Isn't a 28mph Bosch the drive we really want?

[Ravi Kempaiah]

1. Torque: Regarding the 85Nm of torque, most derailleur systems and IGH (internally Geared Hubs) aren't rated for more than 60Nm and most systems are already pushing the limits. They want to build systems that are compatible with a variety of components so bike brands have less limitations when selecting components. Maybe as the market grows overall they will make ebike specific components, but I still feel this could be a limiting strategy.

2. Throttle: I don't feel that Bosch will ever bring a throttle to the US, it goes against their philosophy. They even left the walk button disabled in the US and you can't enable it, even with the programming software which we have. There are several reasons why they did this, but I feel part of the concern is that someone will hack it into a throttle.



Haibike FS RS & Haibike in the US: During our convo with the folks at Haibike at Eurobike we we're really pushing to bring in the FS RS, but this was more Bosch's decision then theirs. Bosch doesn't want mountain bikes with the speed system on it, as the legislation is still unclear and they are concerned about liability issues. I know many people that use FS bikes strictly on the street, but the concern is for those that will use them on the trails. I don't want to get hijack this thread with the trail controversy, but many brands are holding back due to this, including some large brands like Trek and Cannondale. Trek had plans of releasing their Powerfly+ this year, but around the same time of their release there was a lot of negative publicity around EMTB's so they decided to hold off this year in the US.

Focus Thron & Focus in the US: The Focus Thron is an amazing bike and in my opinion the only quality electric mountain bike with a speed motor to be available in the US next year. I rode it last month and I was thoroughly impressed, it's super smooth, it shifts well, plenty of suspension travel and it has all the power you need. We'll be getting our first shipment early next year and there has been a lot of excitement over this bike along with the rest of the Focus and Kalkhoff lineup which we'll be releasing on our website in late October. Regarding the limited supply, that will change next year, we have a lot of bikes on order and the US strategy for Focus and Kalkhoff will be changing significantly for 2015, they have added several new staff dedicated to the ebike market and we have planned a great lineup of bikes for next year. I wouldn't get too concerned that they weren't at Interbike, Trek and Specialized didn't have a booth there either, there has been a trend to do more independent shows rather than deal with all the difficulties of dealing with the convention center. Focus and Kalkhoff had there show in Germany and flew me along with two other US dealers to the show and we worked with them to come up with a strategy for the US. Frankly as a retailer I think this strategy works quite well, it's much more intimate and allows more time for helpful conversations.

When I spoke to Christina Puello (Haibike USA) at the Interbike, I was told there is no immediate plan to launch FS RS in the US.

Torque:
I think there might be a confusion regarding Torque values and the speed. They are not related. More torque doesn't mean more speed.
Also, a fit 30 something can put out 90Nm of torque easily. Elite athletes can maintain 100+ Nm. Couple of months back, I measured the torque values in a kinesiology lab and my right leg could do 90Nm (my left leg with ACL surgery could do upto 60Nm something)
It is still unclear if the Bosch produces 60Nm at the crank or the derailleur.
60Nm is not a huge value and it is the PEAK output. Dyno graph is a much more reliable source of info this case. How smooth the curve is over different RPM's need to be taken into account as well.

Top of the line Optibikes (the one used in pike's peak challenge), 48V 750W BBS-02 and few other systems can deliver more than 90Nm peak.

I also spent fair amount of time at the KMC and Shimano booths at the Interbike and some of their chains/components are designed for E-bikes and they can easily handle the delivery of extra torque. If its ridden at 85Nm, ALL THE TIME, it will wear out quicker but that's not going to happen under normal circumstances.

So torque limitation is not a factor at all. Also, it shouldn't be a sole criteria for choosing the bike. It's like saying I am going to marry that girl because she has bigg boobies..!! doesn't mean anything.
Stromer ST2 has only ~40Nm but it was a very impressive bike and part of the reason is the refinement of the system. Torque+ Motor power + efficient batter/BMS + design , this overall refinement of the system is critical IMHO.

IGH:

IGH's like Rohloff's are designed for a lot of Torque. Rohloff's have some good reputation and I captured this screenshot from their website.
At 575W, the torque varies between 20Nm to 200Nm. Rohloff's in Optibike R11 should be able to handle this 200Nm PEAK torque.


Shimano nexus or Alfine may not be designed with the same intention of off-road use, so torque specs on them could vary.

Throttle:

Bosch is a EU company and it is illegal to have throttle in E-bikes in EU. I am sure it is part of the big reason. US market is just importing bikes from EU and the same no-throttle rule applies here as well. The throttles that are used in Easy Motion and Izip bikes are add-ons at the factory and it costs $10 to add this feature. Australian/EU Easy Motion bikes don't have throttle.

Comparable bikes to Focus Thron Impulse.

I have been eyeing this Focus Throm Impulse for sometime and I think it is a very good bike.
I have found a better alternative. It is called M1 Spitzing. Truly outstanding in terms of power delivery.
48V, 880Wh battery and the motor produces 120Nm of torque. Very impressive ride.
The Cost is very comparable to Focus Thron Speed at $7K. The race pedelec costs more but the speed pedelec is at 7K.

I know that @Electric Bike Specialists , @Crazy Lenny Ebikes and two more Californian dealers will be carrying them.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Rusty,

You have described an Optibike with a PAS option... only if it were true.

Actually, the Optibike Pioneer has PAS and 20+ operation, but I don't think it has the power and torque you are looking for, or range.

I think the Focus Thron Impulse 2 may have your specs.

Optibike R8 or R11 with a smooth PAS torque sensor would be a killer bike.
Dan, have you had a chance to speak to Jim about this issue?

 

[Rusty]

When I spoke to Christina Puello (Haibike USA) at the Interbike, I was told there is no immediate plan to launch FS RS in the US.

Torque:
I think there might be a confusion regarding Torque values and the speed. They are not related. More torque doesn't mean more speed.
Also, a fit 30 something can put out 90Nm of torque easily. Elite athletes can maintain 100+ Nm. Couple of months back, I measured the torque values in a kinesiology lab and my right leg could do 90Nm (my left leg with ACL surgery could do upto 60Nm something)
It is still unclear if the Bosch produces 60Nm at the crank or the derailleur.
60Nm is not a huge value and it is the PEAK output. Dyno graph is a much more reliable source of info this case. How smooth the curve is over different RPM's need to be taken into account as well.

Top of the line Optibikes (the one used in pike's peak challenge), 48V 750W BBS-02 and few other systems can deliver more than 90Nm peak.

I also spent fair amount of time at the KMC and Shimano booths at the Interbike and some of their chains/components are designed for E-bikes and they can easily handle the delivery of extra torque. If its ridden at 85Nm, ALL THE TIME, it will wear out quicker but that's not going to happen under normal circumstances.

So torque limitation is not a factor at all. Also, it shouldn't be a sole criteria for choosing the bike. It's like saying I am going to marry that girl because she has bigg boobies..!! doesn't mean anything.
Stromer ST2 has only ~40Nm but it was a very impressive bike and part of the reason is the refinement of the system. Torque+ Motor power + efficient batter/BMS + design , this overall refinement of the system is critical IMHO.

IGH:

IGH's like Rohloff's are designed for a lot of Torque. Rohloff's have some good reputation and I captured this screenshot from their website.
At 575W, the torque varies between 20Nm to 200Nm. Rohloff's in Optibike R11 should be able to handle this 200Nm PEAK torque.
View attachment 1728

Shimano nexus or Alfine may not be designed with the same intention of off-road use, so torque specs on them could vary.

Throttle:

Bosch is a EU company and it is illegal to have throttle in E-bikes in EU. I am sure it is part of the big reason. US market is just importing bikes from EU and the same no-throttle rule applies here as well. The throttles that are used in Easy Motion and Izip bikes are add-ons at the factory and it costs $10 to add this feature. Australian/EU Easy Motion bikes don't have throttle.

Comparable bikes to Focus Thron Impulse.

I have been eyeing this Focus Throm Impulse for sometime and I think it is a very good bike.
I have found a better alternative. It is called M1 Spitzing. Truly outstanding in terms of power delivery.
48V, 880Wh battery and the motor produces 120Nm of torque. Very impressive ride.
The Cost is very comparable to Focus Thron Speed at $7K. The race pedelec costs more but the speed pedelec is at 7K.

I know that @Electric Bike Specialists , @Crazy Lenny Ebikes and two more Californian dealers will be carrying them.

Great info, Ravi ! That Spitzing looks like a killer bike, does it have a throttle??

Also, regarding the mtb access thing, you just know that e-bikes are the future, the mfgrs are on board, and the advocacy groups (against ebikes) are just putting in a last gasp, all or nothing approach to try to stem the tide, before it sweeps them under. I would not let them scare me into any compromise at this point. Build the bikes the consumers want, keep them within the federal standards, and let the chips fall where they will.

 

[Chris Nolte]

When I spoke to Christina Puello (Haibike USA) at the Interbike, I was told there is no immediate plan to launch FS RS in the US.

Torque:
I think there might be a confusion regarding Torque values and the speed. They are not related. More torque doesn't mean more speed.
Also, a fit 30 something can put out 90Nm of torque easily. Elite athletes can maintain 100+ Nm. Couple of months back, I measured the torque values in a kinesiology lab and my right leg could do 90Nm (my left leg with ACL surgery could do upto 60Nm something)
It is still unclear if the Bosch produces 60Nm at the crank or the derailleur.
60Nm is not a huge value and it is the PEAK output. Dyno graph is a much more reliable source of info this case. How smooth the curve is over different RPM's need to be taken into account as well.

Top of the line Optibikes (the one used in pike's peak challenge), 48V 750W BBS-02 and few other systems can deliver more than 90Nm peak.

I also spent fair amount of time at the KMC and Shimano booths at the Interbike and some of their chains/components are designed for E-bikes and they can easily handle the delivery of extra torque. If its ridden at 85Nm, ALL THE TIME, it will wear out quicker but that's not going to happen under normal circumstances.

So torque limitation is not a factor at all. Also, it shouldn't be a sole criteria for choosing the bike. It's like saying I am going to marry that girl because she has bigg boobies..!! doesn't mean anything.
Stromer ST2 has only ~40Nm but it was a very impressive bike and part of the reason is the refinement of the system. Torque+ Motor power + efficient batter/BMS + design , this overall refinement of the system is critical IMHO.

IGH:

IGH's like Rohloff's are designed for a lot of Torque. Rohloff's have some good reputation and I captured this screenshot from their website.
At 575W, the torque varies between 20Nm to 200Nm. Rohloff's in Optibike R11 should be able to handle this 200Nm PEAK torque.
View attachment 1728

Shimano nexus or Alfine may not be designed with the same intention of off-road use, so torque specs on them could vary.

Throttle:

Bosch is a EU company and it is illegal to have throttle in E-bikes in EU. I am sure it is part of the big reason. US market is just importing bikes from EU and the same no-throttle rule applies here as well. The throttles that are used in Easy Motion and Izip bikes are add-ons at the factory and it costs $10 to add this feature. Australian/EU Easy Motion bikes don't have throttle.

Comparable bikes to Focus Thron Impulse.

I have been eyeing this Focus Throm Impulse for sometime and I think it is a very good bike.
I have found a better alternative. It is called M1 Spitzing. Truly outstanding in terms of power delivery.
48V, 880Wh battery and the motor produces 120Nm of torque. Very impressive ride.
The Cost is very comparable to Focus Thron Speed at $7K. The race pedelec costs more but the speed pedelec is at 7K.

I know that @Electric Bike Specialists , @Crazy Lenny Ebikes and two more Californian dealers will be carrying them.

Ravi - Did you read my post? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your reply looks like you didn't read my post. Maybe it was just a late night thing. I well aware that the FS RS will not be coming to the US, I said it in my post. Also, I didn't say that there aren't components that can handle 85Nm of torque, I just said there are a lot of components that aren't built for it. Bosch is looking to build a system compatible with the most amount of bikes and components possible, so making something that can only be used with ebike specific components is very limiting. I know someone at Shimano told you it's no problem, but from my experience it can be a big problem when you look to get warranty support. Speaking of chains, you should also look at Wipperman Connex chains, they are step above KMC for ebike and they also make hardened steel sprockets for the Bosch system which is really nice.

I otherwise agree with most of what you say above, the M1 Spitzing is a nice bike and it has great power delivery. If you're looking for a lot of raw power it's a great solution, it's kind of like the Optibike with pedal assist. I can assure you that the Focus Thron has a more refined feeling though and it has features like climb-assist, which is quite nice from my experience. I encourage you to come to my shop and try out the Thron when we get it, I think you might have an easier time comparing the two once you ride it. I'm still on the fence if I'm going to bring the M1 bike in, it's nice, but there are certain things that concern me about it. I had some conversations with them at Eurobike, but I still have concerns about the viability here and I don't really like their model for entering the US. I've had experience with brands with similar models and it doesn't always lend itself to the best customer experience. They might be different though.

Are you going to get a Spitzing?

 

[Rusty]

Ravi - Did you read my post? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your reply looks like you didn't read my post. Maybe it was just a late night thing. I well aware that the FS RS will not be coming to the US, I said it in my post. Also, I didn't say that there aren't components that can handle 85Nm of torque, I just said there are a lot of components that aren't built for it. Bosch is looking to build a system compatible with the most amount of bikes and components possible, so making something that can only be used with ebike specific components is very limiting. I know someone at Shimano told you it's no problem, but from my experience it can be a big problem when you look to get warranty support. Speaking of chains, you should also look at Wipperman Connex chains, they are step above KMC for ebike and they also make hardened steel sprockets for the Bosch system which is really nice.

I otherwise agree with most of what you say above, the M1 Spitzing is a nice bike and it has great power delivery. If you're looking for a lot of raw power it's a great solution, it's kind of like the Optibike with pedal assist. I can assure you that the Focus Thron has a more refined feeling though and it has features like climb-assist, which is quite nice from my experience. I encourage you to come to my shop and try out the Thron when we get it, I think you might have an easier time comparing the two once you ride it. I'm still on the fence if I'm going to bring the M1 bike in, it's nice, but there are certain things that concern me about it. I had some conversations with them at Eurobike, but I still have concerns about the viability here and I don't really like their model for entering the US. I've had experience with brands with similar models and it doesn't always lend itself to the best customer experience. They might be different though.

Are you going to get a Spitzing?

Yes Ravi, please get one!!

Chris, what is climb assist?

 

[Brambor]

is climb assist a walk mode?

 

[Chris Nolte]

Climb assist is a feature unique to the Impulse 2.0 motor.

From Focus' website "While the drive normally reduces the level of assistance it provides when pressure on the pedals drops, if Climb Assist is activated assistance is sustained for a moment to ensure constant uphill motion. Climb Assist can be activated or deactivated on the control panel. In addition, the Climb Assist level is individually adjustable."

I got to test it out in Germany and it's quite nice when you start getting winded at the top of a hill.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi - Did you read my post? I'm not trying to give you a hard time, but your reply looks like you didn't read my post. Maybe it was just a late night thing. I well aware that the FS RS will not be coming to the US, I said it in my post. Also, I didn't say that there aren't components that can handle 85Nm of torque, I just said there are a lot of components that aren't built for it. Bosch is looking to build a system compatible with the most amount of bikes and components possible, so making something that can only be used with ebike specific components is very limiting. I know someone at Shimano told you it's no problem, but from my experience it can be a big problem when you look to get warranty support. Speaking of chains, you should also look at Wipperman Connex chains, they are step above KMC for ebike and they also make hardened steel sprockets for the Bosch system which is really nice.

I otherwise agree with most of what you say above, the M1 Spitzing is a nice bike and it has great power delivery. If you're looking for a lot of raw power it's a great solution, it's kind of like the Optibike with pedal assist. I can assure you that the Focus Thron has a more refined feeling though and it has features like climb-assist, which is quite nice from my experience. I encourage you to come to my shop and try out the Thron when we get it, I think you might have an easier time comparing the two once you ride it. I'm still on the fence if I'm going to bring the M1 bike in, it's nice, but there are certain things that concern me about it. I had some conversations with them at Eurobike, but I still have concerns about the viability here and I don't really like their model for entering the US. I've had experience with brands with similar models and it doesn't always lend itself to the best customer experience. They might be different though.

Are you going to get a Spitzing?

Chris, I apologize, if the post showed arrogance in anyway. You're great guy but some of the things you mentioned in that post were factually wrong.
You are one of the better ebike dealers around and you could do better. My apologies anyway.

Haibike and Bosch:

Bosch is just a drive train manufacturer and they will work with MANY ebike companies to make ebikes of varied capability.
Grace has a 28mph speed pedelec (MX2 trail speed pedelec) and it's in the US.
To bring Haibike FS RS or not depends on the decision between Haibike /Accell/ Currie. This has nothing to do with Bosch as such. I just wanted to clarify that.

Bosch as a Proprietary system:

Bosch really wants to make a system that is adaptable to different bikes, this is QUESTIONABLE.
Right now, Bosch as a system is very expensive because, you need to design the whole frame around their system. All bikes that use Bosch, look very similar. Some of the EU companies call it Bosch syndrome. Proprietary motor, small front chain ring, power pack, internal routing ---> all of this rises the cost quite a bit and the plastic gears used in the motor or the bearings have to approved by Bosch before replacement (I don't know how well Magura is going to handle it in the US).

Shimano and KMC have large presence and every REI/ Erics/ peformance bike stores carry these things.

Spitzing Vs Thron:

I and Court reviewed this Spitzing, along with their technical director.
What I like? There is no bike right now in the market that can compete with Spitzing on a pound to pound basis, performance wise (57 Lbs, full carbon fiber, Magura Hydraulics, shift sensor, 48V, 18.3Ah battery...).
Reliability, we'll have to wait and see.
They have been very responsive to all emails. They were present at the Eurobike, Interbike, and also a small event that happened in NJ.
They really want to bring their bikes here and they have new way of shipping bikes to the US.
Flat $200/bike and the bike lands here in the US in 2 days.
I know the Haibike Superrace container got stuck in panama canal for 3 months and we couldn't test them out. What a bummer. Also, their online ordering system is quite unique.

Focus on the other hand, weren't available at any of the US shows and Scott Ritchoff (Focus' CEO for E-bikes) doesn't respond or isn't interested about E-bikes presence in the US.
Newwheel wanted to create a monopoly (remember the TED talk, create your own market, YES) by offering something unique and only they brought these bikes. Good for them.
But what's the point if people can't test ride them even at shows like Interbike?
Newwheel also brought in Felt, instead of dealing with Currie and bringing in Haibikes (Very good bikes though). This is their marketing decision and I have no qualms with that.

I like the Thron Impulse, from the specs, it's great. But I was blown away by the performance of Spitzing. For both me and Chandlee, it was our favorite at the Interbike show.
I have given my honest/critical feedback to M1 Sporttechnik's technical director about things like tire clearance, display, etc and they are going to change it. Will I purchase it? mmm..
Need to think on that. I would love to lease a Chevy Volt or leaf and extend my EV range to true 100+ miles. I have free charging at work

 

[Chris Nolte]

Thanks for your reply Ravi, it's all good.

 

[Rusty]

Chris, I apologize, if the post showed arrogance in anyway. You're great guy but some of the things you mentioned in that post were factually wrong.
You are one of the better ebike dealers around and you could do better. My apologies anyway.

Haibike and Bosch:

Bosch is just a drive train manufacturer and they will work with MANY ebike companies to make ebikes of varied capability.
Grace has a 28mph speed pedelec (MX2 trail speed pedelec) and it's in the US.
To bring Haibike FS RS or not depends on the decision between Haibike /Accell/ Currie. This has nothing to do with Bosch as such. I just wanted to clarify that.

Bosch as a Proprietary system:

Bosch really wants to make a system that is adaptable to different bikes, this is QUESTIONABLE.
Right now, Bosch as a system is very expensive because, you need to design the whole frame around their system. All bikes that use Bosch, look very similar. Some of the EU companies call it Bosch syndrome. Proprietary motor, small front chain ring, power pack, internal routing ---> all of this rises the cost quite a bit and the plastic gears used in the motor or the bearings have to approved by Bosch before replacement (I don't know how well Magura is going to handle it in the US).

Shimano and KMC have large presence and every REI/ Erics/ peformance bike stores carry these things.

Spitzing Vs Thron:

I and Court reviewed this Spitzing, along with their technical director.
What I like? There is no bike right now in the market that can compete with Spitzing on a pound to pound basis, performance wise (57 Lbs, full carbon fiber, Magura Hydraulics, shift sensor, 48V, 18.3Ah battery...).
Reliability, we'll have to wait and see.
They have been very responsive to all emails. They were present at the Eurobike, Interbike, and also a small event that happened in NJ.
They really want to bring their bikes here and they have new way of shipping bikes to the US.
Flat $200/bike and the bike lands here in the US in 2 days.
I know the Haibike Superrace container got stuck in panama canal for 3 months and we couldn't test them out. What a bummer. Also, their online ordering system is quite unique.

Focus on the other hand, weren't available at any of the US shows and Scott Ritchoff (Focus' CEO for E-bikes) doesn't respond or isn't interested about E-bikes presence in the US.
Newwheel wanted to create a monopoly (remember the TED talk, create your own market, YES) by offering something unique and only they brought these bikes. Good for them.
But what's the point if people can't test ride them even at shows like Interbike?
Newwheel also brought in Felt, instead of dealing with Currie and bringing in Haibikes (Very good bikes though). This is their marketing decision and I have no qualms with that.

I like the Thron Impulse, from the specs, it's great. But I was blown away by the performance of Spitzing. For both me and Chandlee, it was our favorite at the Interbike show.
I have given my honest/critical feedback to M1 Sporttechnik's technical director about things like tire clearance, display, etc and they are going to change it. Will I purchase it? mmm..
Need to think on that. I would love to lease a Chevy Volt or leaf and extend my EV range to true 100+ miles. I have free charging at work

Ravi, if you get a Leaf, it's just another particularly boring car. It doesn't do anything (performance wise) better than any other compact - except give you range anxiety, LOL. I know, I have one at work. The Spitz, OTOH, is a masterpiece of high performance bicycle engineering, as you say, the Ferrari of e-bikes. Do us all a favor and get the Spitz!!

 

[Brambor]

yeah. You owe it to us. It's your turn to be on the bleeding edge ;-)

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi, if you get a Leaf, it's just another particularly boring car. It doesn't do anything (performance wise) better than any other compact - except give you range anxiety, LOL. I know, I have one at work. The Spitz, OTOH, is a masterpiece of high performance bicycle engineering, as you say, the Ferrari of e-bikes. Do us all a favor and get the Spitz!!

Thank you kindly.
I'll try my best. May be a Volt would be a better option. I have been lurking on GM and Tesla forums and everyone is waiting for Model 3 or we'll have to wait n see if Elon unveils his big "D" on October 9th.

 

[Bike_On]

When I spoke to Christina Puello (Haibike USA) at the Interbike, I was told there is no immediate plan to launch FS RS in the US.

Torque:
I think there might be a confusion regarding Torque values and the speed. They are not related. More torque doesn't mean more speed.
Also, a fit 30 something can put out 90Nm of torque easily. Elite athletes can maintain 100+ Nm. Couple of months back, I measured the torque values in a kinesiology lab and my right leg could do 90Nm (my left leg with ACL surgery could do upto 60Nm something)
It is still unclear if the Bosch produces 60Nm at the crank or the derailleur.
60Nm is not a huge value and it is the PEAK output. Dyno graph is a much more reliable source of info this case. How smooth the curve is over different RPM's need to be taken into account as well.

Top of the line Optibikes (the one used in pike's peak challenge), 48V 750W BBS-02 and few other systems can deliver more than 90Nm peak.

I also spent fair amount of time at the KMC and Shimano booths at the Interbike and some of their chains/components are designed for E-bikes and they can easily handle the delivery of extra torque. If its ridden at 85Nm, ALL THE TIME, it will wear out quicker but that's not going to happen under normal circumstances.

So torque limitation is not a factor at all. Also, it shouldn't be a sole criteria for choosing the bike. It's like saying I am going to marry that girl because she has bigg boobies..!! doesn't mean anything.
Stromer ST2 has only ~40Nm but it was a very impressive bike and part of the reason is the refinement of the system. Torque+ Motor power + efficient batter/BMS + design , this overall refinement of the system is critical IMHO.

IGH:

IGH's like Rohloff's are designed for a lot of Torque. Rohloff's have some good reputation and I captured this screenshot from their website.
At 575W, the torque varies between 20Nm to 200Nm. Rohloff's in Optibike R11 should be able to handle this 200Nm PEAK torque.
View attachment 1728

Shimano nexus or Alfine may not be designed with the same intention of off-road use, so torque specs on them could vary.

Throttle:

Bosch is a EU company and it is illegal to have throttle in E-bikes in EU. I am sure it is part of the big reason. US market is just importing bikes from EU and the same no-throttle rule applies here as well. The throttles that are used in Easy Motion and Izip bikes are add-ons at the factory and it costs $10 to add this feature. Australian/EU Easy Motion bikes don't have throttle.

Comparable bikes to Focus Thron Impulse.

I have been eyeing this Focus Throm Impulse for sometime and I think it is a very good bike.
I have found a better alternative. It is called M1 Spitzing. Truly outstanding in terms of power delivery.
48V, 880Wh battery and the motor produces 120Nm of torque. Very impressive ride.
The Cost is very comparable to Focus Thron Speed at $7K. The race pedelec costs more but the speed pedelec is at 7K.

I know that @Electric Bike Specialists , @Crazy Lenny Ebikes and two more Californian dealers will be carrying them.

The Spitzing mid drive has similarity to the European bike, Third Element eSpire. The battery placement is similar, and I expect the M1 is better in many other design factors.
http://www.electricbike.com/third-element-espire-german-off-roader-with-cleanmobile-bb-drive/

Third Elements was buzzing around Euro for a few years, 2010 or so - 2013. It used a Clean Mobile 1300W mid drive. Clean Mobile went belly up and sold out, to Bosch maybe?? I think it never caught on because of all the low-power bike laws and the volume wasn't there.

The battery is very low and forward. A good COG, but I would not like it for off road, log jumping. The Impules 2 system, on the Thron is a much better package, IMO.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The Spitzing mid drive has similarity to the European bike, Third Element eSpire. The battery placement is similar, and I expect the M1 is better in many other design factors.
http://www.electricbike.com/third-element-espire-german-off-roader-with-cleanmobile-bb-drive/

Third Elements was buzzing around Euro for a few years, 2010 or so - 2013. It used a Clean Mobile 1300W mid drive. Clean Mobile went belly up and sold out, to Bosch maybe?? I think it never caught on because of all the low-power bike laws and the volume wasn't there.

The battery is very low and forward. A good COG, but I would not like it for off road, log jumping. The Impules 2 system, on the Thron is a much better package, IMO.

Exactly, Dan.
They provided the drive systems for Third element as well. Third element was amalgamated into TQ systems (http://www.tq-group.com/en/home/)
It is an upgraded drive train I believe.
About the COG and battery being low, I conveyed the exact same feedback.
For someone who wants to use it for true "off-roading", this can be an issue. Their answer was something like, the battery casing is carbon fiber based and it is stronger than the frame. It will be interesting to compare this with Thron impulse once they become available.

 

[Bike_On]

Funny how one changes one's mind with experience. Prior to the purchase of an e-bike I was sure I wanted a speed pedelec with a dual trigger (throttle and torque sensor). I am old and fat and thought that speed and throttle were critical. Now that I have been riding and e-bike for 2 months, I have yet to use the throttle on my bike and clearly understand that 28mph or higher on city streets, or difficult technical trails is both not helpful and downright dangerous. I am a motorcyclist and consider bicycling to be significantly more dangerous due to lack of proper protective gear, seriously underpowered equipment competing with cars, and significant lack tire traction for high speed turns.

Good thoughts 86.

I wish we could take the retro liability out of the equation and treat people more like adults.

Should not the limits be treated more like a car? Just because a car can go 90mph doesn't mean a person should or want to go that fast in many circumstances. They are expected to use judgent and restraint and when they don't, they wreck, get a ticket, and become a liability. I suppose the legality has matured to allow that while ebikes are still immature in that area?

As to speed, some people, like Bosch, are quite comfortable thinking 20 mph is fast enough for where a bike will go and should be limited as such. For me, the physics of a good human electric hybrids allows me to ride comfortably from 25-35mph on smooth roads. Amy faster gets edgy and the power and battery needed to maintain that speed makes the bike heavier and less optimum for diverse riding, imo.

I think the 20 mph is another cost driver for all these low-power, 250-350w, medium bike grade quality offerings. Keeping it 20 and under allows a 10 ahr battery for range, and common components. Going up in speed and weight demands better and costlier designs.

 

[Pace]

Back when the legislation was being drafted that resulted in "low speed electric bicycles" regulation moving from the NHTSA to the CPSC under HR 727, the background section gave a view on the rationale:

Since low-speed electric bicycles are designed not to
exceed the maximum speed of a human-powered bicycle, and they
are typically used in the same manner as human-powered
bicycles, electric bicycles shouldbe regulated in the same
manner and under the same agency (the CPSC) as human-powered bicycles.

So, the kind of bikes the manufacturers seem to be settling on (20mph max under motor alone, with some models providing assist up to 28) are going to fit into that rationale. I'd even by fine if they had to be pedelec only, but I know that is not universal. If however you try to open the flood gates to 40 or 50mph bikes with token pedals I don't think that is going to fly.

 

[Brambor]

agreed. I like the rationale as it was written.

 

[Bike_On]

I 100% agree with the HR727 rational and decision. It is BEST for all to have a 20mph and under class and equate them to regular bicycles and their access and usage, imo.

However, there seems to be a distict second, maybe a third class of ebikes. In that line, several people express a desire to move up in power after riding a 20mph bike for a while. It's like having a 65mph governer on your car. It would get annoying on occasion, andnot acceptable.

To be realistic and conservative, the second tier should be 20-30mph bikes. Europe calls them speed pedelecs, PAS only. PAS, throttle, or both, bikes that top out near 30mph, equating to 500-1200W motors (3/4 to 1.5hp). These are the class of bike many people want, but are in legal limbo in many US states. Above 30mph, and one moves outside standard 48T/11T cassette gearing, and it is difficult to get a system to pedal along with. Exceptions are road bikes with 50/52T chain rings and mid drives with Nuvinci or Rohloff hubs - both are cost drivers.

I'm not an advocate for 40-50mph bikes. But I think we are moving towards a 20-30mph class, maybe a national Moped classification, with some requirments: driver's liscense, liabilty, title, etc.

The DIY 1000W+, and the few 1000W+ OEMs that go 40-50mph (2000W+ mind you here) are classed as off road and ride at risk.

I think the 28mph in PAS mode is a stretch around the current law. We know what's going on... an ebike that can go 20-30mph. Why not change the law and add a throttle then?

IDEALLY, the law would allow 30mph max with 1.5hp for OEM's. Let the local communities control and regulate the streets and bike path speed limits, not the bike manufacturers.

 

[Rich Wolf]

My take on this is that we are lucky to be able to be classified as bicycles and not having to licence our vehicles or pass any driving tests. In my experience with electric bikes, at much over 25 MPH they start to become too fast and the frames, tires and brakes start to get overworked particularly if the rider is heavy the the bike is heavy. At what point will an e-bike have enough torque, and speed? People always want to push the envelope but as speed increases so do the risks and the need for more battery capacity. Look at how heavy electric motorcycles are even with a range of only 50 to 100 miles. That weight takes a lot of amps to get up to speed then the wind resistance sucks even more amps.
If major players start getting too crazy with power and speed then you will soon see the feds jump in and start regulating the heck out of the industry. In my opinion that is the last thing we want to see.
If the bosh motor doesn't have enough power then try out a 750 watt bafang mid drive motor. It has pedal assist modes, is more powerful and has a throttle to boot. Or just wait. I think there will be a lot of retrofit mid drive motors hitting the market in the next few years. My 750 watt bafang mid drive bike easily reaches 30 MPH on the flats and climbs hills easily. I am an avid bicyclist and it has more than enough speed for me.
Plus with the bosh motor we don't really know how much power can be added to it without chewing things up. I would suggest that anyone who wants higher speeds to check out electric motorcycles since they are designed for that from the ground up. 35 to 40 MPH on a bicycle? No thank you!

 

[Brambor]

agreed the point when you don't pedal (using throttle), the bike is heavy as a moped and goes as fast as a moped...that is the moment it s no longer a bicycle and becomes a moped.

The 28mph limit is a good ceiling for ebikes on the road. Anything faster and you should requielre a license to drive it. You don't want kids driving these on the roads without driving license because there is no law for it.