New motor: Made in Canada, 2022 Mid-drive system

[Gionnirocket]

The more I hear... The more I'm convinced this will have a small market.
And yes I know their patent doesn't pertain to the motor. But they still did it first, and they still did it better

 

[roshan]

The more I hear... The more I'm convinced this will have a small market.
And yes I know their patent doesn't pertain to the motor. But they still did it first, and they still did it better

That's totally fine for you to be convinced of what ever you want. It's a free world

 

[Bubba zanetti]

The more I hear... The more I'm convinced this will have a small market.
And yes I know their patent doesn't pertain to the motor. But they still did it first, and they still did it better

Now that you have made your points, take your dinky toys and go home. Your petulant and adolescent attitude with you. You are contributing nothing but further insight into who you are.

 

[Deafcat]

Range wise, we've found the XD does extremely well up against bikes with Ultra motors.. the XD is "never in the wrong gear", assist wise. We'll be doing more extended range testing this year for clear estimates with the production configuration.

 

[JRA]

Let's face it, if range is your priority there are only two ways to achieve the maximum you desire in the eBike world.

1: The biggest battery you can stuff on board

2: A light as possible bike with a small wattage motor and pedaling your A#$ off.

 

[Ken M]

Thanks @roshan.

I must say that I’m even more confused now. If I’m getting this right, this is effectively a light electric motorcycle / dirt bike motor in its current form for all intents and purposes. It has some bicycle components , and it’s different in the way that it is designed.

Future updates may include a torque / cadence sensor if there’s ever an on-road use case.

Looks exciting. Probably not for commuting or emtb use cases. I’m sure there’s a cargo use case and dirt bike use case as highlighted .

Kudos for trying something new. Good luck with the future

I think everyone is over-thinking this ebike. There is a significant benefit of separation of motor and human inputs as it allows both to be optimized. I'm sure that is why the Nicolai Eboxx achieves that in a different, albeit very expensive, way. The main benefit of this is probably going to be in the commuting and cargo bike segments and less so in the emtn bike segment but it's still a good idea.

What is really sad is that regulations in most countries are impacting the tech such that the ebike industry is not getting a many people out of cars for urban mobility as they could if they dropped this toy-like nonsense of a 250W limit before they are no longer an ebike (putting the costs of registration and insurance on ebikes kind of negates the cost saving incentive to some commuting not in your auto). Obviously the US has a much better federal definition for ebike commuting but the state 3-class legislation took that simple definition and parse it into non-nonsensical classes without justification.

 

[Deafcat]

Let's face it, if range is your priority there are only two ways to achieve the maximum you desire in the eBike world.

1: The biggest battery you can stuff on board

2: A light as possible bike with a small wattage motor and pedaling your A#$ off.

Right, if you really want hypermile range figures. Our expectations are realistic with the XD, we needed it to match the Ultra in range, but it may be overall exceeding it (however, this was with Ultras trying to keep up with XD, so they were being pushed pretty hard).

For a lot of our group riding days, I was riding my Ultra (Deafcat Lowfat) as the Pace bike:

https://imgur.com/j2521Cs

That's one of the lightest Ultra builds, under 50 pounds without battery, and geared for road speed... I was never able to stay ahead of the XD test bikes, no matter where we rode (both trail and street riding)

More to the point: My battery consumption, versus the XDs, was never better than theirs, but I was also trying/struggling to keep up



Ken M: you got it! Since both sides are independent they can be optimized individually, instead of compromising by needing motor and cyclist to work on the same drive.

 

[Chapooski]

Let's face it, if range is your priority there are only two ways to achieve the maximum you desire in the eBike world.

1: The biggest battery you can stuff on board

2: A light as possible bike with a small wattage motor and pedaling your A#$ off.

3: Tire choice

 

[pennybags]

I think everyone is over-thinking this ebike. There is a significant benefit of separation of motor and human inputs as it allows both to be optimized. I'm sure that is why the Nicolai Eboxx achieves that in a different, albeit very expensive, way. The main benefit of this is probably going to be in the commuting and cargo bike segments and less so in the emtn bike segment but it's still a good idea.

I would do a hard disagree on the commuting piece. Per Deafcat and Roshan, in the current state, this is just pure freewheeling - with little to no user feedback. As we all know, doing torque sensing is really hard and having an external torque sensor is even harder. The only ones I can think of that do a reasonable job is Stromer - and even they had issues. I believe inntorq got bought out as well so there are not that many options for good, smooth external torque sensors.

1. I am trying to be realistic - this is a dirt bike, primary use case is throttle-only cargo, and it may look more bicycle-y.
2. Biktrix is trying to do something different. If they succeed in the cargo / dirt bike scene, there is no need to waste time and do PAS. My concern is echoed in the overall system though - how easy / hard is it to retrofit an existing frame with this ?

This is not about power at all - no one in their right mind is towing 2000 lbs anywhere close.

Here is an older video of a TQ motor pulling a much bigger train.

However, hunters struggle to pull 400 lb deer due to the awkward terrain - got nothing to do with the motor power.

Biktrix would be doing themselves a favor if they offer it as a stand alone setup. A lot of people have Ultra frames. It may end up costing around 12-1500 to convert an existing frame with the multitude of pieces, but there is a huge market for speed junkies whether we all like it or not.

Personally I am not convinced about this motor for anything other than a dirt bike as the worst case and a heavy duty cargo bike as the best case.

 

[Bubba zanetti]

Depends on where you live. As an urban bike, a great hauling motor for sure. Otherwise not so much. Where I live, in a very rural, steep mountainous area, this could be a great backroads explorer, for the 10’s of thousands of km of FSR‘s. Also a hunters special here where Elk hunt is so popular. And just hauling a good camping kit to some favourite spots I currently go to on my DS motorcycle. Quieter for wildlife viewing too. Going to places like this …

 

[Deafcat]

Pennybags: We've had great times using these bikes for Commuting through four seasons, this is how we get most of our test miles... daily driving in all conditions, including thru winter.

PAS is part of the solution here, and we're very happy with the torque-cadence system in development. It's better than anything I've used, and doesn't require unusual installation (or installation inside a bottom bracket/motor).

 

[scrambler]

Personally I am not convinced about this motor for anything other than a dirt bike as the worst case and a heavy duty cargo bike as the best case.

The profile of people who want or need more power and torque than what regular 250W motors do is large and varied.
It may be people doing off road trail climbing, it may be cargo, or it may be city biker who live in places like San Francisco where the whole city is 20% to 30% inclines all over

if you want or need 2000W+ with 200Nm+ of torque, and excluding the high-power bikes like LMX, SEM or BoxxBike, your only option today was the Bafang Ultra with the Innotrace / Archon X1 controller.
This will add an extra choice, with the added benefit of the dual drive train which will remove the concern of wearing off the pedaling drivetrain with its gear changing system.

Once out and reviewed with the PAS option, we will be able to list all the pros and cons of each solution. For now, it is always good to have more options

 

[scrambler]

PAS is part of the solution here, and we're very happy with the torque-cadence system in development. It's better than anything I've used, and doesn't require unusual installation (or installation inside a bottom bracket/motor).

Have you by any chance worked with Sensitivus for the torque sensing solution

Contactless Torque Sensor Module

Responsive strain gauge based contactless torque sensor module datasheet and specifications. For electrical bicycles (e-bikes) and more.

sensitivus.com

 

[Gionnirocket]

Now that you have made your points, take your dinky toys and go home. Your petulant and adolescent attitude with you. You are contributing nothing but further insight into who you are.

Who's the angry old man?
Seems the only support is from Canadians
Nice to see the patriotism

 

[pennybags]

Depends on where you live. As an urban bike, a great hauling motor for sure. Otherwise not so much. Where I live, in a very rural, steep mountainous area, this could be a great backroads explorer, for the 10’s of thousands of km of FSR‘s. Also a hunters special here where Elk hunt is so popular. And just hauling a good camping kit to some favourite spots I currently go to on my DS motorcycle. Quieter for wildlife viewing too. Going to places like this …

View attachment 115152

This is exactly the use case I am thinking - dirtbike with throttle. However, struggling to see why someone would get this new motor instead of an actual dirt bike with a better motor (Sur Ron FWIW) .

Anyhow - instead of beting down on stuff, all I will say is that this is something new, and somewhat exciting. Hopefully Biktrix is able to hit on a segment that needs this.

May not be ready for primetime but may be with work and refinement it will get there. Flyon is a great example where the motor needs so much to get to production and still lacks adoption.

 

[Merle Nelson]

It will be interesting to see what uses this bike is adopted for and loved the most.

I watched a marketing video which included "racing" two other ebikes up a dirt hill. A polite tester/competitor would have told the two other riders to go ahead and turn their power on ss they passed.

 

[Ken M]

I would do a hard disagree on the commuting piece. Per Deafcat and Roshan, in the current state, this is just pure freewheeling - with little to no user feedback. As we all know, doing torque sensing is really hard and having an external torque sensor is even harder. The only ones I can think of that do a reasonable job is Stromer - and even they had issues. I believe inntorq got bought out as well so there are not that many options for good, smooth external torque sensors.

1. I am trying to be realistic - this is a dirt bike, primary use case is throttle-only cargo, and it may look more bicycle-y.
2. Biktrix is trying to do something different. If they succeed in the cargo / dirt bike scene, there is no need to waste time and do PAS. My concern is echoed in the overall system though - how easy / hard is it to retrofit an existing frame with this ?

This is not about power at all - no one in their right mind is towing 2000 lbs anywhere close.

Here is an older video of a TQ motor pulling a much bigger train.

However, hunters struggle to pull 400 lb deer due to the awkward terrain - got nothing to do with the motor power.

Biktrix would be doing themselves a favor if they offer it as a stand alone setup. A lot of people have Ultra frames. It may end up costing around 12-1500 to convert an existing frame with the multitude of pieces, but there is a huge market for speed junkies whether we all like it or not.

Personally I am not convinced about this motor for anything other than a dirt bike as the worst case and a heavy duty cargo bike as the best case.

My view of commuting value is not about climbing the steepest incline or a top speed of 65kph on an ebike. I think a drive system that provides the means to average say 40-50kph/25-30mph in an urban environment is inherently effective human scale transportation (bikes commonly hit those speeds by some good riders and by almost everyone on downhills so spare me that an average speed in that range is really more dangerous). It's not crazy fast but that average speed pretty much matches most modes of transportation in any urban environment. I understand that there are those that argue that the 25kph/15kph assist limits in Europe keep the trails and MUPs safe(r) but they are totally ignoring the ongoing impact of cars / non-human scale transportation solutions. The auto and oil industries were/are behind legislative efforts to neuter ebikes to keep them mainly recreational and leisure because if very effective urban mobility they will get people out of cars and the financial impact will be felt by both. This is not a conspiracy it's just a fact that really good human scale transportation is just recently becoming a technical feasibility and humans don't need the comfort of a car for every trip from home.

It is exhausting debating those that believe 15-20mph assist cut-offs make sense because we should limit ebike speeds to the slowest speeds of any use they may have (like riding singetrack trails) but that side of the debate clearly isn't looking at the big picture. Urban congestion, climate change, resource depletion, etc. are real issues and more ebike use for TRANSPORTATION can help a lot. Fine if the trail riders want their 15mph 250W toys but stop trying to claim that should also be the limit for urban mobility ebikes....look at the big picture, not what your local trail manager says is good for your access to more dirt single track trails. C'mon people.

 

[vincent]

i agree with ken on this, i dont want to see these kinds of bikes on the multi use loop in tucson but any bicycles on the roads that help people keep up with car traffic is safer, this looks like a good commuting bike to me, way less maintenance etc
good ranch work bike, hunting bike etc
excited to see where biktrix takes this

 

[Deafcat]

Have you by any chance worked with Sensitivus for the torque sensing solution

We haven't, but it's a good design for specific configurations. We use similar technology though (most systems essentially use one of only two ways to measure the torque load).

 

[m@Robertson]

Having done years of commuting on a bike that cruised at 28-30 mph, I can wholeheartedly agree. And I did that on a bike I geared so I had to pedal hard to get there. Lost, I think, 40 lbs in my first year on it. And I don't do throttles except for getting off the line. Halfway across the intersection from a dead stop its PAS all the way forward until the stop at the next light.

On the long, arrow-straight streets here, commuting home, I have had drivers roll down their windows and ask about the bike as they've been trying to leave me behind for miles but I keep pace (they may pass me mid block, but I catch them at the light and I zoom off while 20 cars accordion-expand out from that same stop in a slow parade). Faster = more practical if your bike has a job and you have somewhere to go to get something done. If its for sightseeing in a promenade around the block or a trail somewhere, yeah sure speed is not a plus.

I am certain that @Deafcat can be taken at his word and PAS can have resistance on the pedals - since my bike has a 4kw peak across its 2wd twin (w/PAS) motors. I can pedal myself to exhaustion if I want and its not brain surgery as to how to go about it if you've got some build experience.