New Bosch Motors Q&A

[Dionigi]

Even though I am in the U.S., the throttle availability is a non-issue for me. I prefer the ebikes not be equipped with them. I realize they do help some shops sell ebikes to North American newbies - that are looking for something more familiar to get started.

I agree. The USA has a very high percentage of obesity and a throttle does not aid in shedding a few pounds. But I guess for some potential buyers using a throttle on the hills to get to a strip shopping center for lunch is a step in the right direction for a healthier lifestyle.

 

[GregGritton]

Mickey - one thing you mentioned in the video is a refined eMTB mode, what adjusts the amount of assistance based on pedal power. But isn't that what a torque sensor does? Torque sensing bikes are supposed to output power proportional to the power you put in, and Bosch seems to do a decent job of it. So how is eMTB mode different?

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I'm sorry, but when you break a chain it is easy to fix if you take a few spare links and a small chain tool. My multi-tool has a more than adequate chain tool right on it.

In practice, my experience is that you don't so much break a chain as bend it. Especially if you crash and mangle your derailleur hanger and the chain gets all twisted. The "solution" there is to convert your bike to a single speed (with that chain tool again) and limp home.

Yeah, right. Repair a chain in the field. If 1 in 1000 even know what chain break tool looks like, let alone how to use one, it would be a stretch.

 

[Smultron]

Can any European riders confirm this?

Riese&Müllers offers many bikes in both versions and the difference is €400 ($450) insurance is less than €50 for a year.

 

[Manu]

Can any European riders confirm this?

With speed pedelec 45 km/h = moto and more tax,card secure,card driver,year by year inspection tecnical moto.

 

[Manu]

New engines ....new problems to unlock the speed 25km/h=Flyon.........old engines unlock have more speed.....

 

[Smultron]

...more tax...year by year inspection....

At least in Germany that is not true and I would guess it is the same for all of the EU.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Yeah, right. Repair a chain in the field. If 1 in 1000 even know what chain break tool looks like, let alone how to use one, it would be a stretch.

Of course you are correct.

Although in practice if you break a chain you'll need to have a pair of tongs to get the chain shrapnel out of your calf. So the need for tools and skills is not at all eliminated.

 

[Ken M]

It will be difficult to endorce/regulate a law like that, but But in Europe is already being done,


Well with a Pas can adjust the level of battery usage. Cruise control would have been a lot better, that and throttle for fast acceleration from stops should be first 2optionS.
With both can also pedal like you said and with cruise control can also keep the battery usage in control. Say CC @20mph would have been PAS LEVEL 2.

Important is for the pedals to be there ? no matter how slow or more important, how fast the ebike goes. W/o pedals they will say is a motorcycle. And then can pedal once in a blue moon/ when exercise is needed or when not tired. Ia just basic common sense.

Maybe they are regulating/enforcing in Europe but I really ???? that statement. I've read that a lot of speed unlocking dongles have been sold in Europe some maybe a large % of the Class 1 bikes have been converted to Class 3 higher speed pedelecs. This subject will be debated on EBR for quite some time because there are riders that simply will not ride a bike faster than 20mph and support the Class 1 regulations and there are those that commonly ride over 30mph on non-motorized road bikes that will want faster assist than 20mph if they purchase and ebike. The Federal Law does not restrict assist speed so long as there are functional pedals on the ebike but there are plenty of people on EBR that have read between the lines and claim there is an assist speed restriction.

If I'm riding in a road side bike lane on a street with 35mph speed limit I'm feel safer on an an ebike riding closer to the speed of the vehicles. I question that the assist limits are about safety. I think they are more about protecting mid drives (they don't do that well at higher speeds) and even a bit about limiting the appeal of ebikes for transportation so fossile fuels are a bit safer from competition.

 

[Solom01]

On a side note, although it is fashionable to say Americans are obese - and they are - the Europeans are quickly getting fatter too. The Brits are already as obese as we are and the continent is quickly following. As far as I'm concerned I could care less if someone uses a throttle or not - it's their choice. It would be very enlightening if anyone could show any type of scientific study (not anecdotal) that throttles on a bike cause more accidents or that slightly higher speed limits for ebikes lead to more injuries. The fact that Europe regulates this way is meaningless. This is the same bloc that for years subsidized diesel and called Americans backwards for not doing the same because, after all, diesel vehicles are much safer for the environment.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

...It would be very enlightening if anyone could show any type of scientific study (not anecdotal) that throttles on a bike cause more accidents or that slightly higher speed limits for ebikes lead to more injuries.

I'm sorry but sentences like that make my blood boil.

There are countless studies showing how increased speeds are associated with an increased severity of injury and increased death rates in a large number of scenarios. High-School level physics even predicts that would be the case. My question to you is what makes you think that an e-bike would be so different?

A lot of the stuff that gets posted on this board about speed and safety (especially any rationalizations that going faster is going to make you safer) is horribly bad advice. Literally in some cases it is the worst possible advice you could give someone.

The way I look at it is that if you fall of your bike at 25kph chances are you'll have some scrapes and bruises and injure your dignity. If you greet the concrete at 45kph chances are you are going to the ER.

If I'm riding in a road side bike lane on a street with 35mph speed limit I'm feel safer on an an ebike riding closer to the speed of the vehicles. I question that the assist limits are about safety. I think they are more about protecting mid drives (they don't do that well at higher speeds) and even a bit about limiting the appeal of ebikes for transportation so fossile fuels are a bit safer from competition.

This would depend so much on the actual nature of the accident that your assertion is worse than useless. Your higher speed wouldn't help you if a parked car opened a door or some soccer mom in her Ford Expedition turned right and you t-boned her. And even if it might make getting sideswiped by a car less severe, you still have to survive the landing at a much higher speed.

 

[Solom01]

OK, there are "endless" studies...can you cite some? It's kind of like the well known "fact" that helmets while biking are extremely important for safety, yet one of the reasons they're not required in Denmark and the Netherlands is because it's not thar clear at all.

 

[GregGritton]

It's kind of like the well known "fact" that helmets while biking are extremely important for safety, yet one of the reasons they're not required in Denmark and the Netherlands is because it's not clear at all.

The article at https://www.bicycling.com/news/a24110027/bike-helmet-safety/ gives a good overview of the pros and cons of helmet use and requiring helmets. It references a 2017 study review (https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/46/1/278/2617198) that found that helmet use significantly reduced the chance of head injuries. On the other hand, it points out that countries that have implemented protected cycling infrastructure and have high rates of cycling (such as Denmark and Netherlands) are far safer for cycling overall despite very low rates of helmet use.

Thus, it does seem quite clear that helmet use improves safety, just like speed reduces it, but also that there are more significant ways to improve safety than helmet use, such as protected infrastructure and safety in numbers (i.e. getting drivers to expect bicyclists). Requiring helmets tends to to reduce cycling and thus is probably counter-productive.

 

[Manu]

pedelec legislation UE is clear, no more than 750 w and no more than 25km / h assistance, no accelerator, outside of that it is no longer considered assisted bicycle .....
You need a circulation permit, vehicle insurance, annual vehicle technical inspections.
Legislature in Europe is considered a motorcycle or motorcycle because of the speed it reaches.


assistance at more than 25km / h = motorcycle


The local Spanish legislation is only 250w.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

This thread got way off topic. Started out about bosch motor q & a. As they say , Mikey, 'no good deed goes unpunished. '

 

[Mr. Coffee]

OK, there are "endless" studies...can you cite some? It's kind of like the well known "fact" that helmets while biking are extremely important for safety, yet one of the reasons they're not required in Denmark and the Netherlands is because it's not thar clear at all.

I put links to three different studies in the previous post. If you spend fifteen minutes on The Google you can find dozens. If you spend more time you can find hundreds.

Can you please explain to me what your hypothesis would be about how higher speeds would not increase injury and death rates? Have you identified some confounding factor that basically negates everything we know about kinetic energy and momentum? Please, please, please. If you know something others do not please share it here.

 

[Marci jo]

This thread got way off topic. Started out about bosch motor q & a. As they say , Mikey, 'no good deed goes unpunished. '

Agreed. This one went off the deep end.

 

[Dewey]

The UK is an exception to the rest of the EU regarding throttles. The EU created two pedelec classes "L1e-A, for motors up to 1Kw and speeds up to 25km/h, and L1e-B, for motors up to 4Kw and speeds up to 45km/h", the latter category requiring a whole lot of bureaucracy and hoop jumping to obtain the neccessary motorcycle license, registration, and insurance required in the UK, hence low sales Source: Dave Atkinson. However the UK has now developed its own 250w LPM category more like US Class 2 ebikes, just limited to L1e-A speed 25kmh/15.5mph and <250w power, requiring less bureaucracy (though each ebike has to be taken to a DVLA test center for inspection) plus a small one-time fee, no need for license, registration, or insurance Source: UK Pedelecs forum This new UK-only class allows brands like Wisper, Woosh, Kudoscycle, etc. to sell low-speed throttle-equipped ebikes and kits in mainland UK (but not N. Ireland due to the ongoing suspension of their legislative assembly meaning they cannot pass local laws to keep up with the changes to EU and UK law) eg https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/throttles-allowed.33843/post-488358 and https://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/update-on-n-i-e-bike-regs.29093/ The majority of ebike sales in the UK remain L1e-A pedelecs, but it is now legal again to buy one with a throttle.

 

[LimboJim]

Mickey - one thing you mentioned in the video is a refined eMTB mode, what adjusts the amount of assistance based on pedal power. But isn't that what a torque sensor does? Torque sensing bikes are supposed to output power proportional to the power you put in, and Bosch seems to do a decent job of it. So how is eMTB mode different?

I've been wondering about this myself.

I've ridden hilly trails extensively on Yamaha, Brose, Shimano and Bosch systems for the past few years, and always felt that Yamaha's "STD" mode, Shimano's "Trail," and Brose's Level Two had already been doing what Bosch CX's "EMTB" mode purported to do when it came out. I picked up a CX-equipped Haibike last year, and found the EMTB mode to be much less "natural" feeling than the others. Very herky-jerky, with much less pedal torque required to get to maximum output - it also killed battery power much faster. Hopefully the new EMTB mode is more refined...

And I'll say this - Shimano's eTube App, which allows the user to adjust each assist level's output and get software updates, is something they should all offer. As it stands, I have to bring my Haibike in to the shop to get the updates, and as far as I know, there's no customization options other than to switch EMTB mode off and bring back "Sport" mode. Unless you own a Giant or Specialized ebike, Brose and Yamaha offer no updates AFAIK.

 

[Captain Slow]

I agree. The USA has a very high percentage of obesity and a throttle does not aid in shedding a few pounds. But I guess for some potential buyers using a throttle on the hills to get to a strip shopping center for lunch is a step in the right direction for a healthier lifestyle.

Sad, but true