Known Issues & Problems with Riese & Müller Products + Help, Solutions & Fixes

[BurbManDan]

Picked up my Charger HS Nuvinci one week (350mi) ago, and the Nuvinci hasn't survived the first week. While accelerating up a hill, there was a loud sharp pop from the drivetrain, similar to the sound of a chain hopping a tooth, and there was a similar slip of the pedals. After that, there is a regular clunking under any torque, most pronounced at lower gear ratio. Occurs whether the motor is on or off, but is louder under higher torque.

I'm hoping this is just a bad unit and not reflective of the design limits of the Nuvinci - otherwise this isn't going to be a workable configuration for me, which was a concern pre-purchase. The junior tech at the dealer was unable to support my diagnosis that the hub is internally failed, believing it might just be out of adjustment or repairable . The shop was also unable to outline the warranty process. They obviously have not made a warranty claim through R&M before, so I hope it's a smooth and fast process, and I'm assuming the hub will be covered...

 

[Matt A]

Picked up my Charger HS Nuvinci one week (350mi) ago, and the Nuvinci hasn't survived the first week. While accelerating up a hill, there was a loud sharp pop from the drivetrain, similar to the sound of a chain hopping a tooth, and there was a similar slip of the pedals. After that, there is a regular clunking under any torque, most pronounced at lower gear ratio. Occurs whether the motor is on or off, but is louder under higher torque.

I'm hoping this is just a bad unit and not reflective of the design limits of the Nuvinci - otherwise this isn't going to be a workable configuration for me, which was a concern pre-purchase. The junior tech at the dealer was unable to support my diagnosis that the hub is internally failed, believing it might just be out of adjustment or repairable . The shop was also unable to outline the warranty process. They obviously have not made a warranty claim through R&M before, so I hope it's a smooth and fast process, and I'm assuming the hub will be covered...

I am sorry to hear about the NuVinci. If the hub is the problem then the warranty will be with Fallbrook. i have never had to contact them but my LBS said they are slow to respond. they will help you though it is under warranty

 

[Over50]

Picked up my Charger HS Nuvinci one week (350mi) ago, and the Nuvinci hasn't survived the first week. While accelerating up a hill, there was a loud sharp pop from the drivetrain,..

Oh man that stinks. So sorry to hear about that. We Nuvinci owners will be very interested to find out exactly what happened and how/how fast this gets resolved.

 

[BurbManDan]

I'll keep y'all posted how it is sorted out. My hope is that R&M replaces the entire rear wheel under warranty by suggesting the shop swap the rear wheel with another of the floor models or by express shipping a new wheel.

If the replacement comes from Fallbrook, I'd guess it would just be the hub, requiring a wheel build, which I don't think this bike shop has the expertise to do. I suspect this would either take quite a while, or lead to additional problems down the road.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Picked up my Charger HS Nuvinci one week (350mi) ago, and the Nuvinci hasn't survived the first week. While accelerating up a hill, there was a loud sharp pop from the drivetrain, similar to the sound of a chain hopping a tooth, and there was a similar slip of the pedals. After that, there is a regular clunking under any torque, most pronounced at lower gear ratio. Occurs whether the motor is on or off, but is louder under higher torque.

I'm hoping this is just a bad unit and not reflective of the design limits of the Nuvinci - otherwise this isn't going to be a workable configuration for me, which was a concern pre-purchase. The junior tech at the dealer was unable to support my diagnosis that the hub is internally failed, believing it might just be out of adjustment or repairable . The shop was also unable to outline the warranty process. They obviously have not made a warranty claim through R&M before, so

I am surprised that you went with NuVinci instead of Rohloff. A high-miler such as yourself should go for a Rohloff.
I don't have much experience on the NuVinci but have a friend has done a LOT of touring on various bikes with IGHs. He now rides an E-bike with a hub motor.
The point is IGH's on E-bikes are still a work in progress. It's getting better each year. Most of the IGH's work fine for low speed (15mph EU limit) but high-torque and high-speed + mileage tend to elicit regular maintenance on these things. I think most NuVinci's on non-electric bikes would never encounter these problems.
Perhaps there is a reason why R&M spec'd a Derailleur on their Grant Touring model. It's far easier to get any derailleur fixed at any bike shop compared to an IGH when you're touring.
That Charger GX with dual batteries +Supermoto-X tires would be wonderful.

 

[BurbManDan]

I am surprised that you went with NuVinci instead of Rohloff. A high-miler such as yourself should go for a Rohloff...

Yeah, what I really wanted was a Rohloff with the Gates belt. Reference my post. I concluded that the low maintenance and long lifespan of the belt would be worth the risk of the hub. The reliability on the NuVinci hub was a big concern for me, but was allayed by the warranty and numerous assurances that the N380 is bigger, better, stronger, more reliable than the N360, and built specifically for application on 350W mid-drive electric bikes. I'm still hoping that this failure is just a fluke, not indicative of a design flaw or inadequate specifications.

If I wind up with repeated failures, it's possible I'll have no choice but to upgrade to a Rohloff. Sadly though, apparently the Charger frame does not have proper chainline to accommodate a Rohloff with a belt... And for the $6k price of the bike, I'm not about to do anything that would void the warranty!

 

[BurbManDan]

...Perhaps there is a reason why R&M spec'd a Derailleur on their Grant Touring model. It's far easier to get any derailleur fixed at any bike shop compared to an IGH when you're touring...

I think this has more to do with efficiency which will greatly impact range and your point about parts availability in the middle of nowhere. With the same batteries on my chain drive Felt NINEe 20 setup like the Charger Grand Touring model, I achieved over 15% less battery consumption over the same route and speed. Granted, it is significantly lighter, but I think the efficiency difference is due mostly to losses in the belt drive and IGH. I bought the dual battery model because I wanted to have significant extra battery capacity for my commute (36mi each way). Over that first week of commuting, I ran mostly on Turbo mode, usually cruising around 27mph, and had an estimated 10 miles range remaining on the uphill direction of my commute. This morning with the same two batteries on the Felt, I had 18 miles estimated range remaining.

 

[BurbManDan]

Spoke to the head technician at the dealer last night... I'm becoming deeply concerned about their ability to work on the bike, as he believes it might be a problem in the motor I proposed, for the fourth time now, that a wheel swap with one of their other R&M Nuvinci bikes would definitively determine whether the problem is solely in the hub, and then the warranty resolution could at least be started.

As is, three days have passed, and they still don't have a diagnosis, and from what their tech was saying, I'm concerned he is going to remove the motor from the bike, believing he can take it apart to service it! Wondering if there is any way I can contact R&M directly to reach out to the shop with some assistance/guidance?

 

[BurbManDan]

So earlier today I had submitted the following on the contact form on R&M's website:

Greetings, I own a one week old Charger GT nuvinci HS, S/N WXYX. It is currently at the dealer where I purchased it, because there is a clunking sound when pedaling coming from the Nuvinci hub. The dealer is struggling to diagnose it. It is apparent their technician is not experienced on Bosch powered bikes. I am concerned they are going to remove the motor, or other unnecessary work that will lead to additional problems. I propose that the best resolution would be a wheel swap to replace the failed Nuvinci hub.

Please, can you offer them some guidance:
<Shop Name, Address, Phone>​

I don't know if there is any relation to my web feedback, but I just heard back from the shop. They have confirmed that the problem is the hub , and will work with R&M for warranty support.

At least the process is now moving forward.

 

[Over50]

Picked up my Charger HS Nuvinci one week (350mi) ago, and the Nuvinci hasn't survived the first week. While accelerating up a hill, there was a loud sharp pop from the drivetrain, similar to the sound of a chain hopping a tooth, and there was a similar slip of the pedals. After that, there is a regular clunking under any torque, most pronounced at lower gear ratio. Occurs whether the motor is on or off, but is louder under higher torque...

I hit 1,000 miles today on my Charger and I had a scare similar to what you describe. I stopped for a red light and was perhaps distracted so I didn't go up in gear range. I was almost maxed out on the high end and in Tour mode. When I started up with a lot of resistance I heard a loud pop followed by the sound of something falling (or so I thought). The second sound was like something might have broken off (and might have been my imagination) - both noises sounded like they were from the motor/crank area and not from the hub. I expected the worst and I was just headed out of a safer area into a less safe urban neighborhood (at 6 a.m.). But I pedaled on and there seemed to be nothing wrong - the bike was behaving exactly as it had prior to the pop. I made it to work and just made the return trip (16.5 miles) and no troubles - the bike seems fine. I inspected the belt and crank area and I see nothing amiss. Sure did throw a scare into me though and it reminded me to go to a lower gear range when I have to stop.

 

[Chris Nolte]

I hit 1,000 miles today on my Charger and I had a scare similar to what you describe. I stopped for a red light and was perhaps distracted so I didn't go up in gear range. I was almost maxed out on the high end and in Tour mode. When I started up with a lot of resistance I heard a loud pop followed by the sound of something falling (or so I thought). The second sound was like something might have broken off (and might have been my imagination) - both noises sounded like they were from the motor/crank area and not from the hub. I expected the worst and I was just headed out of a safer area into a less safe urban neighborhood (at 6 a.m.). But I pedaled on and there seemed to be nothing wrong - the bike was behaving exactly as it had prior to the pop. I made it to work and just made the return trip (16.5 miles) and no troubles - the bike seems fine. I inspected the belt and crank area and I see nothing amiss. Sure did throw a scare into me though and it reminded me to go to a lower gear range when I have to stop.

I would check your belt tension. If it's a little loose you could of skipped a tooth. There is a phone app you can use to check the tension based on pitch.

 

[BurbManDan]

Belt tension was my first thought when I heard the pop, and IMHO my belt seemed loose, but I did not see consistent enough results from the phone app to be confident in it. I did tension the belt slightly, just to take up play. I'll wind up ordering a proper tensioning meter because the belt tension is apparently very significant to wear on the belt itself, the cogs and bearings in the motor and hub, and maximizing their life is significant because they are not cheap!

The change in belt tension did not result in any change in behavior from the hub. The clunking was very noticeable under any reasonably hard peddling, and very pronounced from low speeds going uphill on Sport / Turbo settings... I think if the belt were skipping enough to produce the clunking sounds I heard, it would likely tear up the belt and cogs in pretty short order, and wind up being obvious based on damage to the belt.

 

[BurbManDan]

...I was almost maxed out on the high end and in Tour mode. When I started up with a lot of resistance I heard a loud pop...

I've been riding only in Turbo mode. When my first "pop" occurred, I was climbing a slight incline in the middle of the gear range. Between the bike in Turbo mode and me peddling hard, it was subject to considerable torque. After that, the clunking was always present, but most noticeable uphill, at lower gear ranges, when accelerating. More power only makes it more pronounced, but it is quite noticeable even with the motor off.

 

[Over50]

I would check your belt tension. If it's a little loose you could of skipped a tooth. There is a phone app you can use to check the tension based on pitch.

My belt did feel a bit looser than I remembered. Perhaps when they did the brake job they changed the tension. I'll did out my cricket tester this weekend and see what it is measuring. Do you happen to know what the proper tension should be for my bike? I will also try to find it at the Gates website.

 

[Over50]

My belt did feel a bit looser than I remembered. Perhaps when they did the brake job they changed the tension. I'll did out my cricket tester this weekend and see what it is measuring. Do you happen to know what the proper tension should be for my bike? I will also try to find it at the Gates website.

I couldn't find anything more specific than 28-40 lbs for an IGH (searched for Gates CDX belt tension). The tech update at Gates matches what is shown in this video:

I was measuring 25-35 lbs across about 6 measurements with my krikit tester but about 4 were towards the low end (25). So I think the belt is a bit loose. I'm going to try to adjust and add 5 lbs or so to the tension. Also on a thorough inspection I see no broken teeth but there is a bit of wear on the inside edge of the belt - pretty consistent all the way around. Probably normal.

 

[BurbManDan]

Just visually, my belt was not this high tension from the factory. BTW, that is a good video on how those tensionometers function, though I'm not convinced they are the most accurate / repeatable. I've seen some that appear to be based on a hanging weight and deflection based measure, which seems much for repeatable. Then there is the Park Tool BDT-2, which also looks at alignment.

And I may have been premature in assuming the shop is moving forward. I called them for an update and spoke to the junior tech tonight, who found the master tech's notes, where he indicated the need to contact R&M, but no indication that that had been done...

I'll go pick up the bike Sat morning, and have a heart to heart talk with the owner about customer service.

 

[BurbManDan]

Picked the bike up. They replaced the shifter cable which frayed when they removed the rear wheel. It's not adjusted properly, but I'm more competent to correct that than they are...

Sadly, I crashed while out on test ride, thinking it was odd that the tires lost traction in a moderate speed corner. Turns out the shop had shined them up with Armor All (or something equivalent that left a slick film), which is dangerous, and is why I'd never recommend it be used on bike tires... Only a minor scape on the rear rack, and the bar end, and my road rash will heal. I was a bit too upset to go back in and confront the shop, and it will be difficult working with them in the future, but there are no other options for warranty support.

 

[BurbManDan]

I've adjusted the shifter cable to take up the excessive slack, and while at it, I made this video where you can hear the clunking from the hub. The clunking is almost drowned out by the motor because of where I was holding the camera. Probably should have just turned the motor off...

Bike has 390 miles from the first week, and spent the whole second week sitting in the shop... Since the bike shop took four days to diagnose and contact R&M, it'll be next week at soonest before they receive a replacement wheel. I don't think there is any danger with riding the bike with the hub making noise, so I'll resume using it for my commute.

 

[BurbManDan]

Yay, smooth silence again! The replacement wheel arrived on Wednesday. I was not able to get over to the dealer until this morning due to my commuting schedule. Further since the dealer indicated they would not be able to swap the wheel while I waited, suggesting I would have to leave the bike, I did the work myself. I took in the bare wheel and swapped, having removed the tire, sensor magnet, sprocket, disc brake and Nuvinci shifter interface. Not much work really, and good to help better understand the hub. Ironically, the hardest thing was breaking the bead on the tires... GOOD GRIEF - these tires seat onto the rims like motorcycle tires and require a massive squeeze to let go of the rim.

I had hoped the dealer would be able to do a software update to correct a dual-battery charging issue (stops charging with both batteries on bike at about ~65%), but they cannot locate their computer, cable, software, whatever... They said it must be packed somewhere still after their move to their new location (about 6 months ago). This is not confidence inspiring since it indicates they obviously don't do much Bosch servicing. Can anyone give me an idea how frequently or regularly updates come available, or is my only avenue depending on this dealer?

 

[BurbManDan]

About 8 days ago, the dealer was finally able to upgrade the software, which remedied the trouble charging both batteries fully. Although the dealer has certainly had growing pains, they seem to be staffing up, bought a computer, and are striving to figure out what they're doing... Hardly praise, but they are headed in the right direction.

Now I have a question for those who might have some insider knowledge of the Bosch programming, since I am sure my dealer isn't going to know what I'm talking about. I have made some comparisons between riding my Felt NINEe 20 and the Charger. On the Felt, I can cover my commute consistently at exactly 1h30m in turbo mode, including a stop to swap batteries. On the Charger, it takes me 1h35m. The distance reported is also about 1.5 mi less on the Charger. My conclusion based on this was that the wheel circumference was set slightly higher on the Charger, resulting in a shorter trip distance, and slightly lower cruising speed, since the power begins to clips out at about 27.5 mph. Naturally, I began setting the wheel circumference down in increments of about 20 to see if I could normalize the distance and times between the two bikes...

However, on the Charger, as I dialed the wheel circumference down, my trip times stayed *exactly* the same, and the speed at which the assist begins to clip began to decrease, so that power was starting clip under 26 mph! One explanation of this would be if the Bosch controller has a hard coded minimum wheel circumference, or some other factory or dealer set limit. This would make sense to prevent people from reducing the wheel circumference to some arbitrary value (like half actual, to effectively double the speed of the bike, for example.) However, I cannot make the speed of the bike accurate without reducing the assist at the higher speeds because I seem to be hitting some sort of hard-coded limit. Should the dealer be able to adjust this? What should I ask them to adjust? (please be specific because they are likely going to have to call for tech support) Can anyone confirm if what I'm seeing makes sense, or am I just doing something wrong?