Looking for a commuter/trekker hybrid

[mobits]

Anything with an Impulse drive should be off limits. The data on the German Pedelec Monitor blog clearly shows that Impulse drives suffer high rates of failure compared to their rivals. And the data has been collected in sufficiently large numbers to make this more than a rumor. Moreover, it’s independent data submitted by fellow e-bike riders.

Some mandatory reading for any Impulse 2.0 buyer (paste in Chrome for a translation):

https://pedelecmonitor.wordpress.com/mittelmotoren/mittelmotoren-2/impulse/

As you can see, over 75% of the bikes have suffered failures, and sometimes even multiple failures.

Yikes, that's good to know. Guess I'll want to stay away from those - which are all over the Kalkhoff bikes. Thanks for the info!

 

[mobits]

Europe has the even nicer Trekking 9.0, which has the Bosch PowerTube and Modular Rail System for piggybacking an extra battery or installing accessories. Not sure why it is not listed on the Haibike USA site. But Propel in NYC has it, as does San Diego Fly Rides.

Nice, even more flavor overload. If I end up holding off on this a bit (which seems more likely at this point) I might be able to budget for one of the 9.x's.

Here's the answer I gave to a similar question in another thread (i.e. Bosch vs. Yamaha motors): Price is a differentiator, but also the Yamaha and Bosch systems each offer a different kind of power band. If you are a high-cadence (90 RPM+) rider, go with Bosch. If you are a low-cadence (60 - 90 RPM) rider, as I am, go with Yamaha. The Bosch system continues to support your pedaling at high cadence, whereas the Yamaha tends to peter out beyond 100 RPM. But the Yamaha system provides very high torque at low speeds, enabling quick starts from a stop.

Good to know, but does the fixed gear attached to the motor make a difference here as well? I'm more of a high-gear, high-resistance, strong-legged pedaler, so that might make the Yamaha a better choice (in terms of value and the RPM limit), though I would have thought that different size fixed gears might also affect this.

 

[Bicyclista]

I very rarely see anyone pedaling at 100+ rpm. It may be useful in some racing situations, but otherwise it is not an efficient way to ride. I don't see how it would be easier on the knees either. Granted, mashing high gears at a low cadence (less than 60 rpm) is bad, but that doesn't mean faster than 100 rpm is better. Pedal too fast and your stroke just becomes erratic, and you bounce all over the saddle.

As I said, I am a low-cadence rider, so essentially I agree with you. 60 to 80 RPM is my sweet spot. But if you look at Court's reviews of the Yamaha-equipped bikes, he is disappointed by the way power peters out at high cadence. And if you look at the threads in which this issue has been discussed, there are several forum members who are high cadence riders who agree with Court. I'm glad, frankly, that Haibike offers both options.

 

[Manu]

In Europe, having 500w motors is not a problem now, but having a higher speed of 25km / h is a problem.

Electric kits are prohibited.

Both bosch and yamaha in haibike have the ability to "exceed" or limit the speed.

Until the moment when it is known that the security forces have not arrested anyone for carrying out an electric bicycle, it is understood that the pedelec or pedelec is a product made in an industry with serial homologation.

The most suitable to reach 45 km / h is the bosch, except that you take the 500 yamaha that already appears as s-pedelec.

Yamaha offers superior performance without battery / drive unit assistance versus bosch


https://www.google.es/search?q=trad...&ved=0ahUKEwing7Ps5JzbAhUK66QKHTVmCf0QjGoI7wE
http://www.decathloncoach.com/es/share/eu1-d6tLCDb3IM



1.This without assist =28kilogramos.30km in this tour but really 48 km......run 18km before without assist. .....yamaha....

 

[MisterM]

Novo & irish, I've seen the dongles and that crossed my mind as one way to do it. An additional spoke magnet would definitely throw off reporting of speed and distance, I guess the idea was that having two that are evenly spaced would effectively halve the cap on pedal assistance, bringing a 28mph bike down to 14mph before cutoff, well within Euro limits. Of course, there's still that 350w motor... The propensity for errors doing this might be similar to the errors that some users have also reported with the dongles that you mention, but it's a good point.

I'm definitely not married to either way of powering the lights, and to be fair, having a separate apparatus to power it adds another point of failure. The main draw that the Kalkhoffs have going for it is the local availability of Euro-spec versions that wouldn't have nearly as many issues with international use.

I still have not found a recent model Haibike sold in the US with Euro-spec motor, which means I get a US version and try to govern it, while the motor will still be out of spec for some countries OR pay substantially more to get a Euro version shipped stateside, and then get an unlock for it. The latter is the safest option, but would definitely want to wait for a sale so it's a bit more affordable. Finally, I could just consider a different ebike altogether.

My understanding is that the motors in EU and USA are virtually the same, the only difference is the controller. But I don't know how accurate that information it is, or how possible it would be to swap out one for the other. If it was easy, I would imagine the unlock dongles not being nearly as necessary.

Baffled why you worry about meeting Euro standards? Nobody is setting up inspection roadblocks to fine you or toss you in jail if you've got higher-speed bike. There's a reason why dongle guys sell lots of product to Europeans suffering from capped speeds.

 

[mobits]

In Europe, having 500w motors is not a problem now, but having a higher speed of 25km / h is a problem.

*snip*

Hmm, can you point me to the most recent regulations that indicate that? I haven't seen anything that indicated that - it seems many places in Europe, Pedelec class is still limited to 250w as well as the speed limit you mention. What I am understanding is you're saying it's not strictly enforced.

Good to know about the Yamaha performance without battery - from that and what others have said it seems that the Yamaha may offer the better biking experience.

Baffled why you worry about meeting Euro standards? Nobody is setting up inspection roadblocks to fine you or toss you in jail if you've got higher-speed bike. There's a reason why dongle guys sell lots of product to Europeans suffering from capped speeds.

Fair enough of a point. I have never biked in Europe, I can only guess as to how stringent the enforcement of their regulations are. I don't know what the penalty would be for operating an S-pedelec as a Pedelec. I'm not keen on finding out, and I want to try my best to obey the spirit of the law. I'm not worried about being randomly stopped, but heavy use (say, ~300 days out of the year) over multiple years may have it come up. Furthermore, if I were to be involved in an accident of any sort and it were to be found that I was operating outside of regulations, it's an invitation to have the legal book thrown at me, so to speak. It's a risk that's difficult to quantify without knowing how falling on the wrong side of that could affect myself and the work I do in that country, so I'm happy to avoid it even at a bit of additional cost.

It's for that reason I am considering buying a European model, having it shipped over here and getting a dongle.

If you can point me at good reasons not to worry about this as much as I am, I'm happy to consider them. It would make for a far easier purchasing decision!

 

[Rakku]

In europe, its not that much of a problem because the EU did pass a new law at the beginning of the year which made higher wattage bikes possible.

I mean, my Radrhino has 750W and Im riding it here in germany legally.

 

[Rakku]

L1e-a or L1e-b?

Its classified as L1e-a but I think only because my bike has a throttle, dont know for sure though.

 

[mobits]

In europe, its not that much of a problem because the EU did pass a new law at the beginning of the year which made higher wattage bikes possible.

I mean, my Radrhino has 750W and Im riding it here in germany legally.

Would you mind pointing me to said law? The most recent and detailed info that I can find is this: https://issuu.com/groenesteden/docs/rules_regulation_on_electric_cycles (May 10th, 2017)
Which basically states the different classes of pedelecs and what requirements are in place for them across the EU.

Regulations exclude bikes in the <250w Pedal assist only with 25km/h cutoff.
L1e-A covers the same limitations with a max power of 250w-1kw
L1e-B covers those with a max power of <4kw, and max speed of 45km/h

While there is only a fairly light set of regulations for L1e-A "powered cycles", it does include licensing, anti-tampering requirements, maximum speed testing requirements, etc. This category can also be placed under additional restrictions by whichever Member State they are operated in. Ie, some places may be a bit more stringent about what you can and can't do with them than others.

At least according to this, staying in that narrow low-power/low-speed band prevents you from being subjected to the vast majority of these regulations.

Still not sure what the risks and repercussions are for operating outside of these. Seems like an "anything goes so long as you don't get caught" (AKA don't be stupid and you'll probably be fine) is the modus operandi. The hassle of avoiding classification is what I am trying to balance against assuming risk or accepting classification.

 

[mobits]

I think the OP will fall under L1e-b due to speed being higher than 25km/h. Of course, it depends which EU country he moves to. It takes time to implement the law in member states.

Yep, most US ebikes are going to be regulated under the L1e-b classification due to the higher speed.

 

[Rakku]

Here you go, this is the official document.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2...-A_Regulation.pdf?2502859001790126765#page=43

"L1e-A Powered cycle

(9) cycles designed to pedal equipped with an auxiliary propulsion with the primary aim to aid pedalling and
(10) output of auxiliary propulsion is cut off at a vehicle speed ≤ 25 km/h and
(11) maximum continuous rated or net power (1) ≤ 1 000 W and
(12) a powered three- or four-wheel cycle complying with supplemental specific sub-classification criteria (9) to (11) is classified as being technically equivalent to a two-wheel L1e-A vehicle. "

So basicly anything up to a 1000W and cutoff at 25km/h will fall under the L1e-A category.

Yeah sure, I do have to get a license plate but I think only because I have a throttle or because its over 250 or 500 watts.

The bikes of my parents do not need any registration same with the bike Im shooting for (Haibike XDURO Allmtn 9.0).

The thing is, with a license plate you are not allowed to ride on the sidewalk and only on designated ebike lanes (if existing) or the street.

But there is a little loophole.
Here in germany you have to have ensurance your bike, so in case a accident happens, somebody can cover.

If you have a vehicle in general which does not have ensurance, you get a hefty fine, up to 500€ or more I think and points on your drivers license (if you have 8 points you loose your license).

BUT, you only face a fine of 15€ if you dont have the license plate attached and get caught but you are still covered if a accident happens.

Basicly, I have the mandatory ensurance for the bike (which is like 25 - 30€ for a whole year) and dont have the license plate attached and ride where I please.

 

[mobits]

That's some great info Rakku, thanks for the detailed explanation! Of course, I can't expect it to be the same everywhere, but that makes the repercussions of operating outside of regulations far easier to understand.

I can't say I'll go the same route you went, but it gives me something to think about. Of course, the regulations and restrictions are subject to change too - these points may not even be relevant by the time my career puts me in that corner of the world.

That said, I currently see myself going one of two paths with a purchase here:

1) Get an ebike locally (domestically) that fits my needs at a reasonable cost - knowing that I may need to replace it within a few years. The Haibike Trekking 5.0s from 2017 would be a good option and can be had for reasonable prices. If I want to stick with it for longer, then get a dongle that will help adjust assist speeds depending on locality. Maybe not as flexible, minor risk riding it depending on where I go.
2) Wait a bit and get an ebike from somewhere in the EU. In this case, I'd go for something close to the top of the line in an unregulated vehicle class that'll last me for a long time - like the Haibike Trekking 9.0. Perhaps get a dongle right out of the gate and enjoy the flexibility this will bring without having to worry about where I end up. Going to be pricey.

I presume the dealer installed dongles still invalidate any warranty, so I might hold off on that unless speed becomes an issue.

I still need to work out my preference between the Yamaha and Bosch motors, as a strong feeling about one of them could affect which choice I make. I think only the Trekking 4.0 for 2018 uses the Yamaha.

Given my current riding style and preference, I may also look into getting a bigger front sprocket regardless of which bike I end up with.

 

[Rakku]

My next ebike will be a expensive one too, the Haibike XDURO Allmtn 9.0, costs around 5400€.

For loosening the speedlimit of 25km/h there is a neat thing called badassbox, it just clips on a certain place where a sensor is and tells the bike its running half the speed it actually is, so you up the speedlimit up to 50 km/h (which you never reach, at least not on a flat surface).

And you can just take it off anytime you want, and leaves no change to the bike.

Basicly its impossible to tell at a bikeshop, so no worry to void any warranty there, and you can take it off, if you get somewhere where you think you could be snatched.

All this is on your own risk though, not that I want to instigate such thing.

I for myself would not use a method which would have to be mounted on the bike in a kinda permanent manner, like a chip or dongle.

 

[mobits]

My next ebike will be a expensive one too, the Haibike XDURO Allmtn 9.0, costs around 5400€.

For loosening the speedlimit of 25km/h there is a neat thing called badassbox, it just clips on a certain place where a sensor is and tells the bike its running half the speed it actually is, so you up the speedlimit up to 50 km/h (which you never reach, at least not on a flat surface).

And you can just take it off anytime you want, and leaves no change to the bike.

Basicly its impossible to tell at a bikeshop, so no worry to void any warranty there, and you can take it off, if you get somewhere where you think you could be snatched.

All this is on your own risk though, not that I want to instigate such thing.

I for myself would not use a method which would have to be mounted on the bike in a kinda permanent manner, like a chip or dongle.

More great info, I was just reading about this in another thread.

If I were to get a EU bike and use it stateside, I'd definitely look at getting this. If it works well, keep it. If I want something different, simply replace it when the bike warranty expires.

Of course I've got the reverse problem if I were to end up with a US bike. I doubt many people are looking to slow down or otherwise put further limitations on the assist, but I think something adjustable like BlackPed would do the trick though.

 

[Manu]

The blackped, blueped and redped are luxury versions where certain aspects are personalized, from if you want always activated only in high assistance mode to be activated or with the light button. Really breaking down more than 45 km / h has no meaning for the huge battery / kilometer expense.
I have the blueped and limited to 45km / h, in my PW Yamaha.
I can give the 45km / h but with a lot of effort.
Surely the pwx yamaha is something better but I think it is much better a Yamaha s-pedelec designed for those 45km / h with locked speed.


You need to try bosch and yamaha, check the behavior from zero, the climbs, the performance pedaling with everything off. ¿Maybe brose shimano could be another option?


the effort of your knees

 

[mobits]

You need to try bosch and yamaha, check the behavior from zero, the climbs, the performance pedaling with everything off. ¿Maybe brose shimano could be another option?

Thanks for the info on the <color>Ped units. Definitely looking for a bit more personalized (ie. being able to fully adjust PAS dropoff speed, etc.) would be handy with a US ebike. Not looking to go super fast, but good to know it provides the option!

Motor preference discovery is next on my to-do list. I'm going to take a trip up to the local Haibike dealer and see if I can try both of them and determine what my preference is.

 

[markybolton]

On the Haibike nomenclature, be aware that the Sduro/Xduro as well as the numbering changed between 2017 and 2018 so you really have to look at the complete specs of the bikes to compare. Also while the primary Sduro/Xduro difference for years prior to 2018 was Yamaha/Bosch, other components are changed between them as well (e.g., compare the complete specs of 2017 Sduro Trekking 4.0 vs Xduro Trekking 4.0).

Not sure I followed the advantages you thought Kalkhoff and Focus have over Haibike Trekking models (other than bosses). I recently picked up a 2017 Xduro Trekking 4.0 after considering dozens of bikes and I couldn't find anything comparable to the price I ended up getting. Great frame, 27.5 rims with Super Moto X tires, great Lupine SL headlight/AXA taillight, SKS fenders, heavy duty rack, thru-axles, Bosch CX motor, front air suspension, etc. I think the Sduro Trekking is an equally good value at an even lower price point. I also really liked the Sduro HardSeven 6.0 bike but would have needed to then add all of the trekking options.

There are a lot of great bikes out there but it's really hard to beat the value of the 2017 Haibikes IMHO. And yes, the sizings/geometry of Haibike is odd. Be careful you don't buy a bike that is too big for you. Check out the geometry specs in detail to see what would be the best fit for you.

Can you really hit 28 mph on the 4.0? I have been desiring to buy the S 5.0 model!

 

[irishnutter]

No, the 2017 4.0 is the CX/20mph motor. If you want the class 3/performance speed motor/28mph, then yes, you would need the S 5.0. Some other differences are rims/tires/headlight. If you're doing all asphalt (or strictly commuting), the S is probably the way to go, if you want the option to do light trail stuff, I think the 4.0/CX is likely the better choice.

 

[Rakku]

Exactly.

The Bosch Performance CX is designed for high torque and varying conditions.

The Bosch Perfomance is the only one which goes up to 28 mph but sacrifices torque and power consumption (350 watt instead of 250 watt motor) for it.

If you only ride paved roads and want to commute speedy, I´d recommend the Perfomance 28mph motor.

If you vary in riding style and locations and include trails or smth into that, I´d go for the Perfomance CX motor.

You can always dongle your motor if you want a bit more speed, but you cant upgrade your torque.

 

[irishnutter]

Rakku, both are 350w in the US but yes, there is a software controlled torque difference.