Mod Radrunner 1 or Radrunner Plus?

[Ellis]

Saw the thread with Ccount and his modified Runner 1. Thanks for the updates and the pictures to go along with it Ccount! Well done.

I too am contemplating doing some major modifications to a Runner if possible and looking for some suggestions/comments/help.

If I were to modify a runner and wanted to add suspension fork, BBSHD mid drive, and say a 11-12 cassette would it make more sense to start with a runner or the runner plus? Basically, I would be buying it for the frame, selling pretty much everything else and then modding it the way I like it.

 

[AHicks]

I can sure identify with a project like this! After building my first 2 bikes, I bought a RAD City and proceeded to modify/rebuild MY way. About the only OEM remaining are the front wheel, the brakes, the battery, and the frame.

I really don't care for stressing the chain/drive train with big power, especially coupled with the fact I must then manage shifting and power, backing off on the power to shift, even for just a second. Big geared hubs make all that much simpler/brain dead.

I ended up with a MAC 12t (torque monster) geared rear hub and KT based components similar to what Bolton sells in his kits powering the 'City.

Next project will most likely use a RAD Rover donor, and a GMAC 10t geared hub with variable regen. which requires it's own controller and display to manage. Big power, tons of torque, AND a built in electronic rear brake will be the target here....

As far as Runner vs. Runner +, I'd need the front suspension and fenders for sure. Just not sure I'd want to spend 500 on them. I'd have to check around to see what might be available on the aftermarket to make that call...

 

[Ccount]

You will have fun! I should note that you will need to make some adjustments and minor modifications to get a suspension front suspension fork to work, because as of now, as far as I know, there are no simple bolt on ones available for the radrunner. It was not that hard to do, but if it is something you are not comfortable with, I would suggest the Plus. The Bolton front end is under $200 (I can't remember), which would make up most of the cost difference between most of the models!. I suppose waiting time for delivery is an issue as well. Have fun!

 

[Ellis]

I really don't care for stressing the chain/drive train with big power, especially coupled with the fact I must then manage shifting and power, backing off on the power to shift, even for just a second. Big geared hubs make all that much simpler/brain dead.

Thanks for chiming in!

Curious, is that not what shift sensors are for?

I'm after a hill climber. That's why I was looking at a mid drive. Could care less about top speed or range. The runner is the type of bike you can hook up and/or carry an extra battery with you. Most of the time I will have my GF on the back and we plan on going off road. The other area of concern is when (not if) you get a flat it's much easier to fix with a mid drive. Also, the weight of the hub motor and her on the back makes me wonder.

 

[Ellis]

You will have fun! I should note that you will need to make some adjustments and minor modifications to get a suspension front suspension fork to work, because as of now, as far as I know, there are no simple bolt on ones available for the radrunner. It was not that hard to do, but if it is something you are not comfortable with, I would suggest the Plus.

Thanks for the response!

This is why I asked. I read about this in your other posts. Pure speculation on my part but I'm thinking seeing that the plus already has a fork and a cassette the frame itself would be more adaptable to what I'm trying to achieve? Novice talking here. Also if I so desired is it possible to change rim and/or tire size and go narrower or wider? Obviously you can't go up from 20".

The Bolton front end is under $200 (I can't remember), which would make up most of the cost difference between most of the models!. I suppose waiting time for delivery is an issue as well. Have fun!

Yes and thank you for that.

His fork has more travel.

 

[Ccount]

If you are looking for a hill climber, you MUST go to a real 750w Bafang motor. The power is insane! I would make it my first mod. I would highly recommend the 35A controller because you may burn up the existing one. That motor really draws some current, and the stock controller likely cannot handle that. And heck, you may as well get the color display while you are at it. As far as wheels, remember, the hub motor is connected directly to the wheel by the spokes, so you are talking a major modification to go to a narrower rear wheel! I'm not certain what your goal is, but there is a good variety of treat pattern tire designs out there which may suite your needs (ie road tread vs the knobby like tread it comes with).

 

[Ellis]

If you are looking for a hill climber, you MUST go to a real 750w Bafang motor. The power is insane! I would make it my first mod. I would highly recommend the 35A controller because you may burn up the existing one. That motor really draws some current, and the stock controller likely cannot handle that. And heck, you may as well get the color display while you are at it. As far as wheels, remember, the hub motor is connected directly to the wheel by the spokes, so you are talking a major modification to go to a narrower rear wheel! I'm not certain what your goal is, but there is a good variety of treat pattern tire designs out there which may suite your needs (ie road tread vs the knobby like tread it comes with).

There's a guy on youtube who does a pretty though/extensive videos who did your mod on the rover that you did with your runner with the Bolton controller, real 750w Bafang, 52v 17.5ah battery and the rover gears. The results were iNsAnE! I'm contemplating upping the ante and going with a mid drive for my reasons listed above. If this were to happen seeing I would be going mid drive due to the frame I would have to stick with 20" wheels but would this allow me to choose a different width narrow or wide if I wanted to? Again, novice talking here. lol.

 

[Ccount]

I only know what I have done personally, so I do not have any experience, thus no input on that! But thanks for the link, I will check it out. There is SO little out there for the Rad Runner, but I learn a lot from Rad Rover videos and discussions!

 

[cuekwe Jones]

If you are looking for a hill climber, you MUST go to a real 750w Bafang motor. The power is insane! I would make it my first mod. I would highly recommend the 35A controller because you may burn up the existing one.

I have read conflicting (or anyhow unclear) reports on whether or not the true 750w Bafang motor will fit the RadRunner and/or precisely what modifications are required. If you know, could you please explain in detail (photos help)? I would also like to know where you purchased the motor and the SKU/part number (so that I don't accidentally order one with a gear cassette instead of just the freewheel). Thanks!!!

 

[ExPatBrit]

If you are looking for a hill climber, you MUST go to a real 750w Bafang motor. The power is insane! I would make it my first mod. I would highly recommend the 35A controller because you may burn up the existing one. That motor really draws some current, and the stock controller likely cannot handle that.

The 750Watt is just more efficient because of the larger armature/ magnets. It doesn't draw significant additional current. It won't blow the standard controller.

IMHO the 35A controller is the first mod to do, for longevity and a little more oomph get the 750W motor.

Ali Express has the motor price has come down a little. No freewheel but Amazon has them.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000169793368.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.11.1668313aeLcINl

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Ali Express has the motor price has come down a little. No freewheel but Amazon has them.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4000169793368.html?spm=2114.12010612.8148356.11.1668313aeLcINl

According to the link you posted, these motors come with a freewheel, no? In any case, I read in a different post by Ccount that the 750w motor with the freewheel will not fit the RadRunner, or rather perhaps that the stock RadRunner single speed freewheel/sprocket will not work in combination with this motor. As I understand, he instead purchased a 750w Bafang motor that comes with a 7 gear cassette. Can you (or anyone else) please either confirm or deny this report?

Also, I'm wondering if anyone knows whether there is a substantive difference between the 35a controller upgrade from Electro Bike World vs. Bolton EBikes? EBW's price is a bit lower for the controller + display, and they always seem to be in stock (or anyhow EBW does not report back-orders only).

Thanks!

 

[ExPatBrit]

According to the link you posted, these motors come with a freewheel, no? In any case, I read in a different post by Ccount that the 750w motor with the freewheel will not fit the RadRunner, or rather perhaps that the stock RadRunner single speed freewheel/sprocket will not work in combination with this motor. As I understand, he instead purchased a 750w Bafang motor that comes with a 7 gear cassette. Can you (or anyone else) please either confirm or deny this report?

Also, I'm wondering if anyone knows whether there is a substantive difference between the 35a controller upgrade from Electro Bike World vs. Bolton EBikes? EBW's price is a bit lower for the controller + display, and they always seem to be in stock (or anyhow EBW does not report back-orders only).

Thanks!

Doesn't come with a freewheel. The thread is on the hub to install one. It took only a week to get here.

I assume you could just install a single gear instead.

DNP Freewheel

Not sure but I believe the Electro Bike World 35A controller did not include the tail light option that was included on 2019/2020 bikes

The dimensions for the motor are on the page. Unfortunately this is probably one of those things that you need to dismantle beforehand to see what you need to order.

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Doesn't come with a freewheel. The thread is on the hub to install one. It took only a week to get here.

I assume you could just install a single gear instead.

DNP Freewheel

Not sure but I believe the Electro Bike World 35A controller did not include the tail light option that was included on 2019/2020 bikes

The dimensions for the motor are on the page. Unfortunately this is probably one of those things that you need to dismantle beforehand to see what you need to order.

Okay, thanks. Maybe a confusion (likely on my part) regarding terminology. The description of the motor in the link you posted states "Bafang Screw Freewheel Rear brushless gear hub motor..." So apparently what this means is that the hub has threads that will accommodate a freewheel single speed sprocket or multi-gear cassette -- is that right?

 

[ExPatBrit]

Okay, thanks. Maybe a confusion (likely on my part) regarding terminology. The description of the motor in the link you posted states "Bafang Screw Freewheel Rear brushless gear hub motor..." So apparently what this means is that the hub has threads that will accommodate a freewheel single speed sprocket or multi-gear cassette -- is that right?

Terminology
Think of your socket set. If you have a ratchet you can tighten / loosen in one direction only.

Cassettes have no ratchet , so regardless which way the wheel rotates the pedals will turn , in the analog bike world this is called a fixie. Instead of a ratchet in the sprocket the ratchet can be in the hub.

A freewheel only engages in one direction, when you are coasting With your feet on the pedals they stay still.Drive uncouple/ disengage when the rear wheel rotates.

A cassette in an electric bike with no ratchet is a potentially dangerous proposition. Good way to break your ankles.
The current 2020 runner has a 11T freewheel.The bafang can use a freewheel single speed or multi speed.

There is no internal ratchet, So a cassette is not advisable. YMMV

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Terminology
Think of your socket set. If you have a ratchet you can tighten / loosen in one direction only.

Cassettes have no ratchet , so regardless which way the wheel rotates the pedals will turn , in the analog bike world this is called a fixie. Instead of a ratchet in the sprocket the ratchet can be in the hub.

A freewheel only engages in one direction, when you are coasting With your feet on the pedals they stay still.Drive uncouple/ disengage when the rear wheel rotates.

A cassette in an electric bike with no ratchet is a potentially dangerous proposition. Good way to break your ankles.
The current 2020 runner has a 11T freewheel.The bafang can use a freewheel single speed or multi speed.

There is no internal ratchet, So a cassette is not advisable. YMMV

Thanks for clarifying -- the "ratchet" concept of a freewheel I basically already know. What I did not know is to which part of the drive train the freewheel is typically attached (or integrated into); e.g., the sprocket/cassette or the motor hub itself?

If I understand you correctly, typical ebikes equipped with shiftable gears (e.g., my RadRunner Plus) will have a motor with the freewheel ("ratchet" mechanism) integrated directly into the hub of the motor itself, and to which a non-freewheel ("fixie") multi-sprocket cassette is attached. By contrast, a single speed ebike such as my RadRunner 1 has a freewheel built into the sprocket, which in turn attaches to the motor hub. Is this correct?

If so, then as I now further understand, the Bafang true 750w motor that you linked to has no integrated freewheel, yet which is not a problem for the RR1 so long as I can mount the stock single speed freewheel sprocket onto the new motor hub (which as I also understand requires a special freewheel wrench, and with which lots of people seem to be having difficulties because it won't fit over the motor cable. I have seen someone on YT use a split freewheel wrench, but I have no idea where to purchase one -- perhaps I would just need to take it to a bike shop).

By contrast, if I wanted to upgrade the motor on my RR+ I would need to purchase a 750w motor with an integrated freewheel -- is this correct? And if so, is it even possible purchase the Bafang motor with an integrated freewheel? I believe the answer here is yes. This is a version that comes equipped not only with an integrated freewheel but also a multi-sprocket cassette (though not identical to the stock RPB cassette). I believe I have seen some YouTuber's installing this setup on their RadRovers.

Thanks a bunch for your help!

 

[AHicks]

Cassette and freewheel both have ratchets to allow you to coast.

The freewheel ratchet comes as part of the gear set and that assembly screws on to the hub.

The cassette allows you to swap gear sets, without changing the ratchet.

Hubs are generally available either way, but are not interchangeable (cassette vs. freewheel).

 

[ExPatBrit]

Thanks for clarifying -- the "ratchet" concept of a freewheel I basically already know. What I did not know is to which part of the drive train the freewheel is typically attached (or integrated into); e.g., the sprocket/cassette or the motor hub itself?

If I understand you correctly, typical ebikes equipped with shiftable gears (e.g., my RadRunner Plus) will have a motor with the freewheel ("ratchet" mechanism) integrated directly into the hub of the motor itself, and to which a non-freewheel ("fixie") multi-sprocket cassette is attached. By contrast, a single speed ebike such as my RadRunner 1 has a freewheel built into the sprocket, which in turn attaches to the motor hub. Is this correct?

If so, then as I now further understand, the Bafang true 750w motor that you linked to has no integrated freewheel, yet which is not a problem for the RR1 so long as I can mount the stock single speed freewheel sprocket onto the new motor hub (which as I also understand requires a special freewheel wrench, and with which lots of people seem to be having difficulties because it won't fit over the motor cable. I have seen someone on YT use a split freewheel wrench, but I have no idea where to purchase one -- perhaps I would just need to take it to a bike shop).

By contrast, if I wanted to upgrade the motor on my RR+ I would need to purchase a 750w motor with an integrated freewheel -- is this correct? And if so, is it even possible purchase the Bafang motor with an integrated freewheel? I believe the answer here is yes. This is a version that comes equipped not only with an integrated freewheel but also a multi-sprocket cassette (though not identical to the stock RPB cassette). I believe I have seen some YouTuber's installing this setup on their RadRovers.

Thanks a bunch for your help!

As far as I know, no one sells an integrated, motor freewheel. However some vendors will install the your choice of freewheels on the motor and ship it to you. Bolton will do that.

Installing a new freewheel on the Bafang gear motor is easy takes about 1 minute no special tools required.

Removing the old one is a different story, the DNP tool I have has a big hole for the cable and connector to pass through. However the axle nut is 21mm and the tool won't clear that. So slotting the DNP tool is required. .

I purchased a new freewheel and installed it. I left the old freewheel on the old motor.

 

[AHicks]

Same here. I generally buy a new freewheel (DNP 11-34) with the new motor when I'm doing a swap. All free wheels are a snap to install. Takes longer to type it than it does to do it.

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Cassette and freewheel both have ratchets to allow you to coast.

The freewheel ratchet comes as part of the gear set and that assembly screws on to the hub.

The cassette allows you to swap gear sets, without changing the ratchet.

Hubs are generally available either way, but are not interchangeable (cassette vs. freewheel).

Fantastic -- this is the quick and clear answer I was looking for. Thanks very much!

 

[cuekwe Jones]

As far as I know, no one sells an integrated, motor freewheel. However some vendors will install the your choice of freewheels on the motor and ship it to you. Bolton will do that.

Installing a new freewheel on the Bafang gear motor is easy takes about 1 minute no special tools required.

Removing the old one is a different story, the DNP tool I have has a big hole for the cable and connector to pass through. However the axle nut is 21mm and the tool won't clear that. So slotting the DNP tool is required. .

I purchased a new freewheel and installed it. I left the old freewheel on the old motor.

Got it. I watched one video of a freewheel/cassette installation where the guy just screwed the entire assembly (gear set + freewheel) to the hub, basically hand-tight, and that was it. And I stand corrected that it is the axle nut, not the motor cable, that is problematic for the freewheel tool (though I don't know what "DNP" stands for).

This is all much clearer now. Thanks again for your help!