://rouleur.cc/editorial/lemond-tour-de-france/
A pro rider can put out a staggering 1,400 watts peak during sprints. Which dwarfs the pitiful 500-750 watt peak output of a typical e-bike. A pro rider can AVERAGE 450 watts for 45 minutes at a time. This is nearly DOUBLE the nominal output of a typical mid drive motor such as a class 1 bosch system.
The top road racers in summary are just as powerful over long stretches and far more powerful during sprints than the power output any class3 ebike can attain. Oh, and pro riders don't need to be plugged in after 20 miles.
So show some respect.
And as far as criticizing the efficiency or efficacy of road bike riding as a form of exercise compared to mountain biking or upright ebiking for lack of a better term, forget it. You might as well give up on bicycling altogether to pursue other forms of exercise. Road riding burns a lot more calories than riding an ebike. Second, bicycling in general is not a weight bearing form of exercise. Weight resistance or weight bearing exercise is required to build or even maintain bone strength and muscle mass, and cycling doesn't do that. In this regard, you need to walk, run, lift weights, do pullups, situps pushups, play basketball, ultimate frisbee or otherwise do something besides sit on your bum. And that's exactly what you are doing when you ride a bike. You sit. And you spin your legs really fast. Or slowly in some instances. Let's not pretend as if bicycling in any form is an ideal form of exercise. It builds endurance and promotes muscle tone but doesn't build bone strength or muscle mass (track cyclists being an exception). To the contrary, the most successful racers are unusually thin and excess muscle mass harms performance.
I'll add that your claim that mountain bike racers have more "balance" or symmetry to their physiques is baseless. As a matter of fact, many riders race both mountain and road bikes, and/or gravel bikes. There is a great deal of overlap. And in all instances, (track cycling being one exception), additional weight either in the form of fat or muscle detracts from a bicycle racer's performance.
Your attacks and criticisms of the sport of cycling are unwarranted and totally baseless.
Your statement on the crazy obesity rate in the United States is dead on and very sad. It's a huge factor in our health care costs and that burden should be carried by the fat people and it's not. No politicians on either side of the isle will even talk about it because they don't want to offend their bases so I don't see much chance anything changes in the near future. I lost 40lbs riding an ebike over 6,000 miles the first year I owned one and got down close to my high school weight at 57, but then had an accident on the bike and severely fractured 3 cervical vertebrae. I'll be back on the ebike soon and will drop the weight I've put on since the accident in a few months.
I respect pro riders. My opinion though is still ... "what is best for them is not necessarily best for non-race riders" - drop bars road bikes just don't make sense for most riders as others have also mentioned. I just don't want people buying an ebike in hopes of riding more and getting back in shape to be overly influenced by what pro road bike riders ride.
You did seem to touch on the same thing I mentioned ... that pro road riders typically do not have good muscular body balance. Their legs are typically much more defined then then upper bodies. Just a fact. That doesn't take away from their fitness level or the power they can put into riding for long distances (all of which is why I think ebike regulations for power are set too low and hurt the potential of ebikes for transportation use).
Agreed ! I'm 58, 6' 220lbs. So any gravel cruising I do is going to be on 4" tires for the stability they offer. I don't really require the Gel seats yet, but they are nice.
this is a pretty awesome bike! my one wish is with these bikes coming out, they make them class 3. i find 20mph to be pretty limiting (i'm in CA). i'm guessing yamaha and the like don't want to limit the market size. maybe have an option at the dealer to toggle between the classes without voiding the warranty?
as far as drop-bar versus non drop-bar, i find most on this site prefer non drop-bar. and that's just a matter of preference. i believe the preference for drop-bar is greater the faster you want to go, mostly because it's more aero.
i think both groups should be happy. the more bikes that are being developed, the more choice and competition there is and everyone wins.
as far as drop-bar versus non drop-bar, i find most on this site prefer non drop-bar. and that's just a matter of preference. i believe the preference for drop-bar is greater the faster you want to go, mostly because it's more aero.
i think both groups should be happy. the more bikes that are being developed, the more choice and competition there is and everyone wins.
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