LA Fires!

So now a giant lithium battery is on fire, hey California did you break some giant mirror?
It is very easy for people to think of California as any other state in the US. But it is huge and diverse in all ways and has a population of 40 million. Los Angeles alone has a population of 10 million, that is the size of Greece or Hungry. So, yes a lot happens here because it is so large and diverse. Oh, Alpine county has a population of 1,120, the size of a Junior High. It is pretty hard to make generalizations or lump it all together.
 
Forest management is bad all over the west coast. This includes US & state owned properties. I once thought paving 1 mile wide strips throughout west coast forests might prevent fire spread. Now with 80 mph winds at 10% humidity, I don't think that is even good enough. Clear cutting then mowing all forests 10 miles upwind of houses should be required, followed by annual burns of the resulting ground cover.
I expect my home insurance to go up 20% next year, to pay for the stupidity of people that live in a fire and earthquake zone. In 1983 I chose not to move there. I have summer property in a zone that could grow up in cedar maple & basswood trees, if I didn't spend weeks and weeks cutting them down and dragging them away from my residences. I cut trees 10 m away from my city house, also. We do have 12 week droughts here, also. Out to do more cedar extermination this afternoon.
 
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There are no forests in the areas where the current LA fires are active, so I do not see how "forest management" can possibly be an issue except in some people's imagination.

The combined fuel reduction budget (both from the states and federal) is around $10 billion per year. Realistic estimates of the amount of acreage needing treatments and their cost put that number at about one percent of what is needed to get caught up on that issue. I personally doubt we are ever going to see that kind of money budgeted for that effort.

In practice what will happen is that we will pay that price, one way or the other. If we just continue on the present course everything should be burnt nice and crispy in another 25-30 years.
 
There are no forests in the areas where the current LA fires are active
I agree with most of your points but not this one. Looking at google maps there is a lot of acreage covered with trees. I don't know if you're saying there are no forests in the sense that there are no areas of named forests, e.g.: Daniel Boone National Forest, etc. There are plenty of areas that Trump would have someone in California manicure. (Areas that could reasonably be called forested.)

There are also very large burned areas that are certainly not forested.

TT
 
I agree with most of your points but not this one. Looking at google maps there is a lot of acreage covered with trees. I don't know if you're saying there are no forests in the sense that there are no areas of named forests, e.g.: Daniel Boone National Forest, etc. There are plenty of areas that Trump would have someone in California manicure. (Areas that could reasonably be called forested.)

There are also very large burned areas that are certainly not forested.

TT
If you look at Street View a lot of those "trees" are just bushes. There is some timber at the higher and easternmost reaches of the Eaton Fire and some trees in the drainages at wet spots. But most of it is brushy.
 
If you look at Street View a lot of those "trees" are just bushes. There is some timber at the higher and easternmost reaches of the Eaton Fire and some trees in the drainages at wet spots. But most of it is brushy.
I thiink you're trying to put too fine a point on this. There surely aren't Sequoias in the area, but there are trees. Trees are still trees even if they don't grow very big in a desert area. I looked at Google Street View, and I see trees, but yeah, it's mostly brushy. I'm not there and I don't know what the locals call it. Maybe I'm being too picky too, but if we could define "forest" as an area that Trump thinks should be manicured by, in this case, Californians, I'm pretty sure large areas on either side of and north of Palisades Drive, for example, fit the bill. That's an absurd definition, but maybe the most relevant one in this situation.

TT
 
I thiink you're trying to put too fine a point on this.
Probably. But on the other hand the people who are complaining about "forest management" again have exactly zero idea what they are talking about. Forests are extremely complex systems and direct human intervention in such systems does not have a happy history, so I am skeptical that anyone has a clue what effective "forest management" would even look like. I'd also argue that for the last century we've had a policy of aggressively suppressing every wildfire, which is arguably "forest management", just very much the wrong kind.
 
When politicians pull out the classic..
'Lets not make this political'.

Thats a 100% guarantee they are worried they are going to lose.
 
There are no forests in the areas where the current LA fires are active, so I do not see how "forest management" can possibly be an issue except in some people's imagination.
The video of the Eaton canyon fire starting under an electrical pylon is clearly shown on Delorme So Cal map p93 is inside the boundary of the Los Angeles National Forest. About 300 meters from the nearest street in Altadena. Not that the electric line caused the fire. Electric company representative said on NBC news they have a recording of steady voltage on that line at that time.
Start of Palisades fire not shown on the news, but most of the canyons are in the Santa Monica Recreation Area. Topanga park is in there and was mentioned.
Whether the vegetation meets your definition of "tree" or not, there are plenty of videos on the news of the green stuff taller than 1 m burning rapidly.
Having watched "Natural Era" last night on PBS, it is possible to control vegetation with herbivores. Trees are knocked down and the bark eaten by elephants in Mozambique National Park. Wild african buffalo eat tall weeds, impala and such eat short weeds. Whether herbivores could be managed near LA without hazard to humans is to be determined. Goats and sheep caused a huge erosion problem in China's Loess province before grazing was outlawed. Terracing was installed by residents paid by the government to retain water and stop erosion. But California and the Bureau of Land Management need to do something proactive to manage the fire risk near cities. Even small towns like Paradise CA. Zoning should have prevented the buildup of large population in Paradise. Instead my home insurance pays for those homes to be rebuilt, with no payment for the regrettable deaths.
 
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So who would you say is to blame for these fires taking so many homes?

Obviously I know who blames who, its hardly a secret where all the shouting is coming from.

Someone has signed off these builds and all the relevant ordinance, I'm not exactly being controversial here.
Everyone is fact checking everyone else trying to win internet arguments, but the place clearly did burn to the ground.

It has to be someones fault when it was so clearly going to happen.. and if it's no ones fault then its just going to happen again
and will be treated as some kind of sacrificial anode attached to the fallout of the Goldrush.

Having lived in Southern California over 30 years, I can say this was an unprecedented event at least within that time frame. These were not 'normal' Santa Anas.

Yes, there were scientists who understood climate change might get this severe, but a lot of what burned in Altadena were on flat terrain, in a suburban neighborhood, over two miles from the hills. I think that is pretty unusual. I do not know, but I'm not sure at all that anyone felt, in 1962, when our house was built, that "it was so clearly going to happen." By 1973 or so, sure, my ecology teacher-- yes, that was a class-- explained to the class, "The term global warming is not really accurate. What we'll see is wild swings in climate, probably extreme cold as well, sometime early in the 21st century. We don't know exactly when. Probably, politicians will point to the cold snaps and deny that the planet is 'warming,' and that will be confusing. The general trend will be towards heat and drought, but there will be decades when flood and cold will also become more common."

So yes, in a sense, it was knowable, by the mid '70s, but didn't start trickling into the building code for quite some time. And some of the houses in Altadena were built in the 1920s.

If you read articles about the last big fire in Griffith Park, in 2007, you can hear the reporters gushing about the 'winds gusting to 35 miles per hour!' As if, you know, that was a high wind! And in 1992, I remember driving to work in a crosswind of 35-45 MPH, and that was reported on the news as if it was a big deal.

There are a lot of things that are 'so clearly going to happen' that our species seems to be doing nothing about-- or things we're doing way too slowly.

One thing I noticed from direct observation: The fire fighting technology, the speed of deployment, the speed at which more resources were brought to bear, has improved exponentially since then. Our home was saved in 2007, I believe, by a handful of crazy chopper pilots who flew in conditions when they should have been grounded because they just know Griffith Park that well. They did insane things; it looked like they flew directly into walls of flame to make some of those drops. I remember reading an interview with one pilot that was like, "Well, no, we can't really see anything, and the instruments can only tell us so much."

When the Sunset fire started, I thought, based on previous experience, "We are so screwed. Resources must be stretched so thin; we already have two major fires. There will be nothing left to fight this one."

Instead, what I saw-- just as one example-- with my own eyes above Runyon Canyon was like some kind of aerial ballet. The choppers were there faster, they dropped more frequently, than at any other fire that I've seen. Another thing I have not heard reported that I also saw: At least while I was watching the news, they missed less frequently, particularly on the northern side of the Palisades fire. I'd watch a drop, and think, "No way he's going to hit that hot spot..." but they would. In 2007, they'd have to try a couple of times.

If we'd had a wind event like the one two weeks ago with only the resources we had in 2007, I think that fire would just have burned down to Franklin or Hollywood Blvd.

I'm not saying we did enough to prepare or that we shouldn't do more. I think we should stop building in the hills, and avoid rebuilding in places that have burned. And stop renovations that increase the footprint of houses. I love some of the links posted here to fire-retardant materials, too.

Those of us who stay should know we may lose our homes. We should not expect an insurance bailout. I feel bad for people who have just moved to the hills recently. I didn't buy our home for an investment, I bought it as a place to live, and that worked out pretty well, largely by luck-- we are in the lee of a large hill, and that's protected us so far. I didn't actually consider that when we got the home. I did imagine that we were far enough away from heavy brush that we were probably safe, and that assumption was dead wrong.

It would suck if we had to retire without that investment, but I've always been aware that might happen.
 
Yay, SoCal's finally getting an end to the Santa Ana winds and some long-overdue and desperately needed precipitation!!


The San Diego office of the National Weather Service posts these well-done regional weather outlook summaries on YouTube at least weekly, and more often when important changes are afoot. Useful and educational at the same time — especially for map-lovers like me.

Maybe the NWS does the same for your region.
 
Forest management is bad all over the west coast. This includes US & state owned properties. I once thought paving 1 mile wide strips throughout west coast forests might prevent fire spread. Now with 80 mph winds at 10% humidity, I don't think that is even good enough. Clear cutting then mowing all forests 10 miles upwind of houses should be required, followed by annual burns of the resulting ground cover.
I expect my home insurance to go up 20% next year, to pay for the stupidity of people that live in a fire and earthquake zone. In 1983 I chose not to move there. I have summer property in a zone that could grow up in cedar maple & basswood trees, if I didn't spend weeks and weeks cutting them down and dragging them away from my residences. I cut trees 10 m away from my city house, also. We do have 12 week droughts here, also. Out to do more cedar extermination this afternoon.
Well written, Thank You !
Can you imagine the "Sons of The Pioneers" saying to themselves:
"If we don't cut these forests and saw logs then the the trees will burn and take our town".
Simple as that.
 
I had a quick look to see when they predict the next big quake.
It seems theres between a 55 and 99% chance of a 6.7 to 8 scale quake happening between 10 or 50 years.

With that detailed information I suggest Californians should build brick bungalows or balsa wood skyscrapers.

I'm not even going to check asteroid strike.
 
Yes, all this talk of worst ever is rather hilarious given that disasters of old make the LA fires look like a garden fire.
I would say they quickly learnt how to stop them.
Thats why wildfires are down 90% since we started recording them.
We lost our sh..a few years in the UK because one house burned down..next to a dry field.
We practically made Greta the Queen off the back of that.
 
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