Is there an E-bike Insurer that is not Markel?

[eddy11]

It seems there are dozens of ebike companies in the U.S. but almost all of them are just reselling Markel.

My issue with Markel is they require your bike to be locked to something that is affixed to concrete or stone. My condo has large grid style racks, while not feasible to move would be excluded under the terms of their contract.

I also don't like how essentially their policy is a 1 year contract if your premium is near $100.

The only other non-markel company I could find is Sunday, but that contract in general has several issues and is a no-go.

 

[fooferdoggie]

Bicycle insurance to protect all cyclists | Velosurance

Protect your bicycle or e-bike against theft and accidental damage with bicycle insurance. Medical, liability and vehicle contact coverages are also available.

velosurance.com

 

[Dewey]

Bicycle insurance to protect all cyclists | Velosurance

Protect your bicycle or e-bike against theft and accidental damage with bicycle insurance. Medical, liability and vehicle contact coverages are also available.

velosurance.com

Underwritten by Markel

 

[Dewey]

Insuring Your Electric Bicycle 101 | PeopleForBikes

When Tim Pembroke turned 70 back in 2011, he decided it was time to stop riding a motorcycle and start riding an electric bicycle. His son Nick worked for Everett, Washington-based McClain Insurance for a decade, so Tim asked Nick about insurance for his new ride.

www.peopleforbikes.org

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

My ebike is insured with Allstate.

 

[Sparky731]

I insured through State Farm. No deductible, no depreciation.

 

[Chibbie]

It seems there are dozens of ebike companies in the U.S. but almost all of them are just reselling Markel.

My issue with Markel is they require your bike to be locked to something that is affixed to concrete or stone.

I clearly didn’t read my Velosurance/Markel policy closely enough… Does this “locked to something affixed to concrete or stone” proviso apply when the bike is stored in a garage or only when it is outside of a locked structure? I don’t see how it would be possible to lock one’s bike to something affixed to concrete or stone inside a home or garage.

 

[fooferdoggie]

you get one of these.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009S5YFXG/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[m@Robertson]

My ebike is insured with Allstate.

I insured through State Farm. No deductible, no depreciation.

You can count on these having coverage limitations that a dedicated bike policy does not. But on top of that I have seen coverage denials because of a determination by the claims department that the ebike is a motorized vehicle and thus excluded from coverage. Over and above the coverage limitations, you need to get something in writing from a company underwriter (NOT your agent, even captive agents like with State Farm or Allstate) that your specific ebike is covered.

It seems there are dozens of ebike companies in the U.S. but almost all of them are just reselling Markel.

That is the size of it, yes. Markel is the carrier for almost all of the agents who sell dedicated bike policies in the USA.

My issue with Markel is they require your bike to be locked to something that is affixed to concrete or stone. My condo has large grid style racks, while not feasible to move would be excluded under the terms of their contract.

They aren't bolted down to the ground? If not I think you will be unable to find any carrier that will cover a bike; even a homeowners policy that you decide is satisfactory despite its coverage limitations. Oftentimes homeowners policy riders only cover bikes/ebikes on the residence property in the first place.

I also don't like how essentially their policy is a 1 year contract if your premium is near $100.

I take it you are referring to a minimum premium clause, or perhaps a short rate cancellation provision? Here again I don't think thats going to be something you are going to be able to work around. The idea behind that sort of thing is to earn a minimum level of premium after doing the underwriting/issuance work. Plus, if your goal is to only buy short term insurance I don't think you will find many takers.

The only other non-markel company I could find is Sunday, but that contract in general has several issues and is a no-go.

I have read the Sundays Insurance contract and considered it completely unacceptable on a variety of bases. It has numerous escape routes in the Exclusions section - some of which I considered underhanded. Also it is an Actual Cash Value policy which translates to 'depreciation' to the layman (Markel is now advertising replacement cost basis. It used to be Stated Value with claims paid as if it is an Agreed Value. Much better than Sundays). Somewhere here in another thread I did a fairly detailed writeup on where a number of the Sundays land mines are found.

There is one other carrier out there in the USA. I forget who exactly. But I do remember they had the requirement of the bike being locked to an anchored object.

After a fair bit of searching and discussion with an underwriter as well as one of the agency principals at Velosurance, I went with them. But if you have no way to anchor the bike down, you're out of luck there.

 

[m@Robertson]

I clearly didn’t read my Velosurance/Markel policy closely enough… Does this “locked to something affixed to concrete or stone” proviso apply when the bike is stored in a garage or only when it is outside of a locked structure? I don’t see how it would be possible to lock one’s bike to something affixed to concrete or stone inside a home or garage.

https://velosurance.com/vss3/specimen_policy.pdf

Immovable Object is defined on Page 1. So is Insured Location, which is typically your home.

On page 5 of 10, Exclusion #1 applies to your question. they will not pay for...

theft of any insured bicycle without signs of forcible entry from the insured location or, if a theft occurs away from the insured location and the insured bicycle is not properly secured to an immovable object with an appropriate security locking device

The lock+immovable object clause doesn't kick in unless the bike is away from your home.

So, if its at home, there has to be some sign of forcible entry to gain access to the bike. A jimmied door or something. If you think this through, if you have a situation where the bike is in your back yard, and someone just walks through the gate and rolls it away, you are out of luck. If on the other hand you had it locked and there is a cut up lock on the ground, that may satisfy the requirement. This is the sort of what-if you would want to have confirmed or rejected by a company underwriter and NOT an agent.

In my case, the bike is in my garage and all doors are locked. If someone gets in, they would have done so by breaking in so I'm not bolting the bike to the floor with a chain and ground anchor.

 

[eddy11]

You can count on these having coverage limitations that a dedicated bike policy does not. But on top of that I have seen coverage denials because of a determination by the claims department that the ebike is a motorized vehicle and thus excluded from coverage. Over and above the coverage limitations, you need to get something in writing from a company underwriter (NOT your agent, even captive agents like with State Farm or Allstate) that your specific ebike is covered.


That is the size of it, yes. Markel is the carrier for almost all of the agents who sell dedicated bike policies in the USA.

They aren't bolted down to the ground? If not I think you will be unable to find any carrier that will cover a bike; even a homeowners policy that you decide is satisfactory despite its coverage limitations. Oftentimes homeowners policy riders only cover bikes/ebikes on the residence property in the first place.

I take it you are referring to a minimum premium clause, or perhaps a short rate cancellation provision? Here again I don't think thats going to be something you are going to be able to work around. The idea behind that sort of thing is to earn a minimum level of premium after doing the underwriting/issuance work. Plus, if your goal is to only buy short term insurance I don't think you will find many takers.

I have read the Sundays Insurance contract and considered it completely unacceptable on a variety of bases. It has numerous escape routes in the Exclusions section - some of which I considered underhanded. Also it is an Actual Cash Value policy which translates to 'depreciation' to the layman (Markel is now advertising replacement cost basis. It used to be Stated Value with claims paid as if it is an Agreed Value. Much better than Sundays). Somewhere here in another thread I did a fairly detailed writeup on where a number of the Sundays land mines are found.

There is one other carrier out there in the USA. I forget who exactly. But I do remember they had the requirement of the bike being locked to an anchored object.

After a fair bit of searching and discussion with an underwriter as well as one of the agency principals at Velosurance, I went with them. But if you have no way to anchor the bike down, you're out of luck there.

Yeah they aren't bolted, it's like this but gravity held https://www.uline.com/Product/Detai...5SWyETrJdrDt4LCBdyRcZ82YIpqLfufxoCgjUQAvD_BwE

It's in the lower level of an underground parking garage. In theory the right team could carry it upstairs with all the bikes attached, take it outside , throw it into a box truck. Though in practice a bike chain locked to that is probably more secure than many other Market approved methods. Like a flexible-cable lock to metal fence outside or something. Not to mention it would probably be "easier" to just angle grind the locks or the bike rack itself.

My homeowners insurance just says "reasonable precauations to prevent theft", and IMO it's reasonable, though I guess I'm not the adjuster lol. Unfortunately my homeowners insurance wont cover it anyways because of the motor, unless it qualifies as an "electric toy vehicle" . I wrote to them to confirm this, but I suspect it means those 4 wheeled cars that six year olds drive.

My biggest beef with Sundays (I likely found the same ones you did) is it's secondary- so presumably to even claim you have to file against your homeowners first. Half the point of bike insurance is to avoid that!

The $100 earned premium isn't the end of the world, but it annoys me that it resets every year. Things change, and I don't like the idea that if in 12.5 months, 24.5 months, etc. I need to sell the bike- I lose my entire premium.

 

[m@Robertson]

My biggest beef with Sundays (I likely found the same ones you did) is it's secondary- so presumably to even claim you have to file against your homeowners first. Half the point of bike insurance is to avoid that!

I actually missed that one. Thats ridiculous. But its right in character with all the other BS I found in the policy language.

The $100 earned premium isn't the end of the world, but it annoys me that it resets every year. Things change, and I don't like the idea that if in 12.5 months, 24.5 months, etc. I need to sell the bike- I lose my entire premium.

Yeah minimum premium works like that. For me, I have some very expensive bikes on my policy so I am paying I think $60 a month, so I'm over the minimum in two months. I leave mine out at shops since they are cargo bikes so for me the cost is well worth it.

I do take the precaution of always photographing the bike before I go walking in to a store to verify it was locked, in case of a claim. Since I built the thing frame-up I would absolutely NOT want to get my money out of the bike as its a fraction of what I had to put into it to get the thing transformed from a pile of parts and materials to a functioning bicycle.

Larry vs Harry Bullitt Hill Hauler, Back-to-Front Part 3

In this installment we’ll spend all of our time looking at the battery box and the separate controller/charger box that are both hiding under the cargo floor.

talesontwowheels.com

 

[Sparky731]

You can count on these having coverage limitations that a dedicated bike policy does not. But on top of that I have seen coverage denials because of a determination by the claims department that the ebike is a motorized vehicle and thus excluded from coverage. Over and above the coverage limitations, you need to get something in writing from a company underwriter (NOT your agent, even captive agents like with State Farm or Allstate) that your specific ebike is covered.

Your assumptions are incorrect. My State Farm policy covers the retail price paid including purchased add-ons, for the life of the policy. Covers stolen without stipulations, e.g. being locked within my garage. Covers repairs back to retail price paid. This is not under my home owners policy which would have a deductible and depreciation. And, my homeowners policy covers liabilities.

 

[m@Robertson]

Your assumptions are incorrect. My State Farm policy covers the retail price paid including purchased add-ons, for the life of the policy. Covers stolen without stipulations, e.g. being locked within my garage. Covers repairs back to retail price paid. This is not under my home owners policy which would have a deductible and depreciation. And, my homeowners policy covers liabilities.

Make sure it covers the bike from theft at any location, not just on the residence premises. And accident damage at any location. Make sure your exact ebike is covered and there is not an exclusion associated with its motorization. I saw one once where the claims denial was due to the bike being solely electrically powered, but the fact that it had pedals made that impossible. Last I heard the insured was trying to figure out a way to appeal the decision.

Don't use an insurance agent - even a captive agent which is what a State Farm agent is - for a coverage determination. Insist on an opinion in writing from an underwriter. Agents want to be able to answer questions and they may feel they know the answer but the company is under no obligation to agree with them. Rreferrals to underwriters happen all the time and I have never seen a response that wasn't an honest, serious answer to a policyholder's question. And when you ask the question, you need to provide that underwriter with complete background, so a link to the product page of your bike for instance.

I'm a licensed insurance agent myself and I have seen people get burned time and again on the ebike coverage issue.

 

[eddy11]

Surprisingly I heard back from my homeowners policy, and the underwriters confirmed in writing that they would consider my e-bike covered personal property. And for ~$80 extra a year I could schedule it and remove the deductible altogether specific to the ebike.

 

[Sparky731]

Make sure it covers the bike from theft at any location, not just on the residence premises. And accident damage at any location. Make sure your exact ebike is covered and there is not an exclusion associated with its motorization. I saw one once where the claims denial was due to the bike being solely electrically powered, but the fact that it had pedals made that impossible. Last I heard the insured was trying to figure out a way to appeal the decision.

Don't use an insurance agent - even a captive agent which is what a State Farm agent is - for a coverage determination. Insist on an opinion in writing from an underwriter. Agents want to be able to answer questions and they may feel they know the answer but the company is under no obligation to agree with them. Rreferrals to underwriters happen all the time and I have never seen a response that wasn't an honest, serious answer to a policyholder's question. And when you ask the question, you need to provide that underwriter with complete background, so a link to the product page of your bike for instance.

I'm a licensed insurance agent myself and I have seen people get burned time and again on the ebike coverage issue.

It is a State Farm Personal Articles Policy. As an insurance agent you should recognize it or may be aware of it. It is used for valuables, e.g., jewelry, etc.
A bit pricey, but total coverage.

Everything I claimed above is within the policy.

 

[Art Deco]

Just following this thread ... will comment on insurance as I can.

 

[m@Robertson]

As an insurance agent you should recognize it or may be aware of it. It is used for valuables, e.g., jewelry, etc.

Everything I claimed above is within the policy.

No. State Farm uses what are called 'manuscript' policies, so they are not based on the industry-standard ISO language. Thats only done by companies so big they can defend a word-for-word rewrite of the policy language to a state's Dept. of Insurance filing analyst. That is someone who reviews the contract forms and decides if they will be allowed for use in that state.

Plus, State Farm uses what are called 'captive' agents... essentially they tend to be representing State Farm primarily, oftentimes exclusively. The knowledge base for a SF agent tends to be more company-centric as a result, and since to be one of their agents you more or less have to be dedicated to that one company, I don't work with their policies.

But I have seen some of them, while trying to help people through claims disagreements with the company. Check this out. This came from a State Farm policy and it is an excerpt of how they will determine a loss value. There's lots of language in it that sounds reasonable until you realize the red-underlined stuff is all that matters, and it translates to "we'll pay what we want to", quite literally. You would NEVER see language like this in a policy based on industry-standard language.

So... read your policy. All of it. Look for carve-outs like this, and better yet get an expert's take on it (a Company underwriter). They won't lie to you, but at the same time you have to be very clear in your questioning.

 

[Sparky731]

No. State Farm uses what are called 'manuscript' policies, so they are not based on the industry-standard ISO language. Thats only done by companies so big they can defend a word-for-word rewrite of the policy language to a state's Dept. of Insurance filing analyst. That is someone who reviews the contract forms and decides if they will be allowed for use in that state.

Plus, State Farm uses what are called 'captive' agents... essentially they tend to be representing State Farm primarily, oftentimes exclusively. The knowledge base for a SF agent tends to be more company-centric as a result, and since to be one of their agents you more or less have to be dedicated to that one company, I don't work with their policies.

But I have seen some of them, while trying to help people through claims disagreements with the company. Check this out. This came from a State Farm policy and it is an excerpt of how they will determine a loss value. There's lots of language in it that sounds reasonable until you realize the red-underlined stuff is all that matters, and it translates to "we'll pay what we want to", quite literally. You would NEVER see language like this in a policy based on industry-standard language.

So... read your policy. All of it. Look for carve-outs like this, and better yet get an expert's take on it (a Company underwriter). They won't lie to you, but at the same time you have to be very clear in your questioning.

View attachment 156669

Maybe I just have a very good insurance agent. FYI, I did not renew the policy because I do not consider the risk of loss to be very significant.

 

[2fortheRoad]

https://velosurance.com/vss3/specimen_policy.pdf

Immovable Object is defined on Page 1. So is Insured Location, which is typically your home.

On page 5 of 10, Exclusion #1 applies to your question. they will not pay for...

The lock+immovable object clause doesn't kick in unless the bike is away from your home.

So, if its at home, there has to be some sign of forcible entry to gain access to the bike. A jimmied door or something. If you think this through, if you have a situation where the bike is in your back yard, and someone just walks through the gate and rolls it away, you are out of luck. If on the other hand you had it locked and there is a cut up lock on the ground, that may satisfy the requirement. This is the sort of what-if you would want to have confirmed or rejected by a company underwriter and NOT an agent.

In my case, the bike is in my garage and all doors are locked. If someone gets in, they would have done so by breaking in so I'm not bolting the bike to the floor with a chain and ground anchor.

Surprisingly I heard back from my homeowners policy, and the underwriters confirmed in writing that they would consider my e-bike covered personal property. And for ~$80 extra a year I could schedule it and remove the deductible altogether specific to the ebike.

Can you share which insurance company this is please?