Need Help finding the right E-Bike

[Cybersnow]

Hello,
I live and ride my current Pedego Ridge Rider in the mountains of central Idaho. While I have no complaints about the bike in general, it just doesn't have the power to climb some of the steepest roads with its 50Nm motor. Since I am 78 years old, I would prefer a step through frame. I dont ride single track any more as most of the riding is done on paved trails (75%) or dirt roads (25%). I would also like a throttle as trying to restart going up a steep incline can get difficult without a throttle to get you started. Most of our riding is done on the lower levels of pedal assist whenever possible as it is one of our firms of exercise. I have read that the Bafang M620 is a great motor, but I am looking for a drive system that will provide over 100Nm of torque. Target Price is around $5k or less.
Thanks for your suggestions in advance.
Snow

 

[tgianco]

With a $5k or less budget, the ebike world is pretty much your oyster. I know some of the bigger producers well. For what you're looking for, you could check on Aventon Aventure2, Himniway Zebra Pro (mid-drive), Mokwheel Basalt, Mooncool MC3... all have throttle. I'm with you in wanting a throttle more as a "just in case" it's needed... get hurt, lose energy, etc. With your budget, you could also look at something like the Specialized Turbo Vado, but I don't think you'll get the torque that you seek from the more expensive brands without paying a good deal more.
There are a couple of manufacturers that are bringing out new mid-drive bikes shortly. I know Himiway has their A7 Pro coming out, which is a mid-drive w/ full suspension. I am kind of waiting on that one.

 

[Cybersnow]

I did look look at the new Aventon mountain bike but they are using a proprietary controller that will not support a throttle. I do want to go mid drive with an efficient motor. Today I talked to Evelo about their Omega bike. I will go look look at the Himniway line.

 

[indianajo]

Pedego Ridge Rider as sold now specifies a 749 w motor. That is all that is allowed now in most states on road.
Start torque can determine how much weight the bike can start on what grade, but power determines how fast you can go up the grade. The 750 quoted watts is input power, not torque*RPM the motor will put out on the rim. Geared hub bikes as Pedego have about a 5:1 gear ratio. Sprockets determine how much you can help a geared hub motor with your feet, not what the motor is doing to the tire.
Mid-drives suffer the same 750 w limit, but on expensive bikes with a rear sprocket bigger than the drive sprocket, (rare) the start torque can be multiplied. I view this as allowing the rider to climb steep grades at 2 mph, if he has the agility to steer the bike at the low speed. Most mid-drives have a 46 tooth drive sprocket. A few rear sprocket clusters have a 48 or 54 tooth granny sprocket. The main advantage to mid-drives, they cool better than geared hub motors. Thus you are less likely to burn the winding in Idaho on long slow slogs. The only mid-drives I know about that allow a throttle are some of the bafang. Europe bans throttles, so most big bike manufacturers will not sell such a bike. The one exception to the low watt limit in Europe is Switzerland, that allows more due their population actually riding in mountains.
I managed to score a 1000 w 48 v Mac12t geared hub motor in 2019, that develops its torque at a lower speed than the 10 winding motors commonly sold. Top speed is about 23 mph on a 26 " wheel. The 3 class rules have pretty much driven these off the US market. You are still allowed to buy a pallet of 8 from ailbaba it appears, but no US importer will retail them. Mine will drag 330 lb gross (me + bike +spares + water +weather gear + 60 lb groceries) from a stall to 7 mph up 15% grades here. As I ride rollers in Indiana, I can usually hit the bottom of the grade near 25 mph and maintain 15 up the next one. Mac stated once that lugging their motor at low speed for an hour would burn the winding. I begged a vendor in California 2019 that had some but would not sell them to me, because we have actual hills in So. Indiana. He wanted to sell me a crystal DD motor, that was notorious for consuming vast quantity of watts, but not for actually lifting any bike up a mountain.
Note watts to the motor is battery voltage * amps, so bootleg controllers for 1000 w or 2000 w I buy on ebay are less restrictive than what a controller sold by a bike wholesaler can sell. I managed to burn the winding on a 350 w rated bafang geared hub with such a controller, so yes you can burn windings in Clark Cty IN terrain. Just I haven't burned the Mac12t yet. I'm sure there would be grades that would do the job in Idaho if you lugged it long enough.
I sympathize with the need for drop frame and a throttle. Since the mid-sixties I have had trouble getting my leg over the seat to mount. Exercise will maintain heart health & muscle strength, but not flexibility. I also sympathize with the need for a throttle. There is one grade that exceeds 15% with a stop sign, that if the geared hub with throttle is not working, I have to get off and push the bike across the highway. Plus if I twist my VietNam era damaged knees, I can't walk or pedal properly for a week. Happy shopping, but I don't think you are going to find anything suitable in a store. If you want to buy a half pallet (four) of Mac12t 48v 1000 w geared hub motors, private message me with contact details. The mountain bike drop frame, well you can buy those on ebay or facebook market 7 days a week. Be aware rear hub motors will only allow 7 speed rear freewheel, not 8 9 10 or 11 speed clusters. That is one reason I put my Mac12t on the front. I have 24 speeds on the back, (8 speed cluster) 26:32 to 54:11.

 

[Cybersnow]

I think Inam in the market for a mid drive motor. As an engineer i am not excited about bikes that tell me they have a 750 watt motor. I look at that as input to the propulsion system, the out put is torque applied to the wheels measured in terms if newton meters (Nm). A 750 watt bike with 50Nm will give the same help up a hill as a 500 watt motor with 50 Nm. I would really like to find a step through bike with a Bafang M620 power system as their controller will support a throttle. I have built at least 6 bikes using the bafang modification kit and have been pleased with their performance but not their quality and materials, I understand that their M620 motors have solved their bearing issues. I just cant seem to find one.

 

[indianajo]

A 750 watt bike with 50Nm will give the same help up a hill as a 500 watt motor with 50 Nm.

Wong! Plus, nobody quotes at what RPM the torque quoted is. Grin published some torque vs RPM curves some years ago, but I think all that has been flushed from the internet.

 

[gromike]

Grin still has its motor calculator on their website: https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html . It will show you all the curves.

 

[tgianco]

I did look look at the new Aventon mountain bike but they are using a proprietary controller that will not support a throttle. I do want to go mid drive with an efficient motor. Today I talked to Evelo about their Omega bike. I will go look look at the Himniway line.

Forgot to mention the Zen Photon. That checks a lot of my (your) boxes, too.

 

[Cybersnow]

Wong! Plus, nobody quotes at what RPM the torque quoted is. Grin published some torque vs RPM curves some years ago, but I think all that has been flushed from the internet.

I wrote this after testing 7 different bikes that ran from 250 to 749 watt motors that quoted 50Nm of torque. I rode all the bikes up the same demanding hill and while I admit my leg muscles are not calibrated, it took about the same effort to top the hill. I then rode a step over with no throttle but a 750 watt motor and 100Nm of torque up the hill and it was significantly easier and faster.

I also own a Salsa bike with a 1000watt motor that Bafang sells as a kit that replaces the regular crank assembly. It must be at least 5 years old and was manufactured before the rule changes that included classification and throttle vs pedal assist. Top speed on max power and pedal assist that bike has hit 48mph on a flat road. Unfortunately it is a step over bike and requires bearing work (either regreasing or replacement every year or so).

I did order an Evelo Omega that seems to meet all my requirements but comes with belt drive and an automatic transmission. When it is assembled it has a 21 day/ 75 mile try out period with free return. I dont think I will be enamored with the automatic transmission, but will try it. Meanwhile will continue to look for a another bike.

 

[Cybersnow]

Forgot to mention the Zen Photon. That checks a lot of my (your) boxes, too.

i did look it up on the internet. It is almost identical to the Evelo Omega. The only difference is in the long distance battery set up and the warranty. I tried to call them to ask about the difference between the Photon and Photon Ultra but it doesnt seem like there is a US company. Their chat function did not work, their web page didnt work right. I did leave a phone message though. I am also curious why they want to sell bottles of oil on a bike with a belt drive.

 

[tgianco]

I did look look at the new Aventon mountain bike but they are using a proprietary controller that will not support a throttle. I do want to go mid drive with an efficient motor. Today I talked to Evelo about their Omega bike. I will go look look at the Himniway line.

Forgot to mention the Zen Photon. That checks a lot of my (your) boxes, too.

i did look it up on the internet. It is almost identical to the Evelo Omega. The only difference is in the long distance battery set up and the warranty. I tried to call them to ask about the difference between the Photon and Photon Ultra but it doesnt seem like there is a US company. Their chat function did not work, their web page didnt work right. I did leave a phone message though. I am also curious why they want to sell bottles of oil on a bike with a belt drive.

Good question. The one difference to the Evelo is that there was a suspension fork. Otherwise, I really like the Evelo. I will keep looking at it, too. They do have the 21-day trial period, a great warranty and great customer service.

 

[Cybersnow]

I have had a few conversations with their technical staff. As for the lack of a front fork, the bike will take most of the rock shock line. I do have a very good front shock on another bike but am not sure if it would fit. The other option is their comfort package which includes a better seat, a great seat post and a device that minimizes handlebar shocks.

 

[Cybersnow]

I also am looking at Frey Bikes which has a full suspension step through bike that is a little more expensive. It doesnt have the automatic transmission but appears to be China based with no US office. More than a little dicey.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

i did look it up on the internet. It is almost identical to the Evelo Omega. The only difference is in the long distance battery set up and the warranty. I tried to call them to ask about the difference between the Photon and Photon Ultra but it doesnt seem like there is a US company. Their chat function did not work, their web page didnt work right. I did leave a phone message though. I am also curious why they want to sell bottles of oil on a bike with a belt drive.

Hello,
We are a Canadian company, and we have a US website for US-based customers, but our physical presence is in Canada.
Photon Ultra uses the Rohloff hub. You will find some more information here in this link.
As you can see, we use the Rohloff hub, which is considered the best gear hub on the market.
This article from ElectricBike.com would offer you better insights: https://www.electricbike.com/a-rohloff-on-an-electric-bike/
The motor is Bafang Ultra - one of the most powerful motors and requires a very robust gear hub to handle the torque.

I believe by the time our personnel responded to your Chat, you might have closed the browser.

 

[Cybersnow]

Thanks for your quick reply, I did sit on your chat link for almost 5 minutes before I gave up. Here are the questions I wanted to ask:
if I order the bike for delivery to Idaho, how long will it take for delivery?
What is your warranty and do you have a trial/return policy?
If there is a malfunction in the bike during assembly or during warranty or even post warranty, how do I get the bike repaired ? Here i am assuming that it is not a frame issue.
Why are you recommending bottles of oil for the bike?
Thanks, I am very interested in your bike.
feel free to respond here or to my email.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Why are you recommending bottles of oil for the bike?

The website features accessories used for internal gear hubs like Rohloff and Kindernay. Enviolo doesn't use oil, but Rohloff does.
Please see this video here.

if I order the bike for delivery to Idaho, how long will it take for delivery?

We are only taking a $999 deposit towards the bike, and any order placed today will be delivered in mid-April.
The bike frame shipment left our factory sometime in early February and is en route to us in Canada. The rest of the payment would be due before the shipment.

What is your warranty and do you have a trial/return policy?

We offer a lifetime frame warranty, 3 years on the battery (UL-2271 certified), and 2 years on the other electronics.
We offer a 14-day policy, and the bike needs to be shipped back in pristine condition and less than 4 km on the odometer.

If there is a malfunction in the bike during assembly or during warranty or even post warranty, how do I get the bike repaired ?

We can support you through any bike shop of your choice and work with them to remedy the situation.
We also work with REI and Velofix for service. The best choice would be for us to ship the bike to a shop you trust and in this way, they can set it up just right.

 

[Cybersnow]

Thanks for the feedback! You have answered most if my questions here. Is the Rohloff only available on the off road version? Thank you for the nice email, maybe we should continue our conversation offline from this forum.

 

[tgianco]

Thanks for the feedback! You have answered most if my questions here. Is the Rohloff only available on the off road version? Thank you for the nice email, maybe we should continue our conversation offline from this forum.

You're asking good questions, so please keep it on this. I am interested in the Zen, too.

 

[Cybersnow]

Apparently the Rohloff is available only on the ultra version. However the Ultra ia available in 750W and 1000W. The 750 W is a cat 2 ebike but the 1000W is considered an off the road bike. That really doesnt bother me here in Idaho as we are super rural and nobody really watches that sort of thing. However, it might be a different case for you in CA. I did ask for the specific motors fir each of the versions though. (Via phone call)

 

[Tom@WashDC]

I also am looking at Frey Bikes which has a full suspension step through bike that is a little more expensive. It doesnt have the automatic transmission but appears to be China based with no US office. More than a little dicey.

My wife has a Frey Savannah CC (mid step thru). Super nice bike. Very well made and looks sharp. It's my go-to bike when my Luna Z1 Enduro is down (rarely).