Is anyone trying to solve charging on the road?

[tomjasz]

theres really no point in engaging with someone as headstrong and unwilling to consider another view. You are the odd man out, and wrong on so many counts. But trying to have a discussion and then reading the veiled insults just ended any interest in my continuing. Enjoy the ride.

 

[BBassett]

[of course not. Paul worked closely with d-Powercore and developed a superior BMS. but yours is not a typical battery BMS. I can’t imagine them dumbing down a product as advanced and useful.

Yeah... that's what I was pointing out, of course they don't. I think maybe it should be the other way 'round, Tom. Not dumbing anything down, but rather putting a superior BMS in every lithium pack... regardless of how small they are. And any pack handmade should require a permit and a flashing danger sign, maybe even an audible warning tone whenever charged. Of course, it's not just the BMS, larger packs of cells can accept a higher amperage charging faster without stressing the pack before the BMS ever has to start evening out the cells.

 

[BBassett]

theres really no point in engaging with someone as headstrong and unwilling to consider another view. You are the odd man out, and wrong on so many counts. But trying to have a discussion and then reading the veiled insults just ended any interest in my continuing. Enjoy the ride.

Not sure who you were replying to but if it's me, let me say this... sorry Tom. You were the one that pointed out to me that you had thick skin. "Old curmudgeon" was the term you used I think. Anyway, I agree with you on most things and have sought your advice several times, so I'm at a loss of what we would (or have )disagree on, other than how selling something shouldn't change one's true opinion of the item. Again and whole-heartedly... ride safe.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

You do use batteries that were sold with the bike right? If you point out your "spare" battery is charged to 80%, does that mean the others are charged more or less? If it's more... you are doing a disservice to the packs and reducing their effective lives. If it's less... ah, why? The best thing for Lithium packs is charging to 80%, depleting to 20% and rotating the batteries equally. One of my batteries has more watt-hours than all three of yours put together but you can't juggled with it. As "easy" as it is charging with the battery (batteries) on the bike, and I do enjoy it when I can, temperature makes that impossible at times even "here" in the PNW. Unless you bring your bike into a heated space. If range is important to you maybe next time start with a frame that can hold a minimum of a 30Ah pack, or wait another decade for the new generation of lithium-oxygen batteries.

Actually two batteries were sold with the bike and one was purchased later, as I realized it would be helpful for some trips I was planning.

My understanding of the physics of how Li-Ion batteries charge is that what causes most of the damage to the cells is not "charging them above 80 percent" but rather storing them for extended periods above 80 percent or below 20 percent. So in my personal case while on journey I feel it is a reasonable tradeoff to shorten my battery life but have longer range.

I've had my bike for two full seasons now and am only noticing a very slight (like less than 5 percent) reduction in range. The difference is small enough that it is hard to say whether it is caused by a difference in riding style or different terrain or road surfaces. Different tires and different weather conditions still make far more difference than the age of the battery pack.

From my point of view, by the time those batteries are useless I'll probably want newer batteries anyway, hopefully in the same form factor, that have higher capacity.

Also, I find the smaller 500wh battery packs are more practical for the kinds of trips I do, and they fit comfortably in panniers while on journey. Most of the larger batteries I've seen would barely fit in my panniers and are heavy enough that it would become a real challenge to pack a balanced load on the bike.

All I am describing here is what works well for me. Maybe others will have different experiences. That's okay. Just ride your own ride.

 

[BBassett]

Actually two batteries were sold with the bike and one was purchased later, as I realized it would be helpful for some trips I was planning.

My understanding of the physics of how Li-Ion batteries charge is that what causes most of the damage to the cells is not "charging them above 80 percent" but rather storing them for extended periods above 80 percent or below 20 percent. So in my personal case while on journey I feel it is a reasonable tradeoff to shorten my battery life but have longer range.

I've had my bike for two full seasons now and am only noticing a very slight (like less than 5 percent) reduction in range. The difference is small enough that it is hard to say whether it is caused by a difference in riding style or different terrain or road surfaces. Different tires and different weather conditions still make far more difference than the age of the battery pack.

From my point of view, by the time those batteries are useless I'll probably want newer batteries anyway, hopefully in the same form factor, that have higher capacity.

Also, I find the smaller 500wh battery packs are more practical for the kinds of trips I do, and they fit comfortably in panniers while on journey. Most of the larger batteries I've seen would barely fit in my panniers and are heavy enough that it would become a real challenge to pack a balanced load on the bike.

All I am describing here is what works well for me. Maybe others will have different experiences. That's okay. Just ride your own ride.

Yes, you are correct (to a point), charging to 80% and not depleting lower than 20% will greatly extend the packs life, the number of recharge cycles. Think of a 30Ah pack and how many rides you would get out of it, now multiply that times 3 if you only use 60% of its capacity before recharging. I'd like to point out that a single large battery tucked into the triangle (nice and low) is barely noticeable... once you get used to it. Keep the panniers empty for gear, clothes, food, rum.

Ride safe.

 

[Ebiker01]

Well supercApacitors with lithium packs are coming soon and that will make out Li ion packs charging in 30-46min completely obsolete and vastly inferior .
It’s sad and good in the same time...

Nawa Will Introduce A Sleek Hybrid Electric Motorbike At CES

NAWA, a company that specializes in ultracapacitors, is showcasing its electric hybrid technologies in the NAWA Racer it debuts at CES 2020.

www.rideapart.com

 

[BBassett]

Well supercApacitors with lithium packs are coming soon and that will make out Li ion packs charging in 30-46min completely obsolete and vastly inferior .
It’s sad and good in the same time...

Nawa Will Introduce A Sleek Hybrid Electric Motorbike At CES

NAWA, a company that specializes in ultracapacitors, is showcasing its electric hybrid technologies in the NAWA Racer it debuts at CES 2020.

www.rideapart.com

Soon is a relative thing to someone picking up speed on the way down the hill of life. A multi-voltage capacitance system would be amazing even if it weighed the same as lithium pack if it could recharge in minutes versus hours. But I don't want a requirement of 220V to be able to use it either. I will put my current lithium pack to another use as soon as I can obtain and afford them... if I ever see them at all.

 

[tomjasz]

are coming soon

I wish I believed soon was in my lifetime. Statistically, that's just another decade. Soon for a 40-year-old might be more hopeful. We can read about all sorts of battery technology "coming soon" but when will we see it in our eBike world?

Great link, thanks!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Check out this video at about 7:53 -- now that is a styling on-the-road charging solution!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

.. also this video, especially showing the luxury accommodations for bikers and e-bikers (around 11:07) at many Oregon State Parks:

This dude seems to spend more time charging and looking for a charge than riding...

 

[Mr. Coffee]

I'm kind of saddened that this thread seems to have devolved into a discussion about fast charging, huge battery packs, and super capacitors.

I am going out and doing long-distance bike tours with the gear I have. Honestly, If you just get out and ride you can make this work with most any bike. All it will require is a bit of resourcefulness, some planning, and the ability to politely ask people to use an outlet. None of this is very difficult.

In 2018 and 2019 I went on two long tours (more than ten days) each year and about a half-dozen or so shorter tours. I didn't need a 30AH battery or a fast charger and won't for the tours I will do in 2020 either.

 

[tomjasz]

Check out this video at about 7:53 -- now that is a styling on-the-road charging solution!

With a trusty Satiator!

 

[dblhelix]

I didn't need a 30AH battery or a fast charger and won't for the tours I will do in 2020 either.

This is a meaningless statement. Charging infrastructure varies regionally. In the Upper Midwest, I don’t need the third battery. Just as the Amish find their hitching posts, I find outlets with ease. Worst-case scenario: every Casey’s, Kwik Stop etc has an external outlet. OTOH, in the Mountain West, 75-120 miles w/o services was the norm. There are also occasions where significant time is spent off-road.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

This is a meaningless statement. Charging infrastructure varies regionally. In the Upper Midwest, I don’t need the third battery. Just as the Amish find their hitching posts, I find outlets with ease. Worst-case scenario: every Casey’s, Kwik Stop etc has an external outlet. OTOH, in the Mountain West, 75-120 miles w/o services was the norm. There are also occasions where significant time is spent off-road.

This is obviously where "planning" comes in. Obviously if you are trying to cover distances of 75+ miles in mountainous terrain without services or charging options you will need to either carry more batteries or have some kind of off-grid charging system.

My point is there are lots of great bike tours to be had where you don't (or don't necessarily) have those constraints, and it is more important to get out than it is to wait for some hypothetical optimum solution.

 

[Handlebars]

Yes, you are correct (to a point), charging to 80% and not depleting lower than 20% will greatly extend the packs life, the number of recharge cycles. Think of a 30Ah pack and how many rides you would get out of it, now multiply that times 3 if you only use 60% of its capacity before recharging. I'd like to point out that a single large battery tucked into the triangle (nice and low) is barely noticeable... once you get used to it. Keep the panniers empty for gear, clothes, food, rum.

Ride safe.

I'm seeing a difference in wording that leaves me unsure of which it is: is it the charging and discharging all the way that reduces lifespan or the storage at extremes that does it?
Especially at the lower end is where I think I can see the light, so to speak; discharging a cell to nominal voltage of 3.6 or 3.7 shouldn't punish the battery. I am guessing that the warning is in regard to the long time storage where it could sink to levels that are not good. With regard to the
high charge it isn't clear.

 

[BBassett]

I'm seeing a difference in wording that leaves me unsure of which it is: is it the charging and discharging all the way that reduces lifespan or the storage at extremes that does it?
Especially at the lower end is where I think I can see the light, so to speak; discharging a cell to nominal voltage of 3.6 or 3.7 shouldn't punish the battery. I am guessing that the warning is in regard to the long time storage where it could sink to levels that are not good. With regard to the
high charge it isn't clear.

I am to understand that using more than 60% of a packs capacity on a regular basis, i.e., charging the pack full and depleting it under 20% shortens the number of recharge cycles possible. With my 52V packs that charge to 100% @ 58.8V... I discharge them to 45.5V or 20% of the packs capacity using no more than 60% total capacity the vast majority of the time. Fast charging packs beyond their ability will build heat and stresses the cells. Over depleting the pack stresses the cells. High-temperature use and low-temperature charging can both damage the cells. Whenever I am riding at temps below 35 degs. F I place two USB foot warmers on either side of the pack inside the zip bag. Usage of a Satiator allows you to charge to a specific voltage at whatever amperage you like from 2A to 8A. I have no experience with storing packs but I have read that storing them at 2/3 capacity for short periods of time is best.

 

[Mass Deduction]

I'm seeing a difference in wording that leaves me unsure of which it is: is it the charging and discharging all the way that reduces lifespan or the storage at extremes that does it?
Especially at the lower end is where I think I can see the light, so to speak; discharging a cell to nominal voltage of 3.6 or 3.7 shouldn't punish the battery. I am guessing that the warning is in regard to the long time storage where it could sink to levels that are not good. With regard to the
high charge it isn't clear.

Both are true. Charging above 80% reduces a battery's life, and keeping it there for a while further reduces its life. Leaving it charged above 80% is more damaging than charging it above 80%.

There is no debate that babying a battery will give you extra service life from it. However, there is debate about how many extra charges you get from babying a battery. So option 1, charge it and use it. You'll get hundreds of good charges, and it will be convenient.

Option 2, get the biggest pack you can (to make it easier to use only the middle chunk of the battery's potential, while still having enough juice to enjoy yourself), and use a wall timer to help make sure that you're cutting the power approximately when it's hitting 70-80%. If you do plan a big ride that needs a fully charged battery, finish topping it up to 100% right before the ride, so that it's not sitting at that charge level for a long time. If you're using the battery in cold weather, let it come up to room temperature before charging, as charging the battery cold is also not ideal.

Option 3, is option 2 plus investing in a high-end charger like a Satiator, if one is available for your battery/charger plug type. It's an expensive option, but it makes it easier to charge it correctly.

I went with Option 2, myself. The wall timer is inexpensive, and easy to use once you know approximately how fast your charger charges the battery. For example, with a 4A charger and a 500Wh battery, I find that it charges 1% of the battery in about 2 minutes. So if you are down at 25% you'd set it to charge for 100 minutes (an hour and 40 minutes) to get it to a 75% charge. That kind of thing.

 

[GypsyTreker]

Both are true. Charging above 80% reduces a battery's life, and keeping it there for a while further reduces its life. Leaving it charged above 80% is more damaging than charging it above 80%.

There is no debate that babying a battery will give you extra service life from it. However, there is debate about how many extra charges you get from babying a battery. So option 1, charge it and use it. You'll get hundreds of good charges, and it will be convenient.

Option 2, get the biggest pack you can (to make it easier to use only the middle chunk of the battery's potential, while still having enough juice to enjoy yourself), and use a wall timer to help make sure that you're cutting the power approximately when it's hitting 70-80%. If you do plan a big ride that needs a fully charged battery, finish topping it up to 100% right before the ride, so that it's not sitting at that charge level for a long time. If you're using the battery in cold weather, let it come up to room temperature before charging, as charging the battery cold is also not ideal.

Option 3, is option 2 plus investing in a high-end charger like a Satiator, if one is available for your battery/charger plug type. It's an expensive option, but it makes it easier to charge it correctly.

I went with Option 2, myself. The wall timer is inexpensive, and easy to use once you know approximately how fast your charger charges the battery. For example, with a 4A charger and a 500Wh battery, I find that it charges 1% of the battery in about 2 minutes. So if you are down at 25% you'd set it to charge for 100 minutes (an hour and 40 minutes) to get it to a 75% charge. That kind of thing.

Thanks Mass.......you just simplified this for me. I have a 500w 36v battery. I too want to get a couple of overnighters in at some point. I like your simple approach. I bought our Ecotric's as betas. If they perform satisfactory, they win.

I was going to try to do some range testing two weeks ago the wind and temp was not in our favor. This weekend and next week looks promising. Anyway, simplicity, understanding real needs vs max performance that might never be required. Have you notated distance using PAS at say 12-15mph? No hills

 

[Mass Deduction]

Thanks Mass.......you just simplified this for me. I have a 500w 36v battery. I too want to get a couple of overnighters in at some point. I like your simple approach. I bought our Ecotric's as betas. If they perform satisfactory, they win.

I was going to try to do some range testing two weeks ago the wind and temp was not in our favor. This weekend and next week looks promising. Anyway, simplicity, understanding real needs vs max performance that might never be required. Have you notated distance using PAS at say 12-15mph? No hills

I'm glad I was able to help simplify things.

I haven't spent a lot of time riding at the speeds you asked about, but I hope to do a longer/slower ride at a lower level of assist (with the max cut-out set at 25 km/h, which is close to 15 mph). Sometime this month, if the weather holds and I can get the time off work that is!

 

[dblhelix]

My point is there are lots of great bike tours to be had where you don't (or don't necessarily) have those constraints, and it is more important to get out than it is to wait for some hypothetical optimum solution.

Hypothetical only if you’re riding Bosch/Yamaha. The large packs and fast chargers mentioned in this thread appear to already exist for other users .

I see no problem with walking and chewing gum at the same time. I can like my Bosch bike on shorter trips but also advocate for needed extensions to functionality according to my priorities.