Keeping it Legal for the Common Good, Staying Within the Legal Classes

[AHicks]

Then there are the towns of Gay and Christmas on the Lake Superior coast.....

Trolls live under the bridge.....

 

[Djangodog]

Another serious topic gone to “Hell”.

 

[Dave Rocks]

So what? Words on the internet.

 

[Avg_Joe]

Reminds me of an incident I experienced. In the northern part of the lower and most of the UP, some (not all) of Michigan's snowmobile trails are open to about anything able to navigate deep snow. This includes off road trucks, which the snowmobilers just despise, because these trucks always seem to do their level best to tear up trail grooming paid for by the snowmobilers (24" deep ruts everywhere they go).

We used to go up to Grayling for annual summer training in the Ohio Army National Guard; and go a few other times a year for 3-4 day training. We would constantly encounter ATV, snowmobile, 4WD on the trails within the boundaries of Camp Grayling. Thankfully, we never had a serious issue with them as the M113 armored personnel carriers out in front of us in our M48A5 main battle tanks would look at the trespassers as speed bumps. I always made a point of swinging the 105mm main gun at them for shits and giggles, if the loader was out of the turret he'd swing his 7.62mm M60 machine gun at them too.

Pulling back on topic, whether it is ebike, regular bike, atv, snowmobile, 4x4 - there's always a percentage who just disregard all laws and common sense, as above. I've settled on being a good steward, an ambassador; yet I fully expect there will be additional crackdowns/regulations on ebikes, I just hope I don't contribute to it. Whether we're wild west or nanny state, a percentage of our population is composed of entitled jerks who will disregard all of this because.... rights. And those of us stoopid enough to think laws and courtesy apply to us will suffer for it.

 

[Kayakguy]

I don't like to judge, but I've read data over the years indicating that though SOME, perhaps even MANY, drivers of large trucks (and SUVs) have a legitimate need for them, MOST do not. True, I never know which group an indivudual fits into, but, most of the time, it's pretty safe to guess .

One clue re big trucks is in the truck bed; if it shows no scratches nor has ever seen anything dirty (like dirt, or sand & gravel, or firewood) it's a pretty good sign that the vehicle is for show, not utility. Reminds me of a kid (19 y.o. or so) puffing about his big 4x4 truck because it "made him feel like a man."

 

[Solarcabin]

You already know my views after our long and sometimes heated debates so I will just state this again:

I think Ebikes should not be rode by kids under 16 and faster ebikes are for adults only with training.

The ebike class rating and motor rating is worthless IMO and we should go to a speed limit system used for any other vehicles and for bike paths and roads.

States like mine with lots of rural and country roads and off road riding don't need the same rules for ebikes the city dwellers do.

Futility of Motor Power Ratings​

Grin Technologies

ebikes.ca

 

[Kayakguy]

Then there are the towns of Gay and Christmas on the Lake Superior coast.....

Trolls live under the bridge.....

A real, very large troll lives under the north end of the Aurora bridge in Seattle. It has a real (but dead) VW bug clutched in one hand.

 

[J.R.]

You already know my views after our long and sometimes heated debates so I will just state this again:

I think Ebikes should not be rode by kids under 16 and faster ebikes are for adults only with training.

The ebike class rating and motor rating is worthless IMO and we should go to a speed limit system used for any other vehicles and for bike paths and roads.

States like mine with lots of rural and country roads and off road riding don't need the same rules for ebikes the city dwellers do.

Futility of Motor Power Ratings​

Grin Technologies

ebikes.ca

Regulatory agencies, rangers and citizen advisory boards would just ban all ebikes without classes and limits on power.

I am all for motorcycles, light and heavy, big and powerful and mini. On bike paths, trails, multi use paths and bike lanes the authorities have 2 options, classes or ban ebikes. I don't say that because of what you like and own. I have owned MC's my whole life and still do. I say that after 2 years of work opening up trails for ebikes.

There isn't the money to enforce speeds or alter the infrastructure and environment to allow anything over a 20 mph ebike. The trails are designed for 15 mph. My county has 3 fulltime rangers for greater than 5000 acres of county forest land and more than 200 miles of trails. Average pay is 86 grand plus at least another 86k for benefits and pension. We are a rural farm county. Taxpayers given the choice to pay for speed enforcement or ban, they'd choose a ban.

One of the biggest hurdles is insurance for these trials and paths. In most instances they are use at your own risk venues. As long as the authorities take reasonable precautions to keep people safe they can't be sued. The insurance is fairly cheap due to low risk. I've been told this is one of the reasons for Class 1 only regs on trails. With higher risk the cost goes up. The costs to include all would be staggering. Speed limits work on roadways due to enforcement. In order to have enforcement there has to be registration and licensing for penalties to be assessed. And in order to keep the states or counties from being sued for injury, the rider will be forced to have insurance. In order for insurance to be reasonable the standards for infrastructure will be raised.

No, before speed limits and enforcement happens, we will all be banned. The money isn't there! And I sure don't want to pay for insurance and registration for my ebike.

 

[Solarcabin]

No, before speed limits and enforcement happens, we will all be banned. The money isn't there! And I sure don't want to pay for insurance and registration for my ebike.

I haven't needed training wheels since I was 5 but if you do that is fine.

Just don't try to enforce your silly city ebike rules on people in rural areas.

I won't be drawn in to your circle jerk.

 

[fooferdoggie]

I

Just don't try to enforce your silly city ebike rules on people in rural areas.

coming from the guy that flogs the e bike classes so many times.

 

[J.R.]

I haven't needed training wheels since I was 5 but if you do that is fine.

Just don't try to enforce your silly city ebike rules on people in rural areas.

You don't comprehend the written word. I don't want enforcement, you do as you stated. Speed limits are enforcement. My township, as big as many counties in some places doesn't have a traffic signal, streetlight, retail establishment or a police force. No county force either. Noted above "rural farm community".

Insufferable.

 

[AHicks]

Regulatory agencies, rangers and citizen advisory boards would just ban all ebikes without classes and limits on power.

I am all for motorcycles, light and heavy, big and powerful and mini. On bike paths, trails, multi use paths and bike lanes the authorities have 2 options, classes or ban ebikes. I don't say that because of what you like and own. I have owned MC's my whole life and still do. I say that after 2 years of work opening up trails for ebikes.

There isn't the money to enforce speeds or alter the infrastructure and environment to allow anything over a 20 mph ebike. The trails are designed for 15 mph. My county has 3 fulltime rangers for greater than 5000 acres of county forest land and more than 200 miles of trails. Average pay is 86 grand plus at least another 86k for benefits and pension. We are a rural farm county. Taxpayers given the choice to pay for speed enforcement or ban, they'd choose a ban.

One of the biggest hurdles is insurance for these trials and paths. In most instances they are use at your own risk venues. As long as the authorities take reasonable precautions to keep people safe they can't be sued. The insurance is fairly cheap due to low risk. I've been told this is one of the reasons for Class 1 only regs on trails. With higher risk the cost goes up. The costs to include all would be staggering. Speed limits work on roadways due to enforcement. In order to have enforcement there has to be registration and licensing for penalties to be assessed. And in order to keep the states or counties from being sued for injury, the rider will be forced to have insurance. In order for insurance to be reasonable the standards for infrastructure will be raised.

No, before speed limits and enforcement happens, we will all be banned. The money isn't there! And I sure don't want to pay for insurance and registration for my ebike.

On the bold, if that were true, if there were no other options, please explain how riders in Florida can ride ANY class e-bike anywhere they can ride an analog bike.

I appreciate you getting involved with the tedious crap involved with legalizing e-bikes attempts, but I would hope you don't try pushing the all or nothing option when speaking for all of us. Clearly, it's not that black and white, and just as clearly, there ARE other options....

 

[J.R.]

On the bold, if that were true, if there were no other options, please explain how riders in Florida can ride ANY class e-bike anywhere they can ride an analog bike.

I appreciate you getting involved with the tedious crap involved with legalizing e-bikes attempts, but I would hope you don't try pushing the all or nothing option when speaking for all of us. Clearly, it's not that black and white, and just as clearly, there ARE other options....

Florida is a far wealthier state than many. The infrastructure is in place, where poorer states like PA, W.VA, KY, OH and the like didn't develope finished parks and trails when they maybe should. Money is always an issie. Central PA isn't the snowbird capital or a tourist destination like most of FL is. When doing research on the issue, I compiled a list of state budgets and how the money was spent on parks, trails and paths.

The only thing we advocated for was the acceptance of ebikes that were legal in the state, class 1 and 2. We got class 1 and the state put one more condition on those class 1, they limit weight to 75 pounds.

 

[DaveMatthews]

Florida is a far wealthier state than many. The infrastructure is in place, where poorer states like PA, W.VA, KY, OH and the like didn't develope finished parks and trails when they maybe should. Money is always an issie. Central PA isn't the snowbird capital or a tourist destination like most of FL is. When doing research on the issue, I compiled a list of state budgets and how the money was spent on parks, trails and paths.

The only thing we advocated for was the acceptance of ebikes that were legal in the state, class 1 and 2. We got class 1 and the state put one more condition on those class 1, they limit weight to 75 pounds.

I never understood the weight of the bike being an issue. The weight of the rider can tip the scales on a lighter bike anyway.

 

[Djangodog]

Regulatory agencies, rangers and citizen advisory boards would just ban all ebikes without classes and limits on power.

I am all for motorcycles, light and heavy, big and powerful and mini. On bike paths, trails, multi use paths and bike lanes the authorities have 2 options, classes or ban ebikes. I don't say that because of what you like and own. I have owned MC's my whole life and still do. I say that after 2 years of work opening up trails for ebikes.

There isn't the money to enforce speeds or alter the infrastructure and environment to allow anything over a 20 mph ebike. The trails are designed for 15 mph. My county has 3 fulltime rangers for greater than 5000 acres of county forest land and more than 200 miles of trails. Average pay is 86 grand plus at least another 86k for benefits and pension. We are a rural farm county. Taxpayers given the choice to pay for speed enforcement or ban, they'd choose a ban.

One of the biggest hurdles is insurance for these trials and paths. In most instances they are use at your own risk venues. As long as the authorities take reasonable precautions to keep people safe they can't be sued. The insurance is fairly cheap due to low risk. I've been told this is one of the reasons for Class 1 only regs on trails. With higher risk the cost goes up. The costs to include all would be staggering. Speed limits work on roadways due to enforcement. In order to have enforcement there has to be registration and licensing for penalties to be assessed. And in order to keep the states or counties from being sued for injury, the rider will be forced to have insurance. In order for insurance to be reasonable the standards for infrastructure will be raised.

No, before speed limits and enforcement happens, we will all be banned. The money isn't there! And I sure don't want to pay for insurance and registration for my ebike.

I agree with everything that you said. That was part of the reason for starting this thread. I have seen posts where people openly brag about doing as they like simply because they have determined that the laws are not reasonable in their mind. My concern being that those in authority can ban us more easily than regulate us.

I think that there may be some misconceptions. Public paths and multi-use are a completely different animal than multi-use trails that allow motorized vehicles, public streets or dirt and logging roads.

I would never say that a class 3 should be kept off of public roads and appropriate trails. I would also think that unlimited modes are probably fine any place that a motorized vehicle is allowed.

I think that what J.R. was pointing out is that the e-bike community really has no leverage when it comes to privileges. Bike paths and bike lanes existed for bicycles. That said, if someone is tooling along at 15 mph while riding a class 2 or class 3 on a bike path or in a bike lane, they are pretty unlikely to be hassled by anyone.

It‘a a lot like speeding in your car. You may feel that you are driving at an appropriate speed and that the law is unreasonable, but if you get caught doing it, making that argument will get you nowhere.

 

[J.R.]

I never understood the weight of the bike being an issue. The weight of the rider can tip the scales on a lighter bike anyway.

Yeah, it was silly to us. These agencies are stuck with trying to please everyone. Environmental groups claim heavy bikes damage trails; parents and grandparents worry about a heavy bike hitting a kid, so the result is compromise. 75 probably covers the vast majority of class 1 bikes.

 

[AHicks]

Florida is a far wealthier state than many. The infrastructure is in place, where poorer states like PA, W.VA, KY, OH and the like didn't develope finished parks and trails when they maybe should. Money is always an issie. Central PA isn't the snowbird capital or a tourist destination like most of FL is. When doing research on the issue, I compiled a list of state budgets and how the money was spent on parks, trails and paths.

The only thing we advocated for was the acceptance of ebikes that were legal in the state, class 1 and 2. We got class 1 and the state put one more condition on those class 1, they limit weight to 75 pounds.

Don't kid yourself about the riding infrastructure in Florida. We still have PLENTY of "bike paths" that are separated from traffic by nothing more than a white line. I don't have the research to back me at the moment, but I think it pretty safe to say we'll have twice as many people run over on any given day as PA due to unsafe conditions (infrastructure).

IMHO, existing infrastructure is NOT a good reference point when considering e-bike rules. Nor is the state budget or any of the other excuses you list. Those are SEPARATE issues, and need to be dealt with separately.

Rules for e-bike usage should be a stand alone issue. Mixing those with the other crap you mention just confuses the issue...

 

[J.R.]

I agree with everything that you said. That was part of the reason for starting this thread. I have seen posts where people openly brag about doing as they like simply because they have determined that the laws are not reasonable in their mind. My concern being that those in authority can ban us more easily than regulate us.

I think that there may be some misconceptions. Public paths and multi-use are a completely different animal than multi-use trails that allow motorized vehicles, public streets or dirt and logging roads.

I would never say that a class 3 should be kept off of public roads and appropriate trails. I would also think that unlimited modes are probably fine any place that a motorized vehicle is allowed.

I think that what J.R. was pointing out is that the e-bike community really has no leverage when it comes to privileges. Bike paths and bike lanes existed for bicycles. That said, if someone is tooling along at 15 mph while riding a class 2 or class 3 on a bike path or in a bike lane, they are pretty unlikely to be hassled by anyone.

It‘a a lot like speeding in your car. You may feel that you are driving at an appropriate speed and that the law is unreasonable, but if you get caught doing it, making that argument will get you nowhere.

It is cheap and easy to ban. Under a ban, any ebike is illegal and subject to a criminal charge of trespassing. My county it's an $880 fine. Some states confiscate the bike if it's a non compliant vehicle. They'd make money with a ban.

Pennsylvania is one of the most rural states in the country. Top 10 I believe. People think of Philly. Philly is more a part of NJ and NYC. The rest is pretty rural. People are surprised to know of all the places in PA that don't have police departments. Very low crime outside of cities. People here don't want or need police departments. And they aren't willing to pay for something not needed. Twisty rural 2 lane roads are often posted the max 55 mph. You can't drive that fast, but they don't need to enforce it that way.

I could ride any bike I want on the trails and probably wouldn't have any issues. Most people want to obey the law, that's why we wanted the ban lifted.

 

[Djangodog]

Yeah, it was silly to us. These agencies are stuck with trying to please everyone. Environmental groups claim heavy bikes damage trails; parents and grandparents worry about a heavy bike hitting a kid, so the result is compromise. 75 probably covers the vast majority of class 1 bikes.

I don’t want to get too sidetracked with the details, but I do understand that regulators have to set limits somewhere. The same thing happened with the FAA regarding ultralight aircraft, (power, weight and fuel capacity). Some argued that the weight limit meant that the aircraft would be less heavily built, (dangerous), and that less power reduces climb rate making the aircraft more dangerous as well. The thing is that you don’t really want to make those points too loudly because the FAA might agree that those underpowered and lightly built aircraft are not airworthy, so poof, no more ultralight aircraft.

Regarding operator vs vehicle weight. A heavy person tends to be a pliable mass where the vehicle is solid. The combined mass of heavy person and heavy bike is more dangerous than that same heavy person on a lightweight bike.

 

[J.R.]

Nor is the state budget or any of the other excuses you list

You say that as if it were fact. Similar to me "pushing" something. It's always about the money. We would go to a public meeting and listen to all the testimony. Then I'd have to prepare a rebuttal for the next meeting. Nothing I wrote is an excuse. These are the issues and the blueprint of testimony in every state where I could talk to other advocates. What I wrote are just some of the issues debated.

I have no reason to mislead anyone here, I have nothing to gain. For anyone wishing to understand, attend a few meetings where regulations are discussed. It's an eye opener and you just might make a difference.